Women uncomfortable with transgender employee in toilet

[320d is all you need]

Iwantafusca said:

A earlier tweet from the complainant….. Christmasphobic too.

All these people are hypocrites lol

Jesus christ. Hypocritical in the highest order.

[anonymous-user]

320d is all you need said:

Worldboss

This is the type of nonsense I mean

Get a fking grip
https://www.ladbible.com/news/latest-train-company...

I hope you can understand this type of mentality from a minority of trans and non binary people is not warming me to the cause.


And part of the enabling - rather than telling the complainer to fk off, they issue an "immediate apology" and saying the "train manager should not have used language like this".

If that was me I'd be saying sorry you feel that way inclined here's a refund for your ticket and please don't use our trains again if you want to be so petty.

I think its ridiculous and fortunately so does the majority of posters with the most liked comments all saying how stupid this is.

I can only imagine the kerfuffle when the found the men and ladies toilet onboard!

Edited by 320d is all you need on Friday 14th May 23:24

Edited by 320d is all you need on Friday 14th May 23:26

I glanced through this article before work and now that I've sat down for lunch to read it properly it curiously has been taken down.

But...yeah... As a non binary person, I personally think the complainant as described in that article is silly. I'd personally have a chuckle about "this announcement not being relevant to me" in my head, but to make an actual complaint over it?

Stuff like that in my honest opinion does more to hurt non binary inclusion within society than help it.

But that's just me .

[p2c]

WorldBoss said:

320d is all you need said:

Worldboss

This is the type of nonsense I mean

Get a fking grip
https://www.ladbible.com/news/latest-train-company...

I hope you can understand this type of mentality from a minority of trans and non binary people is not warming me to the cause.


And part of the enabling - rather than telling the complainer to fk off, they issue an "immediate apology" and saying the "train manager should not have used language like this".

If that was me I'd be saying sorry you feel that way inclined here's a refund for your ticket and please don't use our trains again if you want to be so petty.

I think its ridiculous and fortunately so does the majority of posters with the most liked comments all saying how stupid this is.

I can only imagine the kerfuffle when the found the men and ladies toilet onboard!

Edited by 320d is all you need on Friday 14th May 23:24

Edited by 320d is all you need on Friday 14th May 23:26

I glanced through this article before work and now that I've sat down for lunch to read it properly it curiously has been taken down.

But...yeah... As a non binary person, I personally think the complainant as described in that article is silly. I'd personally have a chuckle about "this announcement not being relevant to me" in my head, but to make an actual complaint over it?

Stuff like that in my honest opinion does more to hurt non binary inclusion within society than help it.

But that's just me .

Was it really a complaint. It was a tweet at the customer service twitter account not a formal complaint letter invoking the complaints process. People tweet st at companies all the time and it seems to me that the announcement was against policy anyway, Not using gendered greeting has been the norm for a long time now and for the most part no one noticed apart from the occasional national outrage when someone of influence gets told about it The only difference with this persons tweet as opposed to all the other multitudes of st posts on twitter was the likes of Julia Hartley-Brewer and the anti woke getting outraged about it and starting a national crisis.

I notice JHB despite being a devout anti masker didn't instigate a pile onto the person today complaining about a carriage full of mask less people which had far more interaction with LNER including the customer being told LNER couldn't do anything about them and the train guard being as upset as the complainer and the simple solution which would seem obvious to anyone was for the uncomfortable passenger to move carriages after a half a dozen tweets and train guard making contact, Guess there was something about Laurence that upset JHB more.

Ive seen first hand how this stuff blows up when a select few of the actually professionally outraged with media access get upset and the twitter user with a fairly insignificant follower count has zero control over it.

[320d is all you need]

I read it as a complaint.

It was a complaint

I don't have Twitter so can't see the responses from people but I suspect they all called him out for being a wally?

About time!

[sutoka]

A women's organisation a friend works for still has a sign in front of the top dogs parking space that says 'chairman'. It has been there for 50 years, they have in those years never had a male chairman and never will but the sign has stayed.

Then a few months ago this person joined and decided their first crusade would be to demand the sign be changed to chairperson. Apparently the individual thought it was a brilliant idea and like other organisations they thought this club would pander to them but the other members told them politely to Foxtrot Oscar.

[romeogolf]

320d is all you need said:

Fair enough, I'm sure there are many opinions, mine is only mine

I'm not against it as such, but it's where do you draw the line?


You are a man, born as one.
You have a weird fixation with DOGS.
You want to be called a Good boy and have your head patted


Do you suggest that we then enable a transition to being medically adapted to be a dog, given a red rocket for a cock and big floppy ears? Because that's what they want and for some people therapy and drugs to correct that behaviour does not help?

I (perhaps wrongly, but it's my opinion) view wanting to be trans and being trans as suffering from a mental illness. Even if being trans is a mental illness, the thought process is the same; This person is unwell and this leads them to want to end their life. How do we save their life in the most effective way? If non-physical treatment such as anti-depressant drugs and counselling is ineffective, but physical treatment works such as hormone therapy and surgical transition, why would we not choose the effective route?

If you're a schizophrenic and you have 6 identities we do not just allow schizo's to have 6 real Identities, as much as possible within the realms of what is fair, legal and safe, we try to prevent these episodes with therapy and drugs. Because these therapies have been proven effective and minimising harm to the self and others. By providing antipsychotic treatment, the condition becomes manageable and the individual suffering from schizophrenia is able to lead a productive/happy life.

If you are an alcoholic who is a lovely person when drunk but miserable when sober you do not allow them to keep drinking (if posisble) - again a combination of treatment and therapy is taken. Because the personality shift is not the problem being fixed, it is the harm being done to the individual's health by allowing them to continue drinking. The drinking is the symptom of the illness being treated - addiction - not the illness itself.

If you're depressed you are not encouraged to be depressed, you are given drugs and therapy. Correct, but that only follows if the depression is the condition rather than the symptom of another condition. There is also a parallel here with trans people in so far as the treatment is the same; drugs and therapy. Only the drugs are hormone replacement and the therapy is often counselling and advice on living as the other gender. Fewer than 15% of trans people actually have any genital surgery - The most common surgeries are for trans men to have their breasts removed or to have hysterectomies. Trans women are much less likely to have surgery.

As I said I'm all for allowing people to live a meaningful and happy life but at some point you have to stop "enabling" and draw a line. I don't feel a need to draw a line as the example you've given hasn't happened. The line is grey and moveable, not a firm barrier. The line is influenced by evidence and experience, not by imagination. The line is the barrier between effective treatment and loss of life.

On a separate note, until 1973 homosexuality was listed in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - a standard set of guidelines used to treat mental health) as a mental illness to be treated. It is now largely accepted that this doesn't require treatment and we should just allow gay people to be gay. Out of interest, how do you explain the difference in your mind between someone "feeling" gay and someone "feeling" like another gender? What makes one acceptable and not a health issue, but the other requiring therapy to avoid? More specifically, to turn your question back at you, where do you draw the line?

[romeogolf]

Iwantafusca said:

romeogolf said:

I used to have a similar view, but when I drilled down on it in my mind, I realised I was looking at it the wrong way. Forgive my over simplification here, but this was my thought process;

The disorder is feeling like you are in the wrong body [over simplified, but in short]
The symptom is depression, anxiety, and a lack of good mood. More often than not, this leads to suicide.
The goal is to prevent death and to have people living happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.

The question then is the treatment and which treatment is effective.

Counselling and therapy have not been proven effective at reducing the symptoms, but supported transitioning has.

So why should that treatment not be considered correct? If our goal is just to make people happy then it's working.

I might not understand it. It might make me feel a bit "icky". But those are problems with me, not with the treatment. So to my mind it doesn't matter what the treatment is, as long as it's working.

What’s your definition of transitioning?

I don't think answering any of your questions in good faith is a productive use of anyone's time. You've proven on this thread that you're not willing to listen or speak respectfully about trans people and I don't believe any amount of evidence will change your views. Engaging with you is not a debate or discussion, but an outright argument.

[320d is all you need]

romeogolf said:

On a separate note, until 1973 homosexuality was listed in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders - a standard set of guidelines used to treat mental health) as a mental illness to be treated. It is now largely accepted that this doesn't require treatment and we should just allow gay people to be gay. Out of interest, how do you explain the difference in your mind between someone "feeling" gay and someone "feeling" like another gender? What makes one acceptable and not a health issue, but the other requiring therapy to avoid? More specifically, to turn your question back at you, where do you draw the line?

If you fundamentally do not want to be a man when you are born as a man that is a serious mental condition. You don't normally wake up one day and just "want to be the opposite sex", I'm sure there are underlying causes, underlying mental conditions, previous trauma?

Being attracted to a man or woman if you are a man or woman isn't inherently biologically wrong, it's , as I clearly said, a matter of personal taste, do you like the colour red or blue?

There have been lots of study linking abuse and trauma in young children and adolescents https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/...


I am aware I am being rather black and white here and yes there are shades of gray
Personally, as I said, I don't care if someone wants to be trans, that's their right, if they want to change outward gender, then that's their choice.
If the only way to "treat" the condition of Gender dysphoria is to enable the person in their mindset by transitioning then fine. Go ahead. Makes no difference to me

But I draw the line at some mouthy twitter knob head telling me that I can't say ladies or gentlemen or being called a transphobe for saying that if you were born as a man, and you have changed your appearance and lifestyle to that of a woman, that you are still a man. You are still a man, no matter how much of your knob they fold up into your body. Take a DNA sample and you have XY

Are those people who identify as dogs really dogs? Do trans people think that Dave who likes to dress up and live as a dog no no longer human but is actually a Border collie? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/human-pup-wh...

I would strongly suspect not.

I can colour a Zebra orange, it's still not a Tiger.

Edited by 320d is all you need on Monday 17th May 10:14

[anonymous-user]

romeogolf said:

Iwantafusca said:

romeogolf said:

I used to have a similar view, but when I drilled down on it in my mind, I realised I was looking at it the wrong way. Forgive my over simplification here, but this was my thought process;

The disorder is feeling like you are in the wrong body [over simplified, but in short]
The symptom is depression, anxiety, and a lack of good mood. More often than not, this leads to suicide.
The goal is to prevent death and to have people living happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.

The question then is the treatment and which treatment is effective.

Counselling and therapy have not been proven effective at reducing the symptoms, but supported transitioning has.

So why should that treatment not be considered correct? If our goal is just to make people happy then it's working.

I might not understand it. It might make me feel a bit "icky". But those are problems with me, not with the treatment. So to my mind it doesn't matter what the treatment is, as long as it's working.

What’s your definition of transitioning?

I don't think answering any of your questions in good faith is a productive use of anyone's time. You've proven on this thread that you're not willing to listen or speak respectfully about trans people and I don't believe any amount of evidence will change your views. Engaging with you is not a debate or discussion, but an outright argument.

Evidence? You allege people will kill themselves if they aren’t allowed to transition? But won’t say what transition is ?

[p2c]

Iwantafusca said:

romeogolf said:

Iwantafusca said:

romeogolf said:

I used to have a similar view, but when I drilled down on it in my mind, I realised I was looking at it the wrong way. Forgive my over simplification here, but this was my thought process;

The disorder is feeling like you are in the wrong body [over simplified, but in short]
The symptom is depression, anxiety, and a lack of good mood. More often than not, this leads to suicide.
The goal is to prevent death and to have people living happy, productive, and fulfilling lives.

The question then is the treatment and which treatment is effective.

Counselling and therapy have not been proven effective at reducing the symptoms, but supported transitioning has.

So why should that treatment not be considered correct? If our goal is just to make people happy then it's working.

I might not understand it. It might make me feel a bit "icky". But those are problems with me, not with the treatment. So to my mind it doesn't matter what the treatment is, as long as it's working.

What’s your definition of transitioning?

I don't think answering any of your questions in good faith is a productive use of anyone's time. You've proven on this thread that you're not willing to listen or speak respectfully about trans people and I don't believe any amount of evidence will change your views. Engaging with you is not a debate or discussion, but an outright argument.

Evidence? You allege people will kill themselves if they aren’t allowed to transition? But won’t say what transition is ?

Well transition can mean many different things to different trans and non binary people, so no single answer is possible especially if its only to satisfy your cisgender heterosexual 2.4 children view of the world and bad faith gotcha question

[romeogolf]

320d is all you need said:

If you fundamentally do not want to be a man when you are born as a man that is a serious mental condition. You don't normally wake up one day and just "want to be the opposite sex", I'm sure there are underlying causes, underlying mental conditions, previous trauma?

Being attracted to a man or woman if you are a man or woman isn't inherently biologically wrong, it's , as I clearly said, a matter of personal taste, do you like the colour red or blue?

There have been lots of study linking abuse and trauma in young children and adolescents https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/...


I am aware I am being rather black and white here and yes there are shades of gray
Personally, as I said, I don't care if someone wants to be trans, that's their right, if they want to change outward gender, then that's their choice.
If the only way to "treat" the condition of Gender dysphoria is to enable the person in their mindset by transitioning then fine. Go ahead. Makes no difference to me

But I draw the line at some mouthy twitter knob head telling me that I can't say ladies or gentlemen or being called a transphobe for saying that if you were born as a man, and you have changed your appearance and lifestyle to that of a woman, that you are still a man. You are still a man, no matter how much of your knob they fold up into your body. Take a DNA sample and you have XY

Are those people who identify as dogs really dogs? Do trans people think that Dave who likes to dress up and live as a dog no no longer human but is actually a Border collie? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/human-pup-wh...

I would strongly suspect not.

I can colour a Zebra orange, it's still not a Tiger.

Edited by 320d is all you need on Monday 17th May 10:14

You're mistaking sex and gender as being the same thing. Sex is the biology; Gender is the society. The XY/XX argument also falls apart quickly when intersex people are considered and there are also many intersex people who never even know that their gender doesn't match their chromosomes.

Regarding "ladies & gentlemen", it's not about saying "you can't say this" and more about simply asking people to be more inclusive. No one is telling you what you can and can't say, they're simply pointing out where something you might have previously said could be considered either offensive or uncomfortable. If you're happy to continue making people feel uncomfortable then that's your prerogative.

Regarding the article, Kaz even says it's a persona. I don't know anywhere near enough about the Pup community to be able to draw any strong parallels, though.

[BobsPigeon]

romeogolf said:

No one is telling you what you can and can't say, they're simply pointing out where something you might have previously said could be considered either offensive or uncomfortable. If you're happy to continue making people feel uncomfortable then that's your prerogative.

I don't think that is actually the case though is it, the legal and social walls are closing in on those people who chose to say uncomfortable and offensive things in order to find uncomfortable and offensive truths.

The free speech element of this debate is actually the crux of the matter. Not what clothes people chose to wear.

[320d is all you need]

romeogolf said:

You're mistaking sex and gender as being the same thing. Sex is the biology; Gender is the society. The XY/XX argument also falls apart quickly when intersex people are considered and there are also many intersex people who never even know that their gender doesn't match their chromosomes.

Regarding "ladies & gentlemen", it's not about saying "you can't say this" and more about simply asking people to be more inclusive. No one is telling you what you can and can't say, they're simply pointing out where something you might have previously said could be considered either offensive or uncomfortable. If you're happy to continue making people feel uncomfortable then that's your prerogative.

Regarding the article, Kaz even says it's a persona. I don't know anywhere near enough about the Pup community to be able to draw any strong parallels, though.

Intersex people , IE a man with XY who happens to have a womb or a woman with XX who happens to have a pair of balls are genetic errors

Gender is a society construct written over the last 5 years mainly by the trans community, I remember back in the early 90s etc Gender was male and female, it was used universally with "sex"

It is very much about "you can't say this"
They are complaining they weren't "included" , even though they are a man or a woman
So you say men, women and transwomen and men? Or men women transwomen and men and other fluid?

As I said before - the 0.1% of society should not be trying to dictate language used by the 99.9%, that is stupid, if they choose to live outside the realms or normality IE being referred to as a man or a woman that's their problem if they want to be called a triceratopis cis neutral ze donkey or whatever.

It is not offensive to say that if you are born a man you are always a man in my opinion likewise it is not offensive for you to say you are a woman, when you are in fact a man

Your / Trans rights does not and should not trump everyone else and it certainly seems it's going that way - if "making people feel uncomfortable" is not blindly going along with their personal views then sure

[romeogolf]

320d is all you need said:

As I said before - the 0.1% of society should not be trying to dictate language used by the 99.9%, that is stupid, if they choose to live outside the realms or normality IE being referred to as a man or a woman that's their problem if they want to be called a triceratopis cis neutral ze donkey or whatever.

All this says is that you're talking about an issue you don't actually understand.

[lyonspride]

romeogolf said:

320d is all you need said:

As I said before - the 0.1% of society should not be trying to dictate language used by the 99.9%, that is stupid, if they choose to live outside the realms or normality IE being referred to as a man or a woman that's their problem if they want to be called a triceratopis cis neutral ze donkey or whatever.

All this says is that you're talking about an issue you don't actually understand.

The issue, the real issue, is the political left using minority groups to forward their own agenda. Whether it's gender or race or religion, most of the activists are the same young white middle class socialists.

I know a plentiful number of "trans" people, and NONE of them are these crazy activists who want the state to dictate what language we have to use. Most of them just want to live a hassle free life, they'll even use disabled toilets to avoid getting into confrontations (because we don't yet have gender specific toilets for those with disabilities).

The political left are making us hate certain select minorities, and the more we do, the more they win, and the harder our every day lives become.

[irocfan]

lyonspride said:

The political left are making us hate certain select minorities, and the more we do, the more they win, and the harder our every day lives become.

amen to that!

[sutoka]

irocfan said:

lyonspride said:

The political left are making us hate certain select minorities, and the more we do, the more they win, and the harder our every day lives become.

amen to that!

Most of these leftie organisations employ people whose job is to find offence. The only way they know is to bully and harass until it gets changed. Most will pander for fear of causing further offence and then the more they give in the more they push for more.

[lyonspride]

sutoka said:

irocfan said:

lyonspride said:

The political left are making us hate certain select minorities, and the more we do, the more they win, and the harder our every day lives become.

amen to that!

Most of these leftie organisations employ people whose job is to find offence. The only way they know is to bully and harass until it gets changed. Most will pander for fear of causing further offence and then the more they give in the more they push for more.

Well just look at this, 30 pages of mostly hate for the trans community, and most people have no logical reasoning for it, it just makes these claims appear true and gives the political left an even bigger soap box to stand on. They just keep setting us all up to hate each other, because division gives them power.

[gregs656]

lyonspride said:

Well just look at this, 30 pages of mostly hate for the trans community, and most people have no logical reasoning for it, it just makes these claims appear true and gives the political left an even bigger soap box to stand on. They just keep setting us all up to hate each other, because division gives them power.

I’m struggling to map this position on to reality - what power has the political left got in Britain? This forum is full of people who identify as being on the political right - and this topic blows up on this forum every now and again, often because of a story in a right leaning news outlet like the daily mail, because of a report or comment from a sports governing body or because of something in the US where it is mostly the Christian Right wing who are obsessed with the issue.

If anything I think it is a failing of the left that they have not been able to generate a more positive narrative or even have a position at all.

[Munter]

gregs656 said:

I think it is a failing of the left that they have not been able to generate a more positive narrative or even have a position at all.

It's amazing how many topics that statement covers at the moment!