the ring, insurance questions
Discussion
Soovy lordy how are you still harping on about this.
Its not easy to get 'ring insurance, but it is still posible, just put some leg work in for goodness sake.
Ok it is a lot tougher from later part of this year as a big player that covered many of us has pulled its ring cover- due to amount of claims, hence most folks inc me, not wanting to let on to anyone who they get cover with.
It may be the case that in 2011 its going to be really really tough to sort & indeed I may be stuffed myself, but up to sept 2010 anyway it was pretty easy peasy with several big players.
Its not easy to get 'ring insurance, but it is still posible, just put some leg work in for goodness sake.
Ok it is a lot tougher from later part of this year as a big player that covered many of us has pulled its ring cover- due to amount of claims, hence most folks inc me, not wanting to let on to anyone who they get cover with.
It may be the case that in 2011 its going to be really really tough to sort & indeed I may be stuffed myself, but up to sept 2010 anyway it was pretty easy peasy with several big players.
winshent said:
What's the difference from an insurance perspective between a TF day and an official track day.. Is cover available for track days to cover all risks?
Big question and ultimately a grey area though the general acceptance, and usually buried somewhere in a form you sign before taking part in a track day is, you do so at entirely your own risk. If someone hits you/injures you, well you knew it could happen so tough. The Tourist days at the ring are legally (under German legislation at least) public roads, so if someone hits you/injures you, then the police are called in, blame is apportioned and the party at fault is liable for repairs, medical bills etc.
Track day cover generally comes with a very high excess and covers only your own car, regardless of how it came to have its side caved in and axle bent, beit your fault or the person in the Caterham that lost it in front of you and ended up side swipping you as you swerved past him as he took his foot off the brakes mid spin.
Edited by ALY77 on Thursday 28th October 12:47
ALY77 said:
winshent said:
What's the difference from an insurance perspective between a TF day and an official track day.. Is cover available for track days to cover all risks?
Big question and ultimately a grey area though the general acceptance, and usually buried somewhere in a form you sign before taking part in a track day is, you do so at entirely your own risk. If someone hits you/injures you, well you knew it could happen so tough. winshent said:
ALY77 said:
winshent said:
What's the difference from an insurance perspective between a TF day and an official track day.. Is cover available for track days to cover all risks?
Big question and ultimately a grey area though the general acceptance, and usually buried somewhere in a form you sign before taking part in a track day is, you do so at entirely your own risk. If someone hits you/injures you, well you knew it could happen so tough. The Crack Fox said:
Said:
On a more sobering note, I've translated for a Brit mate who hit a German, Police were also involved. I got talking to a local copper (based in Adenau, very friendly as it happens), she told me 'no one is insured here in reality'.
(
Don't understand that quote as written. I have a German registered car, address etc, and its guaranteed that I am legally covered on a TF. However if I drive like a lunatic then it is a different matter.On a more sobering note, I've translated for a Brit mate who hit a German, Police were also involved. I got talking to a local copper (based in Adenau, very friendly as it happens), she told me 'no one is insured here in reality'.
(
winshent said:
ALY77 said:
winshent said:
What's the difference from an insurance perspective between a TF day and an official track day.. Is cover available for track days to cover all risks?
Big question and ultimately a grey area though the general acceptance, and usually buried somewhere in a form you sign before taking part in a track day is, you do so at entirely your own risk. If someone hits you/injures you, well you knew it could happen so tough. Same with any sport. You accept there is some risk, but you don't have to accept any risk.
moris does 1st party cover. its only 1st party cover though.
What your Policy covers:
External accident damage (i.e. impact) to the car only whilst engaged in the specified track day activity.
Fire damage but only if directly following an accident (i.e. impact).
The costs of repairing the car or, if insurers decide, pay you or the legal owner (should the car be subject to hire
purchase or lease) an amount in full settlement.
Any amount paid cannot be more than the car's market value at the time of the accident and all claims are subject to an
excess/deductible as shown on the Trackday Insurance details.
Labour costs up to £50 per hour including VAT
What your Policy does not cover:
Bikes.
Internal damage to the engine or to the gearbox or transmission.
Mechanical, electrical or computer breakdown, howsoever caused.
Liability to other participants, to any third parties or to passengers or any property damage.
Competitive driving, (in other words, whilst racing or on timed runs or trials).
Consumable items such as tyres, oils, linings etc.
Extra costs involved in repairing specialised paintwork and logos unless specifically agreed.
Shipping / Transportation / Recovery costs. (Note: insurance of recovery costs for circuits in England, Scotland or Wales
is available as an optional extension. This option is made available when completing your payment for vehicle damage
insurance online).
Labour costs exceeding £50 per hour (including VAT).
Damage to the interior of the car caused as a direct result of airbag deployment.
Loss or damage to the car whilst being driven by any person other than those specified within the Confirmation of Cover
document.
so not much use for any sort of incident that might ACTUALLY occur then.
What your Policy covers:
External accident damage (i.e. impact) to the car only whilst engaged in the specified track day activity.
Fire damage but only if directly following an accident (i.e. impact).
The costs of repairing the car or, if insurers decide, pay you or the legal owner (should the car be subject to hire
purchase or lease) an amount in full settlement.
Any amount paid cannot be more than the car's market value at the time of the accident and all claims are subject to an
excess/deductible as shown on the Trackday Insurance details.
Labour costs up to £50 per hour including VAT
What your Policy does not cover:
Bikes.
Internal damage to the engine or to the gearbox or transmission.
Mechanical, electrical or computer breakdown, howsoever caused.
Liability to other participants, to any third parties or to passengers or any property damage.
Competitive driving, (in other words, whilst racing or on timed runs or trials).
Consumable items such as tyres, oils, linings etc.
Extra costs involved in repairing specialised paintwork and logos unless specifically agreed.
Shipping / Transportation / Recovery costs. (Note: insurance of recovery costs for circuits in England, Scotland or Wales
is available as an optional extension. This option is made available when completing your payment for vehicle damage
insurance online).
Labour costs exceeding £50 per hour (including VAT).
Damage to the interior of the car caused as a direct result of airbag deployment.
Loss or damage to the car whilst being driven by any person other than those specified within the Confirmation of Cover
document.
so not much use for any sort of incident that might ACTUALLY occur then.
If anybody finds an insurer that wants to cover UK drivers at the Ring, please let me know. I run http://www.nurburgring.org.uk and will be happy to publicise it there. I'm sure there will be lots of takers.
Renewed my insurance today and it appears a lot of insurers are now specificly highlighting that Nurburgring TF days are not covered at all.
I'm covered for trackdays there but not TF.
Sounds like the whole industry is doing it.
THe broker did stumble a bit when he said that It's a toll road that goes no-where and I said well so is the M25 but they'll cover me there....
TF days are done for me until I can find an insurer, even then I suspect it will be a lot more than Ii want to pay.
I'm covered for trackdays there but not TF.
Sounds like the whole industry is doing it.
THe broker did stumble a bit when he said that It's a toll road that goes no-where and I said well so is the M25 but they'll cover me there....
TF days are done for me until I can find an insurer, even then I suspect it will be a lot more than Ii want to pay.
ALY77 said:
To save you four or five hours of your life the crux of the matter is this;
Touristfahren - You aren't insured & you can't get insurance.
If you crash, the owners of the ring and anyone you injure can pursue your insurers who will have to pay under european law. But since they say they wont cover you there (whether its clear or not on your policy documents) then they will in turn come after you for the money they pay out.
If its a barrier belonging the track you bend then you're fixing the barrier and your car.
If you drop fluid and eight German bank officials on 100k euros a year, with families to support slide on your oil say, in to barriers from their R1's and all end up cripples, then you are paying for eight bikes, a barrier, eight medivac airlifts and the 24 hour care for eight of them for the rest of their lives.
Ok turn this on it's head. Your car is worth £2k, you earn £13k a year and live in a rented house or have a 95% mortgage. The german bank officials come after you for £5 mill but I doubt they will get anything north of fTouristfahren - You aren't insured & you can't get insurance.
If you crash, the owners of the ring and anyone you injure can pursue your insurers who will have to pay under european law. But since they say they wont cover you there (whether its clear or not on your policy documents) then they will in turn come after you for the money they pay out.
If its a barrier belonging the track you bend then you're fixing the barrier and your car.
If you drop fluid and eight German bank officials on 100k euros a year, with families to support slide on your oil say, in to barriers from their R1's and all end up cripples, then you are paying for eight bikes, a barrier, eight medivac airlifts and the 24 hour care for eight of them for the rest of their lives.
k all. Are you really gonna give 2 fks ?You can't pay what you ain't got can you so I guess the poorer you are better equipped you are to handle a claim - or am I talking b
ks 
Edited by M5 Russ on Tuesday 14th June 16:21
M5 Russ said:
Ok turn this on it's head. Your car is worth £2k, you earn £13k a year and live in a rented house or have a 95% mortgage. The german bank officials come after you for £5 mill but I doubt they will get anything north of fk all. Are you really gonna give 2 fks ?
You can't pay what you ain't got can you so I guess the poorer you are better equipped you are to handle a claim - or am I talking bks
The blot on your credit history will take a while to clear.k all. Are you really gonna give 2 fks ?You can't pay what you ain't got can you so I guess the poorer you are better equipped you are to handle a claim - or am I talking b
ks Edited by M5 Russ on Tuesday 14th June 16:21
M5 Russ said:
The german bank officials come after you for £5 mill but I doubt they will get anything north of fk all. Are you really gonna give 2 fks ?
You can't pay what you ain't got can you so I guess the poorer you are better equipped you are to handle a claim - or am I talking bks
that's not how it works. your insurance company pays them. so the bankers are happy. your insurance company then comes after you for the money. or, the insurance company takes an offer to settle. or the insurance company takes a hit.k all. Are you really gonna give 2 fks ?You can't pay what you ain't got can you so I guess the poorer you are better equipped you are to handle a claim - or am I talking b
ks 
this had made for interesting reading, as I'm planning on doing a 'ring run, and Euro tour, coming back via Switzerland, Italy and France, with a friend next summer. looks like we might just save up a lot of extra cash and hire cars for a day at the 'Ring to be on the safe side... can't imagine my friend liking the thought of being uninsured for the day on his Golf GTD he picks up a week today. plus, I like the look of the Exige that RSR have...
Josh
Josh
Someone else posted a link to the Admiral Policy, page 20, http://www.admiral.com/policyDocs/ADM.pdf
The German AA (www.adac.de) offer lap by lap cover at their little shop in the big tourist hall. Mind you, their English isn't brilliant so it's difficult to arrange (!).
There are insurers out there that will cover Ring trips (googling them doesn't take long), although the cover is prohibitive.
I think some folks might be over-egging the pudding a little in terms of the consequences of an incident. Fluid spills, for example, are almost impossible to attribute to single vehicles in law, so linking a fluid spill from your vehicle to a bike pile-up is close to impossible.
Don't drive like a buffoon, check your mirrors and avoid it when it's raining - it'll all be fine.
There are insurers out there that will cover Ring trips (googling them doesn't take long), although the cover is prohibitive.
I think some folks might be over-egging the pudding a little in terms of the consequences of an incident. Fluid spills, for example, are almost impossible to attribute to single vehicles in law, so linking a fluid spill from your vehicle to a bike pile-up is close to impossible.
Don't drive like a buffoon, check your mirrors and avoid it when it's raining - it'll all be fine.
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