The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
smn159 said:
jm8403 said:
joshcowin said:
I cant get my head around this 'junk miles' thing, surely any running is good as it builds fatigue and will cause the body to adapt. For example the poster we are replying to wants to run a marathon, I could argue that the workout you posted has zero relevance to him/her plodding around the marathon in 5 hours. building their aerobic base could be more beneficial than increasing their v02 etc... Running on tired legs at a slow pace is what the poster will experience on marathon day, why not simulate that in training by running loads of slow miles all week and carrying that fatigue into the weekend long run?
I am not arguing more talking something through that I have thought for a while. I accept your post is credible and is the accepted way of looking at it. Its also what I do (interval sessions and steady progressive runs), can you tell I don't have people to chat running to
It took me a while too. Junk miles usually means: miles that could be run better, i.e. with a strategy or goal in hand. The vast majority of club runners/joggers run all their runs in 6-8/10 effort pace meaning the slow runs are too fast and the faster runs suffer as you have fatigue you would be better off without. This applies more so to the runner trying to get from 4hr marathon to 3hr 30 or 3hrs, but of course, every runner would benefit from dedicated slower days, leaving energy for the 'reps'/'fartlek'. I am not arguing more talking something through that I have thought for a while. I accept your post is credible and is the accepted way of looking at it. Its also what I do (interval sessions and steady progressive runs), can you tell I don't have people to chat running to
Variation is important as different paces train different systems in your body. Even speed intervals are useful occasionally for marathon runners as they tend to reinforce good running form.
I still don't buy into the fact that they are junk miles! I know a running coach will tell you they are because lets face it their job is to schedule sessions and workouts. If I ran 40miles a week at 8mins a mile consistently my fitness would improve the body would adapt and the pace would naturally get quicker over time, meaning you run the same distance but quicker or run for the same amount of time and cover more miles. Yes its boring but I honestly think people overcomplicate the whole thing!
I have never got injured running easy miles, I don't have perfect form, but I have run like this for years and only had one hamstring injury (slight tear when running a rep down hill straight into an incline). If I make big changes to my form now I recon I would get injured. As for overuse injuries, I guess if you are running a flat loop consistently, but surely most people are varying routes and terrain enough that they aren't just pounding out the same gait for mile after mile?
I 100% agree that form improves as you pick up the pace. So what if you do all your runs slow but are mindful about form? Would they still be junk miles?
Won't quote as it will get quite long, but my experience / view of this... I'll assume that 8 mins/mile is harder than 'easy' pace, but not so hard that you can't sustain it. In terms of HR it's maybe at the bottom end of your 'tempo' range.
You will improve by doing this, probably very quickly at first, but at some point you will plateau and further improvements will be slow if they happen at all. Your lactate threshold will have improved, but you're not now running hard enough at any point to challenge it to see further improvements. You'll likely do your races as well as training runs at a similar pace.
None of this may be an issue, but it depends what you want to achieve - if you're happy with your running and it works, why not... if you want a 5 or 10K PB you need to think about training that will improve your lactate threshold and allow you to run more efficiently.
You will improve by doing this, probably very quickly at first, but at some point you will plateau and further improvements will be slow if they happen at all. Your lactate threshold will have improved, but you're not now running hard enough at any point to challenge it to see further improvements. You'll likely do your races as well as training runs at a similar pace.
None of this may be an issue, but it depends what you want to achieve - if you're happy with your running and it works, why not... if you want a 5 or 10K PB you need to think about training that will improve your lactate threshold and allow you to run more efficiently.
I didn’t think my slow miles as junk miles as I have read a lot about the 80/20 rule so thought I was doing right. But running for me isn’t about racing and pb’s. It’s primarily for my mental health plus I like an odd sociable beer so don’t want to be fat!
A marathon would be a nice achievement and something to aim for.
A marathon would be a nice achievement and something to aim for.
I think the coaches at my club tend to avoid the word 'junk' for this very reason.
They're only 'junk' if you're doing them AND have the goal of improving as much as possible - you could be doing other things to continue improving at a faster rate. Sometimes I think about it in terms of 'performance productivity' as an alternative, because there are plenty of runners at our club that just aren't that interested in performance. They're there to be healthy both in terms of physical health but also for social and mental benefits so for them, 'junk' miles are wonderful, happy, sociable miles that are the entire reason they run.
The two best photos for our club this weekend were the lad that came first in the Goring 10K, and the two ladies that stopped at the top of one of the hills to take some pictures of the elevations.
They're only 'junk' if you're doing them AND have the goal of improving as much as possible - you could be doing other things to continue improving at a faster rate. Sometimes I think about it in terms of 'performance productivity' as an alternative, because there are plenty of runners at our club that just aren't that interested in performance. They're there to be healthy both in terms of physical health but also for social and mental benefits so for them, 'junk' miles are wonderful, happy, sociable miles that are the entire reason they run.
The two best photos for our club this weekend were the lad that came first in the Goring 10K, and the two ladies that stopped at the top of one of the hills to take some pictures of the elevations.
elvismiggell said:
The two best photos for our club this weekend were the lad that came first in the Goring 10K, and the two ladies that stopped at the top of one of the hills to take some pictures of the elevations.
I did the Goring 10k on Sunday too. It is beyond belief how fast some people are, truly amazing stuff. Nice course but I found it quite hilly. As someone that is trying to regain fitness it was quite challenging but still fun.
keo said:
I would love to do 1 marathon as an achievement. Thinking about doing the IOM in august. Would be nice to take the car over and have a blast as well, we are on PistonHeads!
Looking at plans though they mention intervals/ specific speeds and strength training. I aren’t that serious. My question is could I do a marathon from just running?
Most of it would be slow to just get miles in. I could run a half marathon now, wouldn’t be fast but it wouldn’t be a problem. My furthest run is about 16/17 miles I have ever done and I have done 120 mile months in the past. Although no where near that now. Just been ticking over doing 50 mile months over winter!
The other thing I never fuel/ drink on my runs either.
Unpopular opinion. Looking at plans though they mention intervals/ specific speeds and strength training. I aren’t that serious. My question is could I do a marathon from just running?
Most of it would be slow to just get miles in. I could run a half marathon now, wouldn’t be fast but it wouldn’t be a problem. My furthest run is about 16/17 miles I have ever done and I have done 120 mile months in the past. Although no where near that now. Just been ticking over doing 50 mile months over winter!
The other thing I never fuel/ drink on my runs either.
Yes you can run a marathon by running. My SIL has run 2 just by running. she does short runs and longer runs of just running no sprints, speed sessions and certainly no other training. She is currently training for another which we are doing with her. I don't suggest this is a good way, but if the goal is to just complete a marathon it is possible.
More annoyingly is that she is quicker than her twin sister (my wife) at all distances up marathon distance.
Edited by tim2100 on Tuesday 14th March 13:16
redrabbit29 said:
I did the Goring 10k on Sunday too. It is beyond belief how fast some people are, truly amazing stuff.
Nice course but I found it quite hilly. As someone that is trying to regain fitness it was quite challenging but still fun.
Flapjacks and views, that's what that race is for. Nice course but I found it quite hilly. As someone that is trying to regain fitness it was quite challenging but still fun.
That first hill is especially cruel if you don't know it, but a nice reward at the end as you're coming back in.
Heads up, worth popping to tk max at some point, just picked up a pair of adios pro 2 for £56. they had Boston 10's for the same amount and also some solar glides for £40. That's far better than the outlets and online retailers
Spotted a lovely pair of NB 1080 v12 also for £60, dark blue colourway.
Spotted a lovely pair of NB 1080 v12 also for £60, dark blue colourway.
Slow slow slow. Can never be slow enough. My weekly 10 miler is 9.20.
Tempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in high 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting a marathon. No interest.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine.
Tempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in high 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting a marathon. No interest.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine.
Next ailment; Outside knee pain.
Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
joshcowin said:
Spotted a lovely pair of NB 1080 v12 also for £60, dark blue colourway.
That's a great price! I paid 129 euro for a pair this week after my airline lost my luggage. Been running a mix of trails and roads on them and very, very impressed so far (compared to my usual Asics Cumulus and Hoka SG5).Otispunkmeyer said:
Next ailment; Outside knee pain.
Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
Outside of the knee might well be the ITB. Doing some regular stretches before and after running solved the issue for me. The best stretch I found was sitting on a chair with one ankle on the other knee and stretching forward. Should feel it putting all the way down the outside/underside of the bent leg. Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
Otispunkmeyer said:
Next ailment; Outside knee pain.
Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
I was plagued with this when I started running. What eventually solved it for good was 2 x core strength sessions per week, focussed on improving hip and glute strength. Took a while though.Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
Yours may be different, so def worth trying the stretches, but you really need to work out what's causing it and fix that.
We have a Brit in Damien Hall on lap 5 in Frozen Head State Park... one of four out there. Must be an easy peasy year.
Jasmin Paris made it out on lap 4 but had missed the cutoff for 5 and is still on course.
Eta, no we don't. Lost and returned camp.
Jasmin Paris made it out on lap 4 but had missed the cutoff for 5 and is still on course.
Eta, no we don't. Lost and returned camp.
Edited by Smitters on Thursday 16th March 19:51
Otispunkmeyer said:
Next ailment; Outside knee pain.
Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
It does sound like ITB. It would be worth just going to a Physio to get it looked at however.Never had this before but after a 10k its there on every run now. Much more noticeable when running down a slope, almost disappears when running up a slope.
Assuming it will be tightness or some kind of imbalance? Could it be shoe related? (although I did put my pronation shoes back on and still had the pain).
Thanks
Rob
john2443 said:
Smitters said:
We have a Brit in Damien Hall on lap 5 in Frozen Head State Park... one of four out there. Must be an easy peasy year.
Best Tweet is that Laz is worried no one will enter next year because they think it's too easy irish boy said:
Slow slow slow. Can never be slow enough. My weekly 10 miler is 9.20.
Tempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in high 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting a marathon. No interest.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine.
well said sirTempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in high 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting a marathon. No interest.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine.
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