Triathlon - Swim Training
Discussion
I've done several Tri's this year. Finishing in top 20 usually.
I do no swim training but lots of bike / running so I always have a poor swim then quick transitions and make up time on bike run section.
Time to start swim training - went to the pool on the way to work this am - swam 1500m. mix of breaststroke and crawl - knackered! Anytips on where to start improving technique / speed / fatigue. Thanks
I do no swim training but lots of bike / running so I always have a poor swim then quick transitions and make up time on bike run section.
Time to start swim training - went to the pool on the way to work this am - swam 1500m. mix of breaststroke and crawl - knackered! Anytips on where to start improving technique / speed / fatigue. Thanks
Lots of info in the swimming/open water thread:-
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
and in the triathlon thread:-
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
and in the triathlon thread:-
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
As above plenty of advice in those threads.
When you say top 20, is that overall, or AG? If overall (and even AG TBF) then its fair to assume that you have a decent level of aerobic fitness, and so largely your lack of swimming ability is going to be straight up poor technique. Of course run and bike fitness doesn't directly relate to swim fitness as it uses different muscles and energy systems etc but you are not an unfit person and will have a strong CV system.
With poor technique the best way to improve is to have someone who knows what they are doing to watch you swim a give you drills and advice to fix them. Without us seeing your swim its impossible to say whats wrong really. Although if 1500m mix crawl and breast is killing you I would better that your head is too high and you have sinky legs, and probably a scissor kick. All of these things create a huge amount of drag and make it so much harder.
When you say top 20, is that overall, or AG? If overall (and even AG TBF) then its fair to assume that you have a decent level of aerobic fitness, and so largely your lack of swimming ability is going to be straight up poor technique. Of course run and bike fitness doesn't directly relate to swim fitness as it uses different muscles and energy systems etc but you are not an unfit person and will have a strong CV system.
With poor technique the best way to improve is to have someone who knows what they are doing to watch you swim a give you drills and advice to fix them. Without us seeing your swim its impossible to say whats wrong really. Although if 1500m mix crawl and breast is killing you I would better that your head is too high and you have sinky legs, and probably a scissor kick. All of these things create a huge amount of drag and make it so much harder.
Thanks all - just started reading the swimming post - got to page 4 ......
Yeah - wobbly legs, head too high - I've got it all!! Poor technique is for sure my middle name just now.
top 20 overall usually so good aerobic fitness but no technique!!!
What i've learnt so far is that contacts and goggle bad = I've phoned optician and ordered some proper swimming goggles.
All the gear and still no idea .......
Yeah - wobbly legs, head too high - I've got it all!! Poor technique is for sure my middle name just now.
top 20 overall usually so good aerobic fitness but no technique!!!
What i've learnt so far is that contacts and goggle bad = I've phoned optician and ordered some proper swimming goggles.
All the gear and still no idea .......
scotlandtim said:
What i've learnt so far is that contacts and goggle bad = I've phoned optician and ordered some proper swimming goggles.
Yes, so erm, in the swimming thread, the guy being told not to swim in contacts (944fan), is erm me (previous PH incarnation), and I erm, ignored that advice and carried on doing it. Like a smoker, that will never happen to me. 6 months later I got exactly what it said.: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...So yes get some prescription googles!
My tip is Total Immersion, which is a method of learning and improving swimming technique invented by an American guy who sadly died last year, but is continued by coaches all over the world. I'm not one for fads or new ways of doing things, but TI really has made me realise how wrong a lot of standard advice is for swimming.
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Get some coaching would be my advice. I spent years practising terrible technique and reinforcing bad habits in the pool when I raced triathlons. You need someone poolside to see what you are doing, and / or video it for you, It can be very different from what you think you are doing.
in swimming "practice" does not make perfect....perfect practice makes perfect.....
in swimming "practice" does not make perfect....perfect practice makes perfect.....
RobM77 said:
My tip is Total Immersion, which is a method of learning and improving swimming technique invented by an American guy who sadly died last year, but is continued by coaches all over the world. I'm not one for fads or new ways of doing things, but TI really has made me realise how wrong a lot of standard advice is for swimming.
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Sun Yangs technique is brilliant , just looks effortless The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
I'm good over 50 metres, sub 24 seconds, but then suffer a big drop off in speed beyond this because I'm relying a lot on a fast leg kick and pull which just drains energy. Like you say he seems to hardly use any energy
Juanco20 said:
RobM77 said:
My tip is Total Immersion, which is a method of learning and improving swimming technique invented by an American guy who sadly died last year, but is continued by coaches all over the world. I'm not one for fads or new ways of doing things, but TI really has made me realise how wrong a lot of standard advice is for swimming.
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Sun Yangs technique is brilliant , just looks effortless The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
I'm good over 50 metres, sub 24 seconds, but then suffer a big drop off in speed beyond this because I'm relying a lot on a fast leg kick and pull which just drains energy. Like you say he seems to hardly use any energy
With the right training (and I'd recommend TI), you'd find that you can extend that speed over longer distances. You may even find it improves your 50m time, although if you're down at 24 secs then the gains would be very marginal, and you may even go slower over 50m, because often aspects of technique that are good for 50m are bad for long distance (I'm mainly thinking of angle in the water coupled with the kick - Ian Thorpe for example).RobM77 said:
Juanco20 said:
RobM77 said:
My tip is Total Immersion, which is a method of learning and improving swimming technique invented by an American guy who sadly died last year, but is continued by coaches all over the world. I'm not one for fads or new ways of doing things, but TI really has made me realise how wrong a lot of standard advice is for swimming.
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Sun Yangs technique is brilliant , just looks effortless The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
I'm good over 50 metres, sub 24 seconds, but then suffer a big drop off in speed beyond this because I'm relying a lot on a fast leg kick and pull which just drains energy. Like you say he seems to hardly use any energy
With the right training (and I'd recommend TI), you'd find that you can extend that speed over longer distances. You may even find it improves your 50m time, although if you're down at 24 secs then the gains would be very marginal, and you may even go slower over 50m, because often aspects of technique that are good for 50m are bad for long distance (I'm mainly thinking of angle in the water coupled with the kick - Ian Thorpe for example).Juanco20 said:
RobM77 said:
Juanco20 said:
RobM77 said:
My tip is Total Immersion, which is a method of learning and improving swimming technique invented by an American guy who sadly died last year, but is continued by coaches all over the world. I'm not one for fads or new ways of doing things, but TI really has made me realise how wrong a lot of standard advice is for swimming.
The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Sun Yangs technique is brilliant , just looks effortless The central premise of the TI approach is that with water being so dense, over 800 times denser than air in fact, streamlining is the key to speed, not power. For sure, you use and develop power, but the primary concern is getting one's streamlining correct. Moving on from that, TI encourages natural motions, rather than ones that give you classic swimming injuries, typically around the shoulders. Training revolves around concentrating on improving technique, rather than speed, and the speed then naturally arrives. Through my 20s and 30s I struggled to swim much distance at all, even after getting coaching and six months where I lived next to a pool and swam twice a day for the whole time, pushing hard, but failing to get results. In contrast, after 3 years of intensive TI lessons and once or twice weekly practise, I could swim totally relaxed with barely any effort for about a mile at a pace that used to be my top speed over 50 metres beforehand. I've also learnt a two beat kick, which is good for triathlon because when you finish the swim your legs have barely done anything.
The other key to success, which applies regardless of learning technique, is underwater filming. Most people, me included, have simply no idea what they're doing with their legs, arms and core when they swim, so coaching advice is hard to interpret. Furthermore, coaches looking down from the poolside can't see what's going on under the water, which is where most of the gains are made. Filming underwater with a screen at the pool to view constantly throughout training gave me enormous leaps and bounds. For example, in my last session we worked on a very subtle aspect of my hip rotation timing, and that alone found me 3 seconds off my 100m pace.
Here's a demo of TI. It looks slow, but he's actually moving at a reasonable pace: https://youtu.be/koqJm0UIRZ4
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
I'm good over 50 metres, sub 24 seconds, but then suffer a big drop off in speed beyond this because I'm relying a lot on a fast leg kick and pull which just drains energy. Like you say he seems to hardly use any energy
With the right training (and I'd recommend TI), you'd find that you can extend that speed over longer distances. You may even find it improves your 50m time, although if you're down at 24 secs then the gains would be very marginal, and you may even go slower over 50m, because often aspects of technique that are good for 50m are bad for long distance (I'm mainly thinking of angle in the water coupled with the kick - Ian Thorpe for example).1) Think about leaning down onto your chest, maintaining a strong core and thinking long through your legs. This will get you flat in the water - the biggest leap forward for streamlining that you'll make.
2) The trigger for starting the catch with your outstretched arm is the fingertips of the recovering hand drawing level with the outstretched arm's elbow. This is very different from sprinting and will feel extremely odd! When the recovering hand passes the elbow and you start the catch, you rotate and go to the other rail.
3) Relax and let the weight of the water support you and your head. Your outstretched hand shouldn't be stretched, it should just hang in the water, like your head.
4) Two beat kick - the kick is just a little flick when you rotate.
5) Think about technique, not speed. The speed will come on its own.
As I said above though, it takes a long time to learn TI properly. If you want a good intro to TI I can recommend one of the one day introduction courses. They're held around the country several times a year.
RobM77 said:
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
That looks incredibly efficient. RobM77 said:
SPL is certainly one of the things that will drop. I'll warn you that it took me three years to achieve a full TI stroke, as per the Shinji video I linked to above. I still have bad habits I'm trying to iron out. I was a terrible swimmer when I started though - it may take someone of your ability 3-6 months. If you're going to have a go:
1) Think about leaning down onto your chest, maintaining a strong core and thinking long through your legs. This will get you flat in the water - the biggest leap forward for streamlining that you'll make.
2) The trigger for starting the catch with your outstretched arm is the fingertips of the recovering hand drawing level with the outstretched arm's elbow. This is very different from sprinting and will feel extremely odd! When the recovering hand passes the elbow and you start the catch, you rotate and go to the other rail.
3) Relax and let the weight of the water support you and your head. Your outstretched hand shouldn't be stretched, it should just hang in the water, like your head.
4) Two beat kick - the kick is just a little flick when you rotate.
5) Think about technique, not speed. The speed will come on its own.
As I said above though, it takes a long time to learn TI properly. If you want a good intro to TI I can recommend one of the one day introduction courses. They're held around the country several times a year.
Can you send me some details please on the courses 1) Think about leaning down onto your chest, maintaining a strong core and thinking long through your legs. This will get you flat in the water - the biggest leap forward for streamlining that you'll make.
2) The trigger for starting the catch with your outstretched arm is the fingertips of the recovering hand drawing level with the outstretched arm's elbow. This is very different from sprinting and will feel extremely odd! When the recovering hand passes the elbow and you start the catch, you rotate and go to the other rail.
3) Relax and let the weight of the water support you and your head. Your outstretched hand shouldn't be stretched, it should just hang in the water, like your head.
4) Two beat kick - the kick is just a little flick when you rotate.
5) Think about technique, not speed. The speed will come on its own.
As I said above though, it takes a long time to learn TI properly. If you want a good intro to TI I can recommend one of the one day introduction courses. They're held around the country several times a year.
Can it be done with bilateral breathing or is most efficient to breathe on one side after every stroke on that side like in the video you posted?
Juanco20 said:
RobM77 said:
SPL is certainly one of the things that will drop. I'll warn you that it took me three years to achieve a full TI stroke, as per the Shinji video I linked to above. I still have bad habits I'm trying to iron out. I was a terrible swimmer when I started though - it may take someone of your ability 3-6 months. If you're going to have a go:
1) Think about leaning down onto your chest, maintaining a strong core and thinking long through your legs. This will get you flat in the water - the biggest leap forward for streamlining that you'll make.
2) The trigger for starting the catch with your outstretched arm is the fingertips of the recovering hand drawing level with the outstretched arm's elbow. This is very different from sprinting and will feel extremely odd! When the recovering hand passes the elbow and you start the catch, you rotate and go to the other rail.
3) Relax and let the weight of the water support you and your head. Your outstretched hand shouldn't be stretched, it should just hang in the water, like your head.
4) Two beat kick - the kick is just a little flick when you rotate.
5) Think about technique, not speed. The speed will come on its own.
As I said above though, it takes a long time to learn TI properly. If you want a good intro to TI I can recommend one of the one day introduction courses. They're held around the country several times a year.
Can you send me some details please on the courses 1) Think about leaning down onto your chest, maintaining a strong core and thinking long through your legs. This will get you flat in the water - the biggest leap forward for streamlining that you'll make.
2) The trigger for starting the catch with your outstretched arm is the fingertips of the recovering hand drawing level with the outstretched arm's elbow. This is very different from sprinting and will feel extremely odd! When the recovering hand passes the elbow and you start the catch, you rotate and go to the other rail.
3) Relax and let the weight of the water support you and your head. Your outstretched hand shouldn't be stretched, it should just hang in the water, like your head.
4) Two beat kick - the kick is just a little flick when you rotate.
5) Think about technique, not speed. The speed will come on its own.
As I said above though, it takes a long time to learn TI properly. If you want a good intro to TI I can recommend one of the one day introduction courses. They're held around the country several times a year.
Can it be done with bilateral breathing or is most efficient to breathe on one side after every stroke on that side like in the video you posted?
In Open Water I repeat this and switch sides every 50 metres or so, usually combined with a sighting check.Sure - I'll PM you the course details. I went on one last winter and really enjoyed it, even after all that intensive one-one TI coaching - the coaches picked up on my bad habits accumulated since that coaching.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 8th November 17:24
RobM77 said:
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Yeah, Sun's performances might not have *just* been to do with TI... Highway Star said:
RobM77 said:
You can see all the elements of TI come together in someone like the Sun Yang, who really stands out in competition for his technique. He broke one of the longest standing world records in swimming, and in an interview straight afterwards, he wasn't even out of breath: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o&t=...
Yeah, Sun's performances might not have *just* been to do with TI... 
Of course, yes. I didn't mean to infer they were. 
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 9th November 09:35
RobM77 said:
Interesting you spotted that. My coach always recommended breathing to one side and switching each time I turn because it's easier to get right each time if you do it the same side. She told me to pick an attractive life guard and remember to always look at them In Open Water I repeat this and switch sides every 50 metres or so, usually combined with a sighting check.
Sure - I'll PM you the course details. I went on one last winter and really enjoyed it, even after all that intensive one-one TI coaching - the coaches picked up on my bad habits accumulated since that coaching.
Thanks for that. Will take a look In Open Water I repeat this and switch sides every 50 metres or so, usually combined with a sighting check.Sure - I'll PM you the course details. I went on one last winter and really enjoyed it, even after all that intensive one-one TI coaching - the coaches picked up on my bad habits accumulated since that coaching.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 8th November 17:24
Camoradi said:
Get some coaching would be my advice. I spent years practising terrible technique and reinforcing bad habits in the pool when I raced triathlons. You need someone poolside to see what you are doing, and / or video it for you, It can be very different from what you think you are doing.
in swimming "practice" does not make perfect....perfect practice makes perfect.....
Good advice. Never practice swimming badly. I think that at anything but the elite level the aim should be to make the swim a warm-up that is almost entirely about technique rather than effort. Then a triathlon becomes 1/3 a technical challenge and only 2/3 a physical one.in swimming "practice" does not make perfect....perfect practice makes perfect.....
scotlandtim said:
Thanks all - just started reading the swimming post - got to page 4 ......
Yeah - wobbly legs, head too high - I've got it all!! Poor technique is for sure my middle name just now.
top 20 overall usually so good aerobic fitness but no technique!!!
What i've learnt so far is that contacts and goggle bad = I've phoned optician and ordered some proper swimming goggles.
All the gear and still no idea .......
Technique is everything. water is 1000X denser and swimming motion is generally much less efficient for humans (we're designed to walk/run so nearly anyone can have a decent stab at running if they're fit, but it doesn't work the other way round for swimming! You can be fit as you like for running, but being swim-fit is different). Small improvements in technique, consequently, can make a serious difference.Yeah - wobbly legs, head too high - I've got it all!! Poor technique is for sure my middle name just now.
top 20 overall usually so good aerobic fitness but no technique!!!
What i've learnt so far is that contacts and goggle bad = I've phoned optician and ordered some proper swimming goggles.
All the gear and still no idea .......
key point to remember : Drag. Drag is the killer, overcoming drag by being more streamlined should be the goal. You can get stronger, more powerful, but drag WILL get you regardless. You can see this when comparing sprinters vs distance. The sprinters now look like body builders and swim often with straight arm pull. Distance swimmers are more svelte and wirey, they pull with the bent, high elbow. It exerts less force on the water, but results in less drag. You'll burn out very quickly trying to swim longer distance with a sprinters straight arm stroke.
Key things for those starting out: Head position (controls the height of the hips in the water. Head down, hips up)
Get some coaching, 1-to-1, swimming is a difficult sport to self train when it comes to technique... you can't see what any of your limbs are doing or anything, so it really needs a 3rd person perspective to spot the weak points.
Find someone who is going to get in the water with you. So they can see what you're doing underwater. Its not much cop doing it from the poolside.
I was going to mention goggles but, possibly for outdoor/open water tri swimming, if you need spec's to see and sight the cans then a proper pair with prescription lenses is probably a good idea. Obviously looking into the murky depths, it doesn't matter! But even in a pool, so long as you can make out the line on the floor and the T-shape at the end, that is all you need.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 19th November 14:04
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