Track day damage...

Track day damage...

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Discussion

steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
Quick question - if you come off on a track day and hit a barrier which gets damaged or perhaps you hit another car - are you liable ?

No plans to do this - just don't want to get left with a big bill !!

DocJock

6,745 posts

200 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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Not on any trackday I have ever attended

jonnyleroux

1,511 posts

220 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
steve singh said:
Quick question - if you come off on a track day and hit a barrier which gets damaged or perhaps you hit another car - are you liable ?

No plans to do this - just don't want to get left with a big bill !!
You're not liable for car-to-car damage, but you could find yourself liable for damage to the circuit. It's pretty rare in the UK (never happened to BookaTrack, but I know of another TDO that was charged for damage to the circuit scenery and they had to pursue the driver for payment).

In Europe it's common to be slapped with a hefty bill for armco repairs (especially Spa/Nurburg).

Jonny
BaT

Marcellus

6,827 posts

179 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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I would have thought you might be liable for car to car damage if it was agreed/proven you were at fault.

framerateuk

2,546 posts

144 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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You will usually sign a waver saying that no-one is responsible for any damage to your own car. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay up if they hit me to be honest... though I can imagine if I'd been hit by some idiot hooning around then I'd be pretty miffed on the day.

mrmr96

13,736 posts

164 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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Marcellus said:
I would have thought you might be liable for car to car damage if it was agreed/proven you were at fault.
You thought wrong then.

I have track insurance, not because I expect to crash but because there's a risk someone may crash into me. Getting my own (first party only) insurance is the mitigation for this.

It's not like on the roads.

spikeyhead

11,960 posts

157 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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mrmr96 said:
Marcellus said:
I would have thought you might be liable for car to car damage if it was agreed/proven you were at fault.
You thought wrong then.

I have track insurance, not because I expect to crash but because there's a risk someone may crash into me. Getting my own (first party only) insurance is the mitigation for this.

It's not like on the roads.
I believe that if you can prove they were negligent then they could be found liable. I suspect that it's never happened though.

DavidY

4,234 posts

244 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
spikeyhead said:
mrmr96 said:
Marcellus said:
I would have thought you might be liable for car to car damage if it was agreed/proven you were at fault.
You thought wrong then.

I have track insurance, not because I expect to crash but because there's a risk someone may crash into me. Getting my own (first party only) insurance is the mitigation for this.

It's not like on the roads.
I believe that if you can prove they were negligent then they could be found liable. I suspect that it's never happened though.
Realistically the only time that this is ever going to happen if there is personal injury involved. Most track day accidents that I've seen seem to be solo affairs, very very rare to have vehicle to vehicle contact.

steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
Cool, thanks all...it was the 'ring stories i've heard which made me ask the question.

All systems go therefore in getting a £1k mx5 for the track in the knowledge that my maximum write down is the value of the car...(though i'd obviously take it careful as i'm not built of rubber!!!)

mrmr96

13,736 posts

164 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
steve singh said:
Cool, thanks all...it was the 'ring stories i've heard which made me ask the question.

All systems go therefore in getting a £1k mx5 for the track in the knowledge that my maximum write down is the value of the car...(though i'd obviously take it careful as i'm not built of rubber!!!)
Hmm, although the legal situation is pretty clear in the UK I'd be wary of taking an oil dropped to Nurburgring - the rules there are different.

Also, again accepting the rules are what they are, I am getting a bit fed up with people thinking that buying a "shed" or "snotter" for trackdays is a good idea. You seem gleeful that you can take a £1k car on track with other people driving their P&J and that you'll not be liable almost whatever happens.

I've seen people on track with this attitude before, and it's not nice. Just because your losses are limited doesn't mean that it's right or fair to be reckless. Nor does it make it right or fair to take a car which might cause another driver to have a crash due to dropped fluids, or require a red flag to recover when it cuts out on circuit.

Not necessarily aimed at you personally, just like I said, I prefer when other people have a bit more than £1k at risk so that they will have a more vested interest in 'taking care'.

Elderly

3,105 posts

198 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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What would happen if you (or somebody else) had reported another car/driver
for driving dangerously to the TDO for not obeying the briefing rules, but that car/driver then went on to damage another car later in the day by driving in a similar dangerous manner?

steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
steve singh said:
Cool, thanks all...it was the 'ring stories i've heard which made me ask the question.

All systems go therefore in getting a £1k mx5 for the track in the knowledge that my maximum write down is the value of the car...(though i'd obviously take it careful as i'm not built of rubber!!!)
Hmm, although the legal situation is pretty clear in the UK I'd be wary of taking an oil dropped to Nurburgring - the rules there are different.

Also, again accepting the rules are what they are, I am getting a bit fed up with people thinking that buying a "shed" or "snotter" for trackdays is a good idea. You seem gleeful that you can take a £1k car on track with other people driving their P&J and that you'll not be liable almost whatever happens.

I've seen people on track with this attitude before, and it's not nice. Just because your losses are limited doesn't mean that it's right or fair to be reckless. Nor does it make it right or fair to take a car which might cause another driver to have a crash due to dropped fluids, or require a red flag to recover when it cuts out on circuit.

Not necessarily aimed at you personally, just like I said, I prefer when other people have a bit more than £1k at risk so that they will have a more vested interest in 'taking care'.
1 - I'm aware of the Nurgburgring situation which is why I referenced in my subsequent post and actually prompted myself to start the thread.

2 - whilst you said the post wasn't aimed at myself, it was quite directly loaded against my points and hence I feel I need to respond.

I've owned many "top end" motors during my time (current garage is a 996 & M3) and consider myself to be entirely respectful and mature - I know full well about P&Js and my 996/M3 will not go near a track per se due to concerns around stone chips which hopefully demonstrates my level of OCD etc.

I would never go onto a track/road and be reckless as I can 'afford to bin a £1k car' - firstly my personal safety is paramount, secondly others personal safety is paramount, thirdly I'm quite risk averse and forthly I wouldn't want to damage anyones car through stupidity.

However the reason for my enthusiasm is that I've never done a track day and I know accidents can happen - a quick spin, a loss of control - the very fact they are called accidents relate to the fact they're not deliberate in nature (I would always try and drive within my limits).

Had my liability been unlimited then I simply wouldn't take the risk of an accident occuring - what if I hit a patch of oil, spun off and hit a barrier and got left with a £20k bill?

The fact that this isn't the situation and the fact a £1k car that I don't have to care about stone chips on and which offers very cheap consumables is what lead me to appear 'gleeful' as you put it.

I'm also exploring the idea of a rollcage (see mx5 forum) - does this mean I'm planning on seeing how the world looks upside down ?

Hopefully I'll get to meet a few of you on the various track days that I'm planning to do in 2013 - I responded to this post as I don't want anyone to get the wrong first impression should I have the good fortune to meet anyone from here.

ETA: Also if you have a quick read over on the porsche forum threads where some GT3 and Turbos were driven in my view far too aggressively you can see where I generate from - whether someone is in a £1k car or a £100k car doesn't stipulate the respect you'll show for others...it's your own personal mindset and morals.

Edited by steve singh on Friday 7th December 16:57

Munter

30,164 posts

201 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
Hmm, although the legal situation is pretty clear in the UK I'd be wary of taking an oil dropped to Nurburgring - the rules there are different.

Also, again accepting the rules are what they are, I am getting a bit fed up with people thinking that buying a "shed" or "snotter" for trackdays is a good idea. You seem gleeful that you can take a £1k car on track with other people driving their P&J and that you'll not be liable almost whatever happens.

I've seen people on track with this attitude before, and it's not nice. Just because your losses are limited doesn't mean that it's right or fair to be reckless. Nor does it make it right or fair to take a car which might cause another driver to have a crash due to dropped fluids, or require a red flag to recover when it cuts out on circuit.

Not necessarily aimed at you personally, just like I said, I prefer when other people have a bit more than £1k at risk so that they will have a more vested interest in 'taking care'.
Bit harsh. Chances are that a 1k MX5 is mechanically sound and a good base for a track car. Body might be a bit tatty but otherwise not an issue. I sold mine for £900 and it had wanted for nothing to make sure it was solid and safe on track.

More often than not the people I find trying daft things around me on track, are driving the big flash motor, so they catch up down a long straight and try to outbrake the MX5 into the corner.

If he'd said £300 MX5 I'd have been concerned. £1k no problem.

steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
Munter said:
mrmr96 said:
Hmm, although the legal situation is pretty clear in the UK I'd be wary of taking an oil dropped to Nurburgring - the rules there are different.

Also, again accepting the rules are what they are, I am getting a bit fed up with people thinking that buying a "shed" or "snotter" for trackdays is a good idea. You seem gleeful that you can take a £1k car on track with other people driving their P&J and that you'll not be liable almost whatever happens.

I've seen people on track with this attitude before, and it's not nice. Just because your losses are limited doesn't mean that it's right or fair to be reckless. Nor does it make it right or fair to take a car which might cause another driver to have a crash due to dropped fluids, or require a red flag to recover when it cuts out on circuit.

Not necessarily aimed at you personally, just like I said, I prefer when other people have a bit more than £1k at risk so that they will have a more vested interest in 'taking care'.
Bit harsh. Chances are that a 1k MX5 is mechanically sound and a good base for a track car. Body might be a bit tatty but otherwise not an issue. I sold mine for £900 and it had wanted for nothing to make sure it was solid and safe on track.

More often than not the people I find trying daft things around me on track, are driving the big flash motor, so they catch up down a long straight and try to outbrake the MX5 into the corner.

If he'd said £300 MX5 I'd have been concerned. £1k no problem.
The irony is he himself was looking at a fiesta/mx5 as a track day car...had i read some of his posting history beforehand i wouldn't have bothered to even respond to him TBH

A D C

45 posts

178 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
steve singh said:
Cool, thanks all...it was the 'ring stories i've heard which made me ask the question.

All systems go therefore in getting a £1k mx5 for the track in the knowledge that my maximum write down is the value of the car...(though i'd obviously take it careful as i'm not built of rubber!!!)
Although you're not LEGALLY liable for damage to you do to another vehicle, MORALLY is something entirely different. I would really urge to think long and hard about turning up at a track day with the attitude of "stuff the rest of 'em, I'm OK". There will always be some 50:50 things that happen but if you spin and you t-bone another car and then just shrug your shoulders. . . . . Well do you really think that's OK?


steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
A D C said:
steve singh said:
Cool, thanks all...it was the 'ring stories i've heard which made me ask the question.

All systems go therefore in getting a £1k mx5 for the track in the knowledge that my maximum write down is the value of the car...(though i'd obviously take it careful as i'm not built of rubber!!!)
Although you're not LEGALLY liable for damage to you do to another vehicle, MORALLY is something entirely different. I would really urge to think long and hard about turning up at a track day with the attitude of "stuff the rest of 'em, I'm OK". There will always be some 50:50 things that happen but if you spin and you t-bone another car and then just shrug your shoulders. . . . . Well do you really think that's OK?

For god sake - did you even bother to read my previous 2 responses or were you just too busy generalising and making assumptions about my morals???

Edited by steve singh on Friday 7th December 18:45

mrmr96

13,736 posts

164 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
steve singh said:
The irony is he himself was looking at a fiesta/mx5 as a track day car...had i read some of his posting history beforehand i wouldn't have bothered to even respond to him TBH
Hi Steve,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm actually glad you took offence at my comments, shows that contrary to my initial impression you probably are a responsible kind of person. smile

When you've done as many trackdays as I have you will learn to be cautious of the guys running the cheapest cars. They're not all irresponsible, but a higher percentage of them are compared to those running better condition cars. Sweeping generalisation and I know there's exceptions to the rule (both ways!) but I'm commenting on past experience here, so hopefully you'll excuse my comments which really were not aimed directly at you.

FWIW I've not looked at Fiesta's for trackdays, but I did briefly when I was looking into racing - different kettle of fish! I've got an Evo which was £18k when I bought it which I use on trackdays.

Good luck with it.
Cheers.

steve singh

Original Poster:

3,995 posts

133 months

Saturday 8th December 2012
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
steve singh said:
The irony is he himself was looking at a fiesta/mx5 as a track day car...had i read some of his posting history beforehand i wouldn't have bothered to even respond to him TBH
Hi Steve,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm actually glad you took offence at my comments, shows that contrary to my initial impression you probably are a responsible kind of person. smile

When you've done as many trackdays as I have you will learn to be cautious of the guys running the cheapest cars. They're not all irresponsible, but a higher percentage of them are compared to those running better condition cars. Sweeping generalisation and I know there's exceptions to the rule (both ways!) but I'm commenting on past experience here, so hopefully you'll excuse my comments which really were not aimed directly at you.

FWIW I've not looked at Fiesta's for trackdays, but I did briefly when I was looking into racing - different kettle of fish! I've got an Evo which was £18k when I bought it which I use on trackdays.

Good luck with it.
Cheers.
No worries beer

SepticTank

3 posts

18 months

Saturday 24th October
quotequote all
mrmr96 said:
Hmm, although the legal situation is pretty clear in the UK I'd be wary of taking an oil dropped to Nurburgring - the rules there are different.

Also, again accepting the rules are what they are, I am getting a bit fed up with people thinking that buying a "shed" or "snotter" for trackdays is a good idea. You seem gleeful that you can take a £1k car on track with other people driving their P&J and that you'll not be liable almost whatever happens.

I've seen people on track with this attitude before, and it's not nice. Just because your losses are limited doesn't mean that it's right or fair to be reckless. Nor does it make it right or fair to take a car which might cause another driver to have a crash due to dropped fluids, or require a red flag to recover when it cuts out on circuit.

Not necessarily aimed at you personally, just like I said, I prefer when other people have a bit more than £1k at risk so that they will have a more vested interest in 'taking care'.
Couldn’t agree with you more. I think there should be fairly strict scrutineering on all track days with the organisers reserving the right to refuse to allow an entrant to access the track if their vehicle isn’t up to scratch. I remember, back around 1998 I think, taking my 1973 highly modded Mini 1275GT to Santa Pod where it was quite thoroughly inspected before being allowed to run any drag sessions. All I needed to do, after inspection, was to fit an oil catcher to my crankcase breather tube. Luckily the scrutineers had a selection of old fizzy drink cans and cable ties to assist.
More recently, end of last year, I tracked at Goodwood in my s/c’d GTS86 and, apart from an initial decibel test, didn’t attract anything further. I imagine if I had turned up in the old mini (if I still owned it *sob*) it might have been different.

SepticTank

3 posts

18 months

Saturday 24th October
quotequote all
In addition to my comments,
I think that any car that is worth £1000, and which the owner wishes to take on a track day, should at the very least be given a clean bill of health, in the context of using it for track events, by a mechanic competent enough to make a good assessment of the car.

Tearing around a race track puts masses more stress on many of the cars components. I’m not necessarily saying that that stress will exceed the original design limitations, however by the time you get to the point that a car is worth £1000 it’s a fair assumption that it’s a good bit more than just a few years old, and many parts of a car, that are mostly invisible to the owner, will be worn, rusted, becoming loose, and on their way to failure under normal conditions let alone the stresses involved running a track day. Add into the mix high g-force cornering, braking, and acceleration and you are exponentially increasing the likelihood of that failure to occur on the track. This can be especially true of brakes, shocks, oil and brake fluid and radiator hoses and other such ‘consumable’ items. You then become a hazard to yourself and to any driver you happen to be close to at the time, or that is following behind you.

Regardless, by the sound of it Steve you have a mature and sensible head on your shoulders. I hope you have a great deal of safe and enjoyable fun with your track experiences. Picking a track with strict policies around overtaking, and limits on the number of cars allowed on the track in any one session, would be a great way to start so that you begin to build confidence in yourself and the car. I know that Goodwood is run superbly, albeit it is quite expensive, allowing (I think though I’ve never counted) around 12 cars max at any one time. On top of that they are very clear about what to do to maximise safety when you have a car steaming up behind you.

Enjoy.