Discussion
Why are you saying...
Caterham-no thanks
Westfield-possibly
Bike engined Caterham-possibly
Have you tried a K series Caterham? Should be do-able for 17k, and the K is properly revvy, and really, really sounds it too. Ignore all the talk about a K being a super fragile rubbish engine, stick it in a Freelander or MGF and it doesn't have a great history, but in a Caterham (and assuming the head gasket dowels will have been changed by now) it's absolutely fantastic and hugely tuneable too. In fairness mine is the banzai R400 version on roller barrels (200bhp in a 520kg car) but the lower tuned, "in budget" versions are fantastic engines and much revvier/screamier than the Sigma cars.
Although I'm not going to attempt to argue the "weather proof" point, although a half hood makes a huge difference.
Caterham-no thanks
Westfield-possibly
Bike engined Caterham-possibly
Have you tried a K series Caterham? Should be do-able for 17k, and the K is properly revvy, and really, really sounds it too. Ignore all the talk about a K being a super fragile rubbish engine, stick it in a Freelander or MGF and it doesn't have a great history, but in a Caterham (and assuming the head gasket dowels will have been changed by now) it's absolutely fantastic and hugely tuneable too. In fairness mine is the banzai R400 version on roller barrels (200bhp in a 520kg car) but the lower tuned, "in budget" versions are fantastic engines and much revvier/screamier than the Sigma cars.
Although I'm not going to attempt to argue the "weather proof" point, although a half hood makes a huge difference.
braddo said:
250hp/ton Elise with Duratec - £18500.
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I would be buying myself.
I don't agree. they are fantastic cars on track, and once tyres (AND driver) are warm you can feel the slip at the limit. however, it only takes a little push and you can spin badly. clams are very expensive. FE cars allow so much more freedom to push the limit and then catch it if you go too far. I'd suggest Caterham, Ginetta or mx5. cost wise you can buy or build a really good 5 for 17k with more power, brakes, bracing and suspension. Caterham is awesome but too raw on the road for many, especially on a cold wet day on the drive home. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I would be buying myself.
I take my Elise on track occasionally, but I'm holding something in reserve more often.
To be fair you are right that I might want to soften a track-focussed one after seeing how I go. My Elise was on stock suspension and the Yoko tyres at the time that weren't the track ones (Advan something).
The softer suspension and lower grip meant it was beautifully balanced and adjustable on track, but I had to creep up to the limits. A few talented folk get them oversteering a lot (LSD and the right toe settings) but not me!
A neutral slide through no-name at Goodwood:
The softer suspension and lower grip meant it was beautifully balanced and adjustable on track, but I had to creep up to the limits. A few talented folk get them oversteering a lot (LSD and the right toe settings) but not me!
A neutral slide through no-name at Goodwood:
CABC said:
FE cars allow so much more freedom to push the limit and then catch it if you go too far. I'd suggest Caterham, Ginetta or mx5.
In fairness, a Ginetta G40 is a pretty snappy car (certainly compared to an MX5 or a Caterham). The wheel base is barely longer than the track width. I've done many track days in mid-engined road cars and they are very flattering compared to the Ginetta (translation: My hamfistedness has lead to more spins in the Ginetta in 6 months than I have had in Porsches in 5 years!)I do totally agree about the cost of repairing an Elise though. The chassis is a bit specialist if you bend it and the bodywork is a bit pricey if you want to keep it looking nice. In hindsight, the most enjoyable and fastest car on track is either one you don't have to pay for or one that you don't care about keeping nice.
LennyM1984 said:
In hindsight, the most enjoyable and fastest car on track is either one you don't have to pay for or one that you don't care about keeping nice.
this.my Elise is a keeper. it won't be replaced by anybody now so I better look after it.
my first mx5 track started as a rough old nail that benefitted from 10k of upgrades over 4 years. money never recouped but the best 10k I've spent tbh. great journey and learning experience with each mod.
didn't know that about the Ginettas. enjoy your journey, so much more rewarding when you have to work at it.
Thanks for the comments guys. Pretty interesting thread for me at least.
Ginetta! Very good idea. I have looked at these in the past but figured they would be too hard to sell and a bit one trick pony.
On the caterham front. Ive had a similar non-caterham with the de-dion rear axel and 300bhp built charged meth'd duratec before i didnt get on with it. I know they are legendary but not for me. Westfield have independent rear suspension and wide body (im not small). Only westy id go for is the mega s2000 as i love the idea of that engine and gearbox in lightweight chassis. I just know i cant be arsed with the bad weather unless it was mega special. I know people on here will drive all weather, but im just being honest with myself, i wont.
I could be talked into a Nomad if they were 30k not 60. Dont ask me to reason why tho.
Ginetta! Very good idea. I have looked at these in the past but figured they would be too hard to sell and a bit one trick pony.
On the caterham front. Ive had a similar non-caterham with the de-dion rear axel and 300bhp built charged meth'd duratec before i didnt get on with it. I know they are legendary but not for me. Westfield have independent rear suspension and wide body (im not small). Only westy id go for is the mega s2000 as i love the idea of that engine and gearbox in lightweight chassis. I just know i cant be arsed with the bad weather unless it was mega special. I know people on here will drive all weather, but im just being honest with myself, i wont.
I could be talked into a Nomad if they were 30k not 60. Dont ask me to reason why tho.
braddo said:
Interesting about the Ginetta. Where are they usually listed for sale?
www.racecarsdirect.com is the main uk track classifieds but £12k is very optimistic imho, they are usually over £15k and long cockpit versions are a bit more. Check out Want2Race who hire them out at Donington OP, even from the first post, everything seems to point to an M140i. You default to it as a benchmark and nothing seems to match the various factors such as cost, power, reliability and maintenance etc
pablo said:
OP, even from the first post, everything seems to point to an M140i. You default to it as a benchmark and nothing seems to match the various factors such as cost, power, reliability and maintenance etc
we can debate this point: "And one I can do daily chores without the sacrifice of feel/involvement." Yes I’m really validating my m140 idea from another thread.
I guess what concerns me is that it’s kind of dull and I like having different experiences
I think what I’m really complaining about is the current price of cars. Plenty of ones I’d like but they all seem very highly priced.
How about a r33 or r35 gtr ?
S2000 is a good shout but I might as well just cage my z.
350 or 370 could be a nice cheap option.
C5 z06 would be perfect if they are still 20k
C6 for 20k would also do but not many around.
Tvr?
Perhaps I need to go rent a few cars at trackdays and see what I actually prefer.
I guess what concerns me is that it’s kind of dull and I like having different experiences
I think what I’m really complaining about is the current price of cars. Plenty of ones I’d like but they all seem very highly priced.
How about a r33 or r35 gtr ?
S2000 is a good shout but I might as well just cage my z.
350 or 370 could be a nice cheap option.
C5 z06 would be perfect if they are still 20k
C6 for 20k would also do but not many around.
Tvr?
Perhaps I need to go rent a few cars at trackdays and see what I actually prefer.
I think I read the 987.1 needs a baffled sump for trackdays if you use decent tyres. I think design 911 do a sump.
I have seen GT3 discs fitted using 987 callipers on spacers and a thin spacer behind the disc.
Great handling car, quick enough and there are lots of track mods available for the suspension.
Porsches are good at soaking up track miles.
If i was changing the diff for a LSD then I would look at lowering the final drive ratio.
I have seen GT3 discs fitted using 987 callipers on spacers and a thin spacer behind the disc.
Great handling car, quick enough and there are lots of track mods available for the suspension.
Porsches are good at soaking up track miles.
If i was changing the diff for a LSD then I would look at lowering the final drive ratio.
I did about 20 track days in my 2.7 987.1 and it was great. Other than consumables, I had no issues and no expensive repairs and I had no problem keeping up with/passing faster cars. The only modification that is "essential" is more camber on the front. I used adjustable Powerflex bushes and that enabled me to get to -2 all round.
Personally, I would be a little wary of the Gen 1 S model. The engine is a little fragile and it's expensive to replace/rebuild.
In terms of a deep sump, it's not a bad idea but unless you are running slicks and stiff suspension, I wouldn't be massively concerned about it in the first instance.
Personally, I would be a little wary of the Gen 1 S model. The engine is a little fragile and it's expensive to replace/rebuild.
In terms of a deep sump, it's not a bad idea but unless you are running slicks and stiff suspension, I wouldn't be massively concerned about it in the first instance.
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