General rugby thread

[C70R]

the tribester said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

Are you really comparing Exeter winning the knockout stages at an empty Sandy Park during lockdown 2020 and then a final at an empty Ashton Gate with Leinster playing all their knockout games in front of their home crowds at the Aviva?

No I'm not.

I'm addressing the point that the other guy made about it being "rigged" so Leinster have all their games at 'home'. Exeter enjoyed exactly the same luxury, and would have had thousands of fans supporting them had it not been for lockdown restrictions. Toulouse had to suffer COVID-affected travel to go and play their semi-final in Sandy Park, which is a huge disadvantage in terms of preparation.

Frankly, rugby finances are in a terrible state at the moment. If two clubs can make some cash by selling out a massive stadium for a European game (as they have twice recently), rather than filling a smaller stadium just down the road, I'm here for it.

[LotusOmega375D]

That’s another point. The top seeds get the additional financial advantage of bumper home ticket sales for each of these big knockout matches. Is the TV money split 50:50 between both sides?

[C70R]

LotusOmega375D said:

That’s another point. The top seeds get the additional financial advantage of bumper home ticket sales for each of these big knockout matches. Is the TV money split 50:50 between both sides?

I thought the majority of the TV money was put towards prizes for the top teams, and then the gate income is shared. Teams do get a small payment for TV rights (it's really not much) and there's some additional cash to be made from sponsorship income too.

I might be out of date with that though.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 13th April 10:53

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

[DodgyGeezer]

Bye bye to Chris Ashton who's retiring at the end of the season

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

Ok, fine. It's "rigged" in favour of a team that haven't won in 5 years.

It's like talking to a football fan.

[mr pg]

C70R said:

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

Sarries win over Leinster was in Newcastle, so couldn't be more neutral.

[C70R]

mr pg said:

C70R said:

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

Sarries win over Leinster was in Newcastle, so couldn't be more neutral.

Erm... I can think of lots of ways it could have been more neutral.

Like in a country that neither team was from for a start.

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

mr pg said:

C70R said:

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

Sarries win over Leinster was in Newcastle, so couldn't be more neutral.

Erm... I can think of lots of ways it could have been more neutral.

Like in a country that neither team was from for a start.

There's "in the same country", then there's "have played on this pitch dozens of times, completely dialed in to its dimensions when it comes to kicking, etc..."

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Ok, fine. It's "rigged" in favour of a team that haven't won in 5 years.

It's like talking to a football fan.

Okay, so what other team has ever been given the opportunity of a European final at their home ground?

[epom]

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

Incorrect.

[Kermit power]

epom said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

Incorrect.

Well that's a staggeringly helpful contribution to the debate, thanks! Where would we be without your remarkable insight, coupled with the clarity with which you explained it?

[epom]

Kermit power said:

epom said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

Incorrect.

Well that's a staggeringly helpful contribution to the debate, thanks! Where would we be without your remarkable insight, coupled with the clarity with which you explained it?

Your last paragraph stating the Aviva is Leinsters home stadium is incorrect. Wrong, whatever way you’d like it put. Clear ?

[Kermit power]

epom said:

Kermit power said:

epom said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

Hmm... let me see...

Is Exeter winning a final at Ashton Gate, a stadium at which they've never been the home side and where they'd only previously played 3 times, I believe, the same as...

Leinster, who, if they make it to the final this year, will have played twelve home Heineken Cup knock out games at the Aviva in the past decade, including this season's round of 16, quarter final and semi final!

On balance, I think we can safely say no, it's absolutely not the same at all, and if Leinster make the final, it should be moved to a neutral venue.

But they earned all of those knockout home ties, this year's final aside, by being good and being the top seed. That's not "rigged" in the slightest; it's the tournament format, and has been for a number of years.

Just like in Exeter's winning year when they played home knockout ties all the way to a final that was an hour up the road from their home stadium. Racing 92 (the other finalists) might have had a moan about that, but they just got on with it.

I find it hard to take the "rigged" wibbling seriously when it's been 5 years since Leinster won it.

I think you're missing my point. I accept that they won the right to home fixtures in the stages leading up to the final, just like any other club could have done, and I have no issue at all with that, but the final is supposed to be played at a neutral venue, and the Aviva is not a neutral venue for Leinster.

Ashton Gate wasn't really a neutral venue for Exeter either. Why don't you have a similar problem with that? Saracens won a final against Leinster in England, (London) Wasps over Leicester in Twickenham, and Saints in England. Were they "rigged" too?

It's surely not that hard to understand, is it?

We are not talking about home country advantage, we are talking about home GROUND advantage.

Ashton Gate is a 75 mile, 90 minute drive from Sandy Park (further away than Bath, Gloucester and even Worcester), and in no way can be considered a home stadium for Exeter.

Leinster, on the other hand? If they make it to the final, that will be the 46th game they've played at the Aviva since it opened in 2010.

The Aviva is a home stadium for Leinster. No other team in the HC gets the opportunity to play at a home.stadium, so why should they?

Incorrect.

Well that's a staggeringly helpful contribution to the debate, thanks! Where would we be without your remarkable insight, coupled with the clarity with which you explained it?

Your last paragraph stating the Aviva is Leinsters home stadium is incorrect. Wrong, whatever way you’d like it put. Clear ?

Leinster 100% recognise it as a home stadium. They play pretty much any game there for which they'd be able to easily outsell capacity at the RDS, meaning every big knock out game in both tournaments, pretty much.

I never said it was their only stadium, but no club on the face of the planet averages 4+ games a year for a decade in a stadium that they don't recognise as a home stadium. Just because the RDS is the one that carries their postal address, that doesn't mean the Aviva isn't a home stadium for them as well. They play too many matches there for it not to be.

It's one thing having the home advantage of bigger crowds in a stadium you don't really know, but quite another to play there often enough to really know the pitch, the wind and everything else.

Given how the Irish provinces tend not to play their big stars in some of the lesser games, plus of course the fact that half the games are away of course, it would be interesting to know whether any of Leinster’s Ireland players, across provincial and international matches combined, have actually played more home games at the Aviva than at the RDS in recent years.

[JerryEXE]

Kermit power said:

Leinster 100% recognise it as a home stadium. They play pretty much any game there for which they'd be able to easily outsell capacity at the RDS, meaning every big knock out game in both tournaments, pretty much.

I never said it was their only stadium, but no club on the face of the planet averages 4+ games a year for a decade in a stadium that they don't recognise as a home stadium. Just because the RDS is the one that carries their postal address, that doesn't mean the Aviva isn't a home stadium for them as well. They play too many matches there for it not to be.

It's one thing having the home advantage of bigger crowds in a stadium you don't really know, but quite another to play there often enough to really know the pitch, the wind and everything else.

Given how the Irish provinces tend not to play their big stars in some of the lesser games, plus of course the fact that half the games are away of course, it would be interesting to know whether any of Leinster’s Ireland players, across provincial and international matches combined, have actually played more home games at the Aviva than at the RDS in recent years.

I could twist your thought process to say that Quins shouldn’t be allowed to play Premiership matches at Twickenham as, if they make a final, they’ll have an unfair advantage on knowing the venue better than the opposition

The final needs to be shared around the better grounds of the countries competing, this year the Aviva was chosen and it just so happens that Leinster are showing great form and probably the best team in the competition … good luck to them if they have a “home” final.

[epom]

I’m out…. Enjoy the tin foil hat postings.

[Kermit power]

JerryEXE said:

I could twist your thought process to say that Quins shouldn’t be allowed to play Premiership matches at Twickenham as, if they make a final, they’ll have an unfair advantage on knowing the venue better than the opposition

The final needs to be shared around the better grounds of the countries competing, this year the Aviva was chosen and it just so happens that Leinster are showing great form and probably the best team in the competition … good luck to them if they have a “home” final.

I did say earlier in the thread that I'd understand people feeling aggrieved about Quins getting a final at Twickenham. Also, as a Quins fan nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing an end to those bloody awful games! 🤣

I wouldn't mind if they played at other stadiums occasionally if it had better transport infrastructure than Twickenham though!

Let's take an example in Caelan Doris...

He has played 18 games so far this season. Of these, 6 were away games and 12 at home.

Of the 12 at home 5 were for Ireland (so obviously at the Aviva) and 7 were for Leinster.

Of those 7 games for Leinster, he played at the RDS against Benneton, Ulster, Connacht & Gloucester and at the Aviva against Munster, Racing & Leicester, with at least the semi-final still to come of course.

So, to add that all up, by the time of the final, assuming Leinster and Doris are in it, he will have played 75% of his home games at the Aviva this season.

You might discount Ireland games by saying that all the other 6 Nations internationals get that same advantage if the final happens to be at their national stadium. That's fair enough (even if Leinster to have far more players in that position) but even taking those games out, Doris will have played 50% of his home provincial games at the Aviva. How can that possibly not be construed as an unfair advantage for a game that is supposed to be happening at a neutral stadium?

The obvious answer to me would be either to ban all teams from holding home fixtures at their national stadium, or saying that the Heineken final should be at Croke Park if Leinster are in it.

[phil_cardiff]

If you think the Irish gerrymander the European Cup you should see what happens in the URC, a tournament run by the Irish for the benefit of the Irish.