Cornering basics 2 Assessing a bend without the limit point
Discussion
TripleS said:
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
Indeed so. One driving style that I very much enjoy is making rapid progress without the use of brakes, merely lifting off early, perhaps with a downchange in a few cases before a bend or a downhill section. Yes, I know about 'brakes to slow, gears to go' but it's not completely mandatory yet - is it?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
There is nothing wrong with getting the correct speed on acceleration sense & then taking an appropriate gear for that new speed without any braking. In many situations it may be considered optimal.
vonhosen said:
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
I actually say on 2 way roads it's more like 1/2 way & 1/3 for single track roads.
Sounds like you need to get your foot down more when you exit a bend!
flemke said:
vonhosen said:
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
I actually say on 2 way roads it's more like 1/2 way & 1/3 for single track roads.
Sounds like you need to get your foot down more when you exit a bend!
Or alternatively you aren't making much progress between them
7db said:
Reg, Right-handers are something I'm working on. Where would your throttle be throughout this corner?
The throttle would be pinned to the floor from the point where I passed the NSL signs in the previous post - death before deceleration!
In reality, once I was happy that my speed and gear were correct for the bend, I'd apply the throttle just as I started turning the wheel. A little at first, to settle the car into the bend, and then increasing the pressure until I was accelerating quite firmly out of the bend, onto the next straight.
rich 36 said:
Point taken I'm sure,
although I think a Sptfire downed in the road a bit unlikely,
although I think a Sptfire downed in the road a bit unlikely,
You're right - there's not that many Spitfires left these days. I notice you didn't argue about the Japanese sniper or the French couple though. Must be some interesting roads where you live!
vonhosen said:
flemke said:
vonhosen said:
flemke said:
TripleS said:
Yes I think we've heard that sort of recommendation previously, but does it not depend on the length of the straight, the nature of the second bend, the power of the car etc., and who knows what else?
This is indeed the case.
I've just been surprised at the frequency with which the advice seemed to suit a wide range of circumstances.
It can be an illuminating yet benign driving exercise to try to get entry speed right with only a brake-less lift whilst nonetheless making good progress.
I actually say on 2 way roads it's more like 1/2 way & 1/3 for single track roads.
Sounds like you need to get your foot down more when you exit a bend!
Or alternatively you aren't making much progress between them
Hmmm...
If you're not making as much progress between bends,
and you're not braking into the bend,
but entering bend at correct speed,
that can only happen (apart from using clutch to decelerate)
if you're going more slowly but lifting later,
as in your 1/2 way lift example.
R_U_LOCAL said:
The throttle would be pinned to the floor from the point where I passed the NSL signs in the previous post - death before deceleration!
Doughnuts affecting the power-to-weight ratio?
R_U_LOCAL said:
In reality, once I was happy that my speed and gear were correct for the bend, I'd apply the throttle just as I started turning the wheel. A little at first, to settle the car into the bend, and then increasing the pressure until I was accelerating quite firmly out of the bend, onto the next straight.
Does that mean a no-to-neutral throttle at turn-in and steadily rising to full as the lock comes off?
7db said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
In reality, once I was happy that my speed and gear were correct for the bend, I'd apply the throttle just as I started turning the wheel. A little at first, to settle the car into the bend, and then increasing the pressure until I was accelerating quite firmly out of the bend, onto the next straight.
Does that mean a no-to-neutral throttle at turn-in and steadily rising to full as the lock comes off?
The initial turn of the wheel should be accompanied with a squeeze on the throttle. Imagine the steering wheel and accelerator are linked, so that turning the wheel applies pressure to the throttle.
R_U_LOCAL said:
7db said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
In reality, once I was happy that my speed and gear were correct for the bend, I'd apply the throttle just as I started turning the wheel. A little at first, to settle the car into the bend, and then increasing the pressure until I was accelerating quite firmly out of the bend, onto the next straight.
Does that mean a no-to-neutral throttle at turn-in and steadily rising to full as the lock comes off?
The initial turn of the wheel should be accompanied with a squeeze on the throttle. Imagine the steering wheel and accelerator are linked, so that turning the wheel applies pressure to the throttle.
That's clear (and although 7db did tee himself up for a flippant response, he also deserved a proper answer) but I'd be interested in exploring this a bit more with you...
You will often (though not in the corner you've illustrated) make an initial turn of the wheel before the limit point starts to run / recede. This could be argued to be the most "risky" part of the corner...
- per Roadcraft, speed and gear are set but the available stopping distance (defined by the limit point) is still diminishing
- while the limit point is still advancing, the bend may still sharpen (cf. driving in Luxemburg)
- having turned the steering wheel you have reduced your ability to stop the car (cf. driving an Alfa 75)
- having picked up the drive, weight transfer will further reduce your ability to stop (cf. driving an old 911)
In such cases, I'm an exponent and advocate of trail braking until the limit point starts to run. My intent is to use the technique as part of a planned approach and as an aid to safety, rather than as a band aid to cover up for poor bend assessment.
I'd be interested in your thoughts...
WilliBetz
Edited by willibetz on Thursday 5th April 10:19
willibetz said:
That's clear (and although 7db did tee himself up for a flippant response, he also deserved a proper answer) but I'd be interested in exploring this a bit more with you...
You will often (though not in the corner you've illustrated) make an initial turn of the wheel before the limit point starts to run / recede. This could be argued to be the most "risky" part of the corner...
- per Roadcraft, speed and gear are set but the available stopping distance (defined by the limit point) is still diminishing
- while the limit point is still advancing, the bend may still sharpen (cf. driving in Luxemburg)
- having turned the steering wheel you have reduced your ability to stop the car (cf. driving an Alfa 75)
- having picked up the drive, weight transfer will further reduce your ability to stop (cf. driving an old 911)
In such cases, I'm an exponent and advocate of trail braking until the limit point starts to run. My intent is to use the technique as part of a planned approach and as an aid to safety, rather than as a band aid to cover up for poor bend assessment.
I'd be interested in your thoughts...
WilliBetz
You will often (though not in the corner you've illustrated) make an initial turn of the wheel before the limit point starts to run / recede. This could be argued to be the most "risky" part of the corner...
- per Roadcraft, speed and gear are set but the available stopping distance (defined by the limit point) is still diminishing
- while the limit point is still advancing, the bend may still sharpen (cf. driving in Luxemburg)
- having turned the steering wheel you have reduced your ability to stop the car (cf. driving an Alfa 75)
- having picked up the drive, weight transfer will further reduce your ability to stop (cf. driving an old 911)
In such cases, I'm an exponent and advocate of trail braking until the limit point starts to run. My intent is to use the technique as part of a planned approach and as an aid to safety, rather than as a band aid to cover up for poor bend assessment.
I'd be interested in your thoughts...
WilliBetz
You're making the mistake that many people make in thinking about cornering, and you're getting track thoughts and techniques mixed up with a road driving mentality.
On the road, there are so many variables, that, although spirited driving is fine, you should rarely be approaching the cars limits. If you're using the limit point to assess the bend, you'll be bringing your speed down so that it matches what the limit point is doing - as you get closer and closer to the limit point, your speed should continue to drop until you're happy that you've assessed the tightness of the bend correctly.
However, you don't just use the limit point on the approach to the corner - it should be continually reassessed because, as you've pointed out, corners can tighten up. The Roadcraft system (if that's your chosen method) copes nicely with this by stating that if information changes (i.e. the limit point shows that the corner is tightening), then you can revert back to the start and readjust your position/speed/gear if necessary. You can't be absolutely sure about a blind corner until it starts straightening up, so you should always have this option in reserve. That means that, on corners in which the only way to assess, due to a poor view, is with the limit point, then you should always have a little in reserve. If you keep that bit in reserve, then the fact that your braking capabilities have been reduced when you turn the wheel won't be as important - you should still have enough tyre grip left to stop the car if you need to.
That's not to say you shouldn't be on the gas as you enter the corner - you only need to squeeze the throttle enough to maintain your chosen speed into the corner and keep the car nicely balanced. As you move round the bend, your continual reassessment of the limit point and any other information will let you know when it's opening up, and therefore when you can start pressing the accelerator more firmly.
Trail braking is a good track technique, but not for the reason you've mentioned - keeping the brakes on past the point of turn-in creates extra front-end grip just when it's needed, but again, that's a technique best suited to the track, which allows a driver to take a little extra speed into a corner, settle the car through the corner, and then, hopefully, carry a few extra MPH onto the next straight. These are the priorities of a track driver though, and not a road driver.
Staying on the brakes into a corner until you're sure of how tight a bend is has a couple of problems.
Firstly, it will often mean that you're then taking a lower gear to suit your speed, whilst you're still turning the wheel. This isn't ideal - I always like to have speed and gear completely sorted out before entering a corner to maintain maximum balance through the corner.
Which is where the second problem comes in. If you're travelling along at a constant speed in a straight line, and you turn the wheel, the forces acting on the car and the additional lateral grip will slow the car slightly. To keep optimum balance in a car whilst cornering, you should apply at least enough throttle to maintain your speed and counteract that natural tendency for the car to scrub speed off. If you keep the brakes on whilst entering a corner, you're doing the opposite, and demanding more from the available tyre grip at the front, whilst keeping weight away from the rear which, in the old 911 that you used as an example, is often where it's most needed.
R_U_LOCAL said:
You're making the mistake that many people make in thinking about cornering, and you're getting track thoughts and techniques mixed up with a road driving mentality.
Actually I think it's the usual argument over semantics and calling a spade a broad-bladed digging implement... Trail braking here is used to define (if I could be so rude as to suggest what Will really means) maintaining some braking pressure while steering and waiting for the limit point to reach its closest position to the front of the car, rather than tracing the outside of the friction ellipse on the road. In many 'railwayman's bends' (the original roads were built by railwaymen who installed contracting radii on entry as that was the railway practice) you really have two choices:
1) Go in at a slower speed than is dictated by the limit point, to allow for contraction and balance the car up on the throttle before you start to steer (I prefer balancing early rather than have transitions in power delivery as well as grip creation, so I'll disagree mildly with the idea of bringing gas in at the same time as steering)
2) Go in at a slightly higher speed but balancing speed with vision using a tapering action on the brakes. This guarantees a higher entry speed, but leaves the driver with the issue of dealing with how to come off the brakes and get onto the gas and the effects the torque and weight transfer will have on vehicle handling. In the hands of the ham-fisted it tends to be nasty, in the hands of an expert it's a truly joyous experience...
Reg said:
That's not to say you shouldn't be on the gas as you enter the corner - you only need to squeeze the throttle enough to maintain your chosen speed into the corner and keep the car nicely balanced. As you move round the bend, your continual reassessment of the limit point and any other information will let you know when it's opening up, and therefore when you can start pressing the accelerator more firmly.
Actually that depends on the car - in the MX-5 it's around 20% throttle; in the Ford Ka it's 80-90% and both values depend on the cornering acceleration. I've got some video (with the full telemetry overlaid) that I'll get youtube'd up later...
I did a race engineering course a couple of years back, and one thing that stuck in my mind was the comment "80% of your lap time comes from the first 5 metres of a corner". It's as valid on the road as it is on track, although we're looking for different things - get the entry speed and steering right and the following straight takes care of itself.
R_U_LOCAL said:
*Gets headache*
*Goes for a lie down*
*Goes for a lie down*
Lightweight
- surely you've seen the poster in most AI units (sorry, 'Collision Investigation Units' - must be seen to be PC PCs these days) - "Arguing with an Accident Investigator is like wrestling with a pig in 
- you just get dirty and eventually you realise the pig enjoys it"Unfortunately, as I've said before, baffling people with science isn't the best way to put basic principles across. You've picked some points to argue with which we actually agree on - take this one for example...
Actually that depends on the car - in the MX-5 it's around 20% throttle; in the Ford Ka it's 80-90% and both values depend on the cornering acceleration.
Of course it depends on the car, as it depends on countless other variables, but being specific about how much throttle in which cars would take up all the sites bandwidth - which is why I simply said "enough" throttle - surely people can work out what I mean from that? No-one expects to be told exactly how much throttle to apply, and without advanced electronic displays, I'd struggle to tell the difference between 20% throttle and 40% throttle.
I have to take issue with this though...
I don't see the relevence at all. Lap times and entry speeds have no relevence on the roads whatsoever.
StressedDave said:
RUL said:
That's not to say you shouldn't be on the gas as you enter the corner - you only need to squeeze the throttle enough to maintain your chosen speed into the corner and keep the car nicely balanced. As you move round the bend, your continual reassessment of the limit point and any other information will let you know when it's opening up, and therefore when you can start pressing the accelerator more firmly.
Actually that depends on the car - in the MX-5 it's around 20% throttle; in the Ford Ka it's 80-90% and both values depend on the cornering acceleration.
Of course it depends on the car, as it depends on countless other variables, but being specific about how much throttle in which cars would take up all the sites bandwidth - which is why I simply said "enough" throttle - surely people can work out what I mean from that? No-one expects to be told exactly how much throttle to apply, and without advanced electronic displays, I'd struggle to tell the difference between 20% throttle and 40% throttle.
I have to take issue with this though...
StressedDave said:
I did a race engineering course a couple of years back, and one thing that stuck in my mind was the comment "80% of your lap time comes from the first 5 metres of a corner". It's as valid on the road as it is on track
I don't see the relevence at all. Lap times and entry speeds have no relevence on the roads whatsoever.
StressedDave said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
You're making the mistake that many people make in thinking about cornering, and you're getting track thoughts and techniques mixed up with a road driving mentality.
Actually I think it's the usual argument over semantics and calling a spade a broad-bladed digging implement... Trail braking here is used to define (if I could be so rude as to suggest what Will really means) maintaining some braking pressure while steering and waiting for the limit point to reach its closest position to the front of the car, rather than tracing the outside of the friction ellipse on the road. In many 'railwayman's bends' (the original roads were built by railwaymen who installed contracting radii on entry as that was the railway practice) you really have two choices:
1) Go in at a slower speed than is dictated by the limit point, to allow for contraction and balance the car up on the throttle before you start to steer (I prefer balancing early rather than have transitions in power delivery as well as grip creation, so I'll disagree mildly with the idea of bringing gas in at the same time as steering)
2) Go in at a slightly higher speed but balancing speed with vision using a tapering action on the brakes. This guarantees a higher entry speed, but leaves the driver with the issue of dealing with how to come off the brakes and get onto the gas and the effects the torque and weight transfer will have on vehicle handling. In the hands of the ham-fisted it tends to be nasty, in the hands of an expert it's a truly joyous experience...
And that's why we go for 1), because we are not dealing with experts.
We start with drivers who are not necessarily naturally talented & we are having to equip them with simple techniques that they can learn & reproduce reliably within a very short time frame. Simple techniques that will help them in performing their job safely if they stick to them.
Dave - strangely for him - doesn't mention that by balancing on the power early it's easier to get the deflection required both small and accurately applied as the amount of understeer remains constant until corner exit.
One of the issues I'm working on with the balanced entry is that I like to have mildly rising throttle to make sure I'm positively on the power, God sometimes likes to have mildly tightening bends, and my passenger doesn't like the two together.
One of the issues I'm working on with the balanced entry is that I like to have mildly rising throttle to make sure I'm positively on the power, God sometimes likes to have mildly tightening bends, and my passenger doesn't like the two together.
Earlier in this thread a number of people agreed on moving to the offside ('wrong' side of road) when taking this bend. Of those of you who agree you would this, would you still do so if you were being folowed by a police car? Not necessarily closely followed, but near enough to observe you take the bend on the 'wrong' side of the road. If the presence of a police car would change you behaviour - why?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
Reg, thanks for the comprehensive and thoughtful response. I'm not entirely sure I agree with all of your comments, so perhaps we can explore them a bit more...
You're making the mistake that many people make in thinking about cornering, and you're getting track thoughts and techniques mixed up with a road driving mentality.
Maybe... But, while I enjoy both, I am sufficiently conceited to think I'm pretty clear on the applicability of techniques.
... If you're using the limit point to assess the bend, you'll be bringing your speed down so that it matches what the limit point is doing - as you get closer and closer to the limit point, your speed should continue to drop until you're happy that you've assessed the tightness of the bend correctly.
Agreed. Though, as we both accept, there are situations when you will enter a curve before it is possible to assess the tightness of the bend accurately. It's in that circumstance that I would consider trail braking. For the avoidance of doubt, in this context, I'm talking about planning your braking so that you are still tapering off the brake while beginning to turn into the corner. I'm definitely not suggesting that it's appropriate to try and maximise the use of available grip on the way into an unsighted corner on a public road. The benefit is that you can stop the car more quickly and less dramatically should the need arise, in the early portion of a bend before the limit point starts to run and you can safely pick up the throttle.
However, you don't just use the limit point on the approach to the corner - it should be continually reassessed because, as you've pointed out, corners can tighten up. The Roadcraft system (if that's your chosen method) copes nicely with this by stating that if information changes (i.e. the limit point shows that the corner is tightening), then you can revert back to the start and readjust your position/speed/gear if necessary. You can't be absolutely sure about a blind corner until it starts straightening up, so you should always have this option in reserve.
So you take an educated guess at speed and gear before turning the wheel and picking up the throttle, but reserve the right to start the procedure again if information changes? I've certainly seen systematic drivers employ this technique, and I don't argue that it can be a safe approach if you have adequate grip in reserve - I cited Luxemburg, in my last reply, as the best example I can recall of a country where the road planners specialise in designing contracting radius curves on the approach to hairpins. However, I would contend that your preferred method, in the context of progressive road driving, is:
- a distortion of RoadCraft... (sorry about that!) It's not really that the information changes when the bend tightens. The bend was the same shape yesterday, and it'll be the same shape tomorrow. It's not analogous to the Spitfire landing in front of you. It's more that you decided your plan before adequate information was available. Which would be a fault if we were discussing it in the context of the approach to a roundabout.
- horribly inelegant, because your best guess plan will occasionally be wrong and need to be started over
- less progressive, because you need lots of grip in reserve to cater for those sneaky Luxemburger road planners
- less safe, because it takes longer to stop a car from an initial state of acceleration than from an initial state of deceleration.
Staying on the brakes into a corner until you're sure of how tight a bend is has a couple of problems.
Firstly, it will often mean that you're then taking a lower gear to suit your speed, whilst you're still turning the wheel. This isn't ideal - I always like to have speed and gear completely sorted out before entering a corner to maintain maximum balance through the corner.
Interesting point. If a gearchange is necessary, I accept that you would need to employ another circuit technique - the heel and toe gearchange - or confine yourself to a car with an SMG gearbox
While I accept that you may not be allowed to train or drive using these methods in your club, I genuinely believe that this is an area where race driving techniques can be beneficially applied to road driving.
I'd be interested in your thoughts, and thanks again for the opportunity to discuss it.
WilliBetz
R_U_LOCAL said:
You're making the mistake that many people make in thinking about cornering, and you're getting track thoughts and techniques mixed up with a road driving mentality.
Maybe... But, while I enjoy both, I am sufficiently conceited to think I'm pretty clear on the applicability of techniques.
R_U_LOCAL said:
... If you're using the limit point to assess the bend, you'll be bringing your speed down so that it matches what the limit point is doing - as you get closer and closer to the limit point, your speed should continue to drop until you're happy that you've assessed the tightness of the bend correctly.
Agreed. Though, as we both accept, there are situations when you will enter a curve before it is possible to assess the tightness of the bend accurately. It's in that circumstance that I would consider trail braking. For the avoidance of doubt, in this context, I'm talking about planning your braking so that you are still tapering off the brake while beginning to turn into the corner. I'm definitely not suggesting that it's appropriate to try and maximise the use of available grip on the way into an unsighted corner on a public road. The benefit is that you can stop the car more quickly and less dramatically should the need arise, in the early portion of a bend before the limit point starts to run and you can safely pick up the throttle.
R_U_LOCAL said:
However, you don't just use the limit point on the approach to the corner - it should be continually reassessed because, as you've pointed out, corners can tighten up. The Roadcraft system (if that's your chosen method) copes nicely with this by stating that if information changes (i.e. the limit point shows that the corner is tightening), then you can revert back to the start and readjust your position/speed/gear if necessary. You can't be absolutely sure about a blind corner until it starts straightening up, so you should always have this option in reserve.
So you take an educated guess at speed and gear before turning the wheel and picking up the throttle, but reserve the right to start the procedure again if information changes? I've certainly seen systematic drivers employ this technique, and I don't argue that it can be a safe approach if you have adequate grip in reserve - I cited Luxemburg, in my last reply, as the best example I can recall of a country where the road planners specialise in designing contracting radius curves on the approach to hairpins. However, I would contend that your preferred method, in the context of progressive road driving, is:
- a distortion of RoadCraft... (sorry about that!) It's not really that the information changes when the bend tightens. The bend was the same shape yesterday, and it'll be the same shape tomorrow. It's not analogous to the Spitfire landing in front of you. It's more that you decided your plan before adequate information was available. Which would be a fault if we were discussing it in the context of the approach to a roundabout.
- horribly inelegant, because your best guess plan will occasionally be wrong and need to be started over
- less progressive, because you need lots of grip in reserve to cater for those sneaky Luxemburger road planners
- less safe, because it takes longer to stop a car from an initial state of acceleration than from an initial state of deceleration.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Staying on the brakes into a corner until you're sure of how tight a bend is has a couple of problems.
Firstly, it will often mean that you're then taking a lower gear to suit your speed, whilst you're still turning the wheel. This isn't ideal - I always like to have speed and gear completely sorted out before entering a corner to maintain maximum balance through the corner.
Interesting point. If a gearchange is necessary, I accept that you would need to employ another circuit technique - the heel and toe gearchange - or confine yourself to a car with an SMG gearbox
While I accept that you may not be allowed to train or drive using these methods in your club, I genuinely believe that this is an area where race driving techniques can be beneficially applied to road driving.
I'd be interested in your thoughts, and thanks again for the opportunity to discuss it.
WilliBetz
Philbes said:
Earlier in this thread a number of people agreed on moving to the offside ('wrong' side of road) when taking this bend. Of those of you who agree you would this, would you still do so if you were being folowed by a police car? Not necessarily closely followed, but near enough to observe you take the bend on the 'wrong' side of the road. If the presence of a police car would change you behaviour - why?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
Yes I would, but I suppose I'm in a priviliged position - I know what the Police have been taught, and I'd expect them to do the same. I'd also have some choice words for any Police Officer who stopped me for doing it.
A more relevent way for me to look at it is would I stop someone for driving like that? The answer is no.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Philbes said:
Earlier in this thread a number of people agreed on moving to the offside ('wrong' side of road) when taking this bend. Of those of you who agree you would this, would you still do so if you were being folowed by a police car? Not necessarily closely followed, but near enough to observe you take the bend on the 'wrong' side of the road. If the presence of a police car would change you behaviour - why?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
This is a test I often use to assess my driving - would I drive the same if a police car was following me?
Yes I would, but I suppose I'm in a priviliged position - I know what the Police have been taught, and I'd expect them to do the same. I'd also have some choice words for any Police Officer who stopped me for doing it.
A more relevent way for me to look at it is would I stop someone for driving like that? The answer is no.
Thanks for your reply although I also would like to know what MOP would do. And I suspect some Bib would stop a driver for taking such a line through a corner.
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