Why is the UK at war with e-Bikes?
Discussion
I do personally think that younger people shouldn't be riding ebikes, but that's just imo.
Re this thing with hills - I've been riding a legal ebike (im a fat bloke of 67 with a bit of asthma and a very dodgy knee) for the past 5 years, my interaction with the lycra boys when riding out in the sticks is that they bowl past me and I never see them again. I cannot recall passing anyone who isn't old up a hill (on road - it is a bit different with my emtb).
E-bikes can be effortless up a hill but only in lower gears, as the weight counts against them. If anyone has seen elderly people riding effortlessly at a reasonable pace up any kind of proper hill, then I'm saying they weren't legal ebikes.
As for problems with legal ebikes - I don't think there are any, other than cost and the theft issue, but they're only problems for the owners, not for society at large.
I will remind, that there has been an explosion is sales in Europe, wife and I see large numbers of older people on ebikes, (huge nos in Spain in the winter) I have seen people who can barely walk riding confidently on them (a tandam in one case), I think it's fantastic to see all these people outside, exercising, and not in cars. In Blightly, we simply won't allow this choice.
Re this thing with hills - I've been riding a legal ebike (im a fat bloke of 67 with a bit of asthma and a very dodgy knee) for the past 5 years, my interaction with the lycra boys when riding out in the sticks is that they bowl past me and I never see them again. I cannot recall passing anyone who isn't old up a hill (on road - it is a bit different with my emtb).
E-bikes can be effortless up a hill but only in lower gears, as the weight counts against them. If anyone has seen elderly people riding effortlessly at a reasonable pace up any kind of proper hill, then I'm saying they weren't legal ebikes.
As for problems with legal ebikes - I don't think there are any, other than cost and the theft issue, but they're only problems for the owners, not for society at large.
I will remind, that there has been an explosion is sales in Europe, wife and I see large numbers of older people on ebikes, (huge nos in Spain in the winter) I have seen people who can barely walk riding confidently on them (a tandam in one case), I think it's fantastic to see all these people outside, exercising, and not in cars. In Blightly, we simply won't allow this choice.
Acuity30 said:
Getragdogleg said:
There are three problems with e bikes.
1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
Is C really a thing? How can they be cheating if they're not competing in a race?1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
heebeegeetee said:
I will remind, that there has been an explosion is sales in Europe, wife and I see large numbers of older people on ebikes, (huge nos in Spain in the winter) I have seen people who can barely walk riding confidently on them (a tandam in one case), I think it's fantastic to see all these people outside, exercising, and not in cars. In Blightly, we simply won't allow this choice.
How do we not allow people to ride e-bikes in the UK? It's perfectly legal, allowed and encouraged by the state to ride a bicycle or e-bike. People here choose not to use an e-bike for various reasons - traffic, fear, weather - but literally no-one is stopping themingenieur said:
I've had my e-bike a long time. It's a converted mountain bike which I've owned since I was 14 (as a normal bike). I converted it myself.
Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
Huge hills in London? Where.Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
Clampdown? Where? How come they are still all over that place.
Experienced keen cyclists can't do a short commute?
How come London is heaving with commuting cyclists?
250W not enough to get you up a hill? Are you serious?
heebeegeetee said:
I .....
I will remind, that there has been an explosion is sales in Europe, wife and I see large numbers of older people on ebikes, (huge nos in Spain in the winter) I have seen people who can barely walk riding confidently on them (a tandam in one case), I think it's fantastic to see all these people outside, exercising, and not in cars. In Blightly, we simply won't allow this choice.
Everywhere I've spent much time in euroland is much better for cycling than anywhere I've lived in the UK.I will remind, that there has been an explosion is sales in Europe, wife and I see large numbers of older people on ebikes, (huge nos in Spain in the winter) I have seen people who can barely walk riding confidently on them (a tandam in one case), I think it's fantastic to see all these people outside, exercising, and not in cars. In Blightly, we simply won't allow this choice.
Largely due to town planning I think.
But also some other societal tendencies seem to have encouraged people 'on the continent' to cycle to work, while in the UK few of us can rely on having a career where your job will always being in cycling distance for the ordinary person.
But I think the view we get as visitors can be distorting?
France buys about 3x the ebikes that we do.
That's possibly related to disposable income, but I'd hazard a guess that lots of people in France are using the same thought process as I am,
Is an ebike a good choice for the journeys I tend to make?
At the moment, for me the answer is 'not really' , but that will change if I move house.
It's the difference between buying bikes as toys or transport in many cases?
911hope said:
Huge hills in London? Where.
Clampdown? Where? How come they are still all over that place.
Experienced keen cyclists can't do a short commute?
How come London is heaving with commuting cyclists?
250W not enough to get you up a hill? Are you serious?
i commute north london to mayfair, takes 35 mins and has 1 hill (either swaines, archway or highgate depending on what i feel like) Clampdown? Where? How come they are still all over that place.
Experienced keen cyclists can't do a short commute?
How come London is heaving with commuting cyclists?
250W not enough to get you up a hill? Are you serious?
the hill takes about 3 minutes max at 300w. Having a motor might save me about 30 seconds only.
average watts on the commute might be 120w. having a motor isnt saving anytime.
911hope said:
E bikes are fine for people who have injuries, age or illness that makes the help necessary. For all others it is a path to lower fitness.
I think you are at cross purpose with the posts about commuting. Commuters who aren't cyclists or interested in getting into cycling, probably just want to get to work with minimum effort (maybe just lazy, maybe dont want to get sweaty for their office job).Literally sat on the bike, rolling on big comfy tyres with big mudguards , not pedalling at all producing 0 watts - think electric moped thats cheap to run and can go fast enough to be safe / make the journey time reasonable.
S
boyse7en said:
How do we not allow people to ride e-bikes in the UK? It's perfectly legal, allowed and encouraged by the state to ride a bicycle or e-bike. People here choose not to use an e-bike for various reasons - traffic, fear, weather - but literally no-one is stopping them
We won't provide the infrastructure. The big numbers of oldies on ebikes (and the mums, kids, families etc on normal bikes) are not mixing with the traffic. OutInTheShed said:
Everywhere I've spent much time in euroland is much better for cycling than anywhere I've lived in the UK.
Largely due to town planning I think.
But also some other societal tendencies seem to have encouraged people 'on the continent' to cycle to work, while in the UK few of us can rely on having a career where your job will always being in cycling distance for the ordinary person.
But I think the view we get as visitors can be distorting?
It's entirely road/town planning; I've an acquaintance who commutes 3 miles to work in Leicestershire, but because the road system between him and his workplace involves dual carriageways/junctions etc and has not been designed to accommodate cyclists at all he cannot cycle without feeling like he is risking death just commuting to work. He drives instead and will probably end up with an EV but he would prefer to cycle for fitness reasons, but it's not an option. In the Netherlands and in some other EU states road and town planning would have given him the option.Largely due to town planning I think.
But also some other societal tendencies seem to have encouraged people 'on the continent' to cycle to work, while in the UK few of us can rely on having a career where your job will always being in cycling distance for the ordinary person.
But I think the view we get as visitors can be distorting?
They don't spend a huge amount more on roads, they just spend it differently. Even if the UK decided to go the Netherlands route it wouldn't be a rapid change, it's taken 40+ years for the dutch to get their road network to where it is and it's still a work in progress. No one can visit the Netherlands and say they punish or disadvantage motorists, road tax levels aside, they just make sure cycling is at least as attractive an option; the UK should just get on with it and reap the same rewards in time.
hidetheelephants said:
It's entirely road/town planning; I've an acquaintance who commutes 3 miles to work in Leicestershire, but because the road system between him and his workplace involves dual carriageways/junctions etc and has not been designed to accommodate cyclists at all he cannot cycle without feeling like he is risking death just commuting to work. He drives instead and will probably end up with an EV but he would prefer to cycle for fitness reasons, but it's not an option. In the Netherlands and in some other EU states road and town planning would have given him the option.
They don't spend a huge amount more on roads, they just spend it differently. Even if the UK decided to go the Netherlands route it wouldn't be a rapid change, it's taken 40+ years for the dutch to get their road network to where it is and it's still a work in progress. No one can visit the Netherlands and say they punish or disadvantage motorists, road tax levels aside, they just make sure cycling is at least as attractive an option; the UK should just get on with it and reap the same rewards in time.
I think some of the town planning is 'chicken and egg' though.They don't spend a huge amount more on roads, they just spend it differently. Even if the UK decided to go the Netherlands route it wouldn't be a rapid change, it's taken 40+ years for the dutch to get their road network to where it is and it's still a work in progress. No one can visit the Netherlands and say they punish or disadvantage motorists, road tax levels aside, they just make sure cycling is at least as attractive an option; the UK should just get on with it and reap the same rewards in time.
UK planners don't design for bicycles because few people use bicycles.
30/40 years ago life was different UK vs 'continent'.
People in the UK generally didn't want to live close to their work, more people commuted longer distances, people changed employers more?
Netherlands is not a great comparison, I reckon most Dutch people I know would view cycling differently if they were moved to Bath or Bristol.
Personally I think the UK needs to think about making towns better for pedestrians as much as for cyclists.
OutInTheShed said:
I think some of the town planning is 'chicken and egg' though.
UK planners don't design for bicycles because few people use bicycles.
30/40 years ago life was different UK vs 'continent'.
People in the UK generally didn't want to live close to their work, more people commuted longer distances, people changed employers more?
Netherlands is not a great comparison, I reckon most Dutch people I know would view cycling differently if they were moved to Bath or Bristol.
Personally I think the UK needs to think about making towns better for pedestrians as much as for cyclists.
Postwar the Netherlands was quite like the UK in being car-centric, they did all the things UK town planners did in bulldozing town centres(or at least the ones that hadn't been levelled by the war) for the benefit of car drivers, the civic/political fights over changing to building roads that are as good for cycling as driving occurred from the mid 70s through to the mid 90s. The idea the Netherlands is special or different is only true in the sense they're ~40 years further down the path of making cycling(and pedestrianing) a less sUK planners don't design for bicycles because few people use bicycles.
30/40 years ago life was different UK vs 'continent'.
People in the UK generally didn't want to live close to their work, more people commuted longer distances, people changed employers more?
Netherlands is not a great comparison, I reckon most Dutch people I know would view cycling differently if they were moved to Bath or Bristol.
Personally I think the UK needs to think about making towns better for pedestrians as much as for cyclists.
tty experience. hidetheelephants said:
... The idea the Netherlands is special or different is only true in the sense they're ~40 years further down the path of making cycling(and pedestrianing) a less stty experience.
Ignoring the fact that they have a lot less hills...tty experience. Which is why I think it's more useful to look beyond Holland and consider the rest of euroland.
Where I working in Germany, they have good cycle paths, bit hilly, but an e-bike would be ideal.
Also it was possible to walk from one side of town to the other, crossing very few roads
I haven't read the last 7 pages, but I did read the first 2, but let me dissect this whole issue.
Firstly, the regulations as they stand assume that you want to cycle but you need some assistance, but because you have to pedal to get the assistance your healt will ultimately benefit.
Second, the powers that be, have looked at the safety aspects and said, look, it's a bicycle, carries a bit more weight but not more than say a panniers and a fat person and really the brakes and tyres on most bikes are a bit st, and because we don't want to MOT them, we'd better limit them to say 15 mph.
So hand throttle? Not really in the spirit of "requires some effort from.the user" I do think if you are registered disabled this should be allowed though.
So, enough power to overtake mopeds ? Erm not really in the spirit of the "like a bicycle but a bit of assistance so you can go further and go up hills without having to get off and push it"
E bikes are for slightly unfit people who want to go a bit further and a bit quicker than pushing
Once you add extra power and a hand throttle you have broken the spirit and the letter of the law.
As far as home brewed efforts go, my uncle now 85, adapted a Raleigh shopper about 40 years ago.
I don't know the exact details but he had 2x6 volt motorcycle batteries and a small electric motor. Top speed on the flat was about 10 mph, unless he was peddling downhill and then it depended on gravity. He had a sprung loaded go button on the handlebars. He said he'd looked at a sinclair C5 and decided he could do better. Remember it was Clive Sinclair that fked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow.
Firstly, the regulations as they stand assume that you want to cycle but you need some assistance, but because you have to pedal to get the assistance your healt will ultimately benefit.
Second, the powers that be, have looked at the safety aspects and said, look, it's a bicycle, carries a bit more weight but not more than say a panniers and a fat person and really the brakes and tyres on most bikes are a bit s
t, and because we don't want to MOT them, we'd better limit them to say 15 mph. So hand throttle? Not really in the spirit of "requires some effort from.the user" I do think if you are registered disabled this should be allowed though.
So, enough power to overtake mopeds ? Erm not really in the spirit of the "like a bicycle but a bit of assistance so you can go further and go up hills without having to get off and push it"
E bikes are for slightly unfit people who want to go a bit further and a bit quicker than pushing
Once you add extra power and a hand throttle you have broken the spirit and the letter of the law.
As far as home brewed efforts go, my uncle now 85, adapted a Raleigh shopper about 40 years ago.
I don't know the exact details but he had 2x6 volt motorcycle batteries and a small electric motor. Top speed on the flat was about 10 mph, unless he was peddling downhill and then it depended on gravity. He had a sprung loaded go button on the handlebars. He said he'd looked at a sinclair C5 and decided he could do better. Remember it was Clive Sinclair that f
ked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow. Ignore the trolling. All bikes are great, ebikes included, and personal choice of model and type of bike is as personal as choosing the car you drive, house you own, fashion/clothes you wear.
What is more of an issue, and the reason for this thread, is the use of eMotorbikes or eMoped or eScooters because 'honest they are just fine, and really it is just a fast and powerful Pedalec/eBike' when they are patently not and there are laws. By ignoring those laws we end up with both a bad name for all cyclists because in the culture wars nobody needs an excuse to use it against cyclists AND puts you in a place where should an incident occur you are riding a motorbike without license, insurance, MOT, tax...
What is more of an issue, and the reason for this thread, is the use of eMotorbikes or eMoped or eScooters because 'honest they are just fine, and really it is just a fast and powerful Pedalec/eBike' when they are patently not and there are laws. By ignoring those laws we end up with both a bad name for all cyclists because in the culture wars nobody needs an excuse to use it against cyclists AND puts you in a place where should an incident occur you are riding a motorbike without license, insurance, MOT, tax...
Pit Pony said:
I ....r. Remember it was Clive Sinclair that fked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow.
To be fair to Mr Sinclair, it would be interesting to see how the C5 concept might have worked out with modern batteries etc.ked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow. OutInTheShed said:
hidetheelephants said:
... The idea the Netherlands is special or different is only true in the sense they're ~40 years further down the path of making cycling(and pedestrianing) a less stty experience.
Ignoring the fact that they have a lot less hills...tty experience. Which is why I think it's more useful to look beyond Holland and consider the rest of euroland.
Where I working in Germany, they have good cycle paths, bit hilly, but an e-bike would be ideal.
Also it was possible to walk from one side of town to the other, crossing very few roads
OutInTheShed said:
Pit Pony said:
I ....r. Remember it was Clive Sinclair that fked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow.
To be fair to Mr Sinclair, it would be interesting to see how the C5 concept might have worked out with modern batteries etc.ked up the take up use of ebikes for decades by not producing a conventional bike with assistance as the regulations were designed to allow. Fit ebiker here - I was doing 3 to 4k hilly commuting miles per year on conventional high end road and gravel bikes and had done for a number of years. But it was starting to fatigue me as I got older (and we also got a dog with the associated 10mile daily walks).
I used to have a high average speed and would be doing 25+mph keeping up with traffic on many sections of my commute.
I bought a standard first generation Trek ebike with mudguards and built in lights. Perfect for commuting...... except it was very difficult to push above the 15.5mph cut off due to its weight.
I hacked/chipped it to get a higher 20+ mph cut off and it became useful again.
However! After awhile it dawned on me that I could take the hillier scenic route well away from traffic instead. I'd not really thought about this when I bought the bike as I was too blinkered with the original quick/short route and using the ebike as a direct replacement.
I've since returned it back to standard 15.5mph cut off and have a nicer more laid back traffic free route.
When bikes and traffic are segregated then a standard ebike is the perfect commuting device.
The lack of segregation and the culture wars anti cycling rhetoric is the issue to widespread ebike uptake.
I used to have a high average speed and would be doing 25+mph keeping up with traffic on many sections of my commute.
I bought a standard first generation Trek ebike with mudguards and built in lights. Perfect for commuting...... except it was very difficult to push above the 15.5mph cut off due to its weight.
I hacked/chipped it to get a higher 20+ mph cut off and it became useful again.
However! After awhile it dawned on me that I could take the hillier scenic route well away from traffic instead. I'd not really thought about this when I bought the bike as I was too blinkered with the original quick/short route and using the ebike as a direct replacement.
I've since returned it back to standard 15.5mph cut off and have a nicer more laid back traffic free route.
When bikes and traffic are segregated then a standard ebike is the perfect commuting device.
The lack of segregation and the culture wars anti cycling rhetoric is the issue to widespread ebike uptake.
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