Gender Pronouns at Work

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

Lol

Oh go on then, one more time...i'll translate into woke for you.

My pronouns that I am choosing are:

He = Godship
His = Godships
Him = Godliness

"Dagnir thinks it's funny when misguided fools attempt to be condescending. Godships patience with these posters is impressive. They are wasting their time trying to score points over Godliness.


So going back now...

In your world I am allowed to choose these pronouns because they are who I represent.

Do you think this is reasonable, logical, fair and sustainable for society?

Or should we just use standard rules to dictate language as this doesn't discriminate against anyone?

Your argument is based on the idea that people are creating new words on a whim to use them as pronouns. No one is doing this or asking you to do it. Your argument is whataboutery at its finest.

The vast, vast, majority of genderqueer people use he, she, or they. All words we are familiar with. A very small section of people prefer Zie and Sie as neutral alternatives but in years in queer spaces I've not met a single one, so this really is a very VERY small number of people.

Is using godship as a pronoun reasonable? No, because it is not a pronoun.
Is using godship as a pronoun logical? No, because being godly isn't considered a human characteristic.
Is using godship as a pronoun fair? Yes, because it doesn't do anyone harm by you asking for it.
Is using godship as a pronoun sustainable? I don't know what you mean by this.
Should we use standard rules to dictate language as it doesn't discriminate against anyone? Yes. That's why people ask for you to respect their pronouns.

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

Lol

Oh go on then, one more time...i'll translate into woke for you.

My pronouns that I am choosing are:

He = Godship
His = Godships
Him = Godliness

"Dagnir thinks it's funny when misguided fools attempt to be condescending. Godships patience with these posters is impressive. They are wasting their time trying to score points over Godliness.


So going back now...

In your world I am allowed to choose these pronouns because they are who I represent.

Do you think this is reasonable, logical, fair and sustainable for society?

Or should we just use standard rules to dictate language as this doesn't discriminate against anyone?

Your argument is based on the idea that people are creating new words on a whim to use them as pronouns. No one is doing this or asking you to do it. Your argument is whataboutery at its finest.

The vast, vast, majority of genderqueer people use he, she, or they. All words we are familiar with. A very small section of people prefer Zie and Sie as neutral alternatives but in years in queer spaces I've not met a single one, so this really is a very VERY small number of people.

Is using godship as a pronoun reasonable? No, because it is not a pronoun.
Is using godship as a pronoun logical? No, because being godly isn't considered a human characteristic.
Is using godship as a pronoun fair? Yes, because it doesn't do anyone harm by you asking for it.
Is using godship as a pronoun sustainable? I don't know what you mean by this.
Should we use standard rules to dictate language as it doesn't discriminate against anyone? Yes. That's why people ask for you to respect their pronouns.

You're correct. My argument is indeed based on the fact that people can make up words with no factual basis, as their pronouns. So is yours.

If I say these are my pronouns, they represent me. Who are you to tell me that they don't? If someone in a unicorn suit at Pride, came up to you and said my pronouns are Xi/Xie/Xim....I suspect you would accept it as they are on 'your side'. Why not with mine?

The rules must be fair and applied fully to everyone or to no one at all.

To counter your responses:

It's a pronoun if I say it is.
It isn't an adjective, it's my chosen pronoun.
Consistent....OK
Sustainable for society. Take this to a conclusion in 5 years and there are now over 5000 recognised pronouns...it wouldn't work. You cant have endless lists, you need 1 system, applied to everyone, that deals with every possibility through the use of logic.
You're last answer is a contradiction.

[romeogolf]

Dagnir said:

You're correct. My argument is indeed based on the fact that people can make up words with no factual basis, as their pronouns. So is yours.

If I say these are my pronouns, they represent me. Who are you to tell me that they don't? If someone in a unicorn suit at Pride, came up to you and said my pronouns are Xi/Xie/Xim....I suspect you would accept it as they are on 'your side'. Why not with mine?

The rules must be fair and applied fully to everyone or to no one at all.

To counter your responses:

It's a pronoun if I say it is.
It isn't an adjective, it's my chosen pronoun.
Consistent....OK
Sustainable for society. Take this to a conclusion in 5 years and there are now over 5000 recognised pronouns...it wouldn't work. You cant have endless lists, you need 1 system, applied to everyone, that deals with every possibility through the use of logic.
You're last answer is a contradiction.

This will be my last reply because I have bigger battles in my life than people who seem to take some perverse pride in being particularly difficult.

Your argument is based on people using words which are not pronouns as their pronouns; Godship, sir, lord etc. This is not what is being discussed as it simply doesn't happen. There are, as I mentioned, three commonly used pronouns (He, She, They) and two less commonly used but still accepted gender-neutral pronouns, Zie and Hir, which often have different spellings such as Sie or Xie etc. These are rare, in all academic literature about these they are noted as being rare or less commonly used. They are not words you are likely to ever need to use outside of this type of discussion.

The difference between accepting someone telling me their pronouns are Xie/Xim and you telling me that yours are Godship/Godships are that those words have another meaning. They are already accepted terms for characteristics which are not human. Someone with feminine characteristics, or feminine gender identity, would sensibly use She/Her, and ditto with masculine identities he/him. Others sit somewhere between the two and ask for they/them.

Some people have ambiguous looks and may commonly be misgendered by mistake, so they are likely to want to share their pronouns so people know which they prefer. To pursue this point with arbitrary additional words which you want to use is whataboutery and detracts from the issue that genderqueer people face every single day with pointed and deliberate misgendering. Your further arguments are evidence of this as you try and describe a world where any word can be a pronoun, but this isn't something being proposed or discussed.

I want to humanise this slightly before I leave the thread, because while to you and many others this is just "people being difficult" and an argument about semantics, this is something which affects others day to day. A friend of mine was assigned male at birth and I first met them when they presented as male. Today, to you or I, they present as very feminine - They are often referred to as a woman, they have a traditionally female name, a rather butch male spouse... but they consider themselves non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns. They are a friend and someone I care about, but even I mess up sometimes and call them "she" by mistake. That's natural. As I say, they present as feminine and when I'm not thinking that's what I use. Neutral pronouns for people aren't something we come across often and mistakes happen. But it's also forgivable because it's an accident, and to my knowledge they have never been offended by my mistake, just as they wouldn't be by anyone else's. The issue arises when people are deliberately difficult, refusing to use "they", or even worse going back and using "he" to make a point. That is offensive, it's hurtful, and when it's done it's just as rude as purposefully using the wrong name.

It's not a joke, it's done with malice, and threads like this remind me how easy I have it being cisgendered and "generically" masculine in my identity. I am lucky enough to be able to close this page and ignore the issue when I leave the house. They can't. J faces this every day of their life.

[vaud]

romeogolf said:

This will be my last reply because I have bigger battles in my life than people who seem to take some perverse pride in being particularly difficult.

Your argument is based on people using words which are not pronouns as their pronouns; Godship, sir, lord etc. This is not what is being discussed as it simply doesn't happen. There are, as I mentioned, three commonly used pronouns (He, She, They) and two less commonly used but still accepted gender-neutral pronouns, Zie and Hir, which often have different spellings such as Sie or Xie etc. These are rare, in all academic literature about these they are noted as being rare or less commonly used. They are not words you are likely to ever need to use outside of this type of discussion.

The difference between accepting someone telling me their pronouns are Xie/Xim and you telling me that yours are Godship/Godships are that those words have another meaning. They are already accepted terms for characteristics which are not human. Someone with feminine characteristics, or feminine gender identity, would sensibly use She/Her, and ditto with masculine identities he/him. Others sit somewhere between the two and ask for they/them.

Some people have ambiguous looks and may commonly be misgendered by mistake, so they are likely to want to share their pronouns so people know which they prefer. To pursue this point with arbitrary additional words which you want to use is whataboutery and detracts from the issue that genderqueer people face every single day with pointed and deliberate misgendering. Your further arguments are evidence of this as you try and describe a world where any word can be a pronoun, but this isn't something being proposed or discussed.

I want to humanise this slightly before I leave the thread, because while to you and many others this is just "people being difficult" and an argument about semantics, this is something which affects others day to day. A friend of mine was assigned male at birth and I first met them when they presented as male. Today, to you or I, they present as very feminine - They are often referred to as a woman, they have a traditionally female name, a rather butch male spouse... but they consider themselves non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns. They are a friend and someone I care about, but even I mess up sometimes and call them "she" by mistake. That's natural. As I say, they present as feminine and when I'm not thinking that's what I use. Neutral pronouns for people aren't something we come across often and mistakes happen. But it's also forgivable because it's an accident, and to my knowledge they have never been offended by my mistake, just as they wouldn't be by anyone else's. The issue arises when people are deliberately difficult, refusing to use "they", or even worse going back and using "he" to make a point. That is offensive, it's hurtful, and when it's done it's just as rude as purposefully using the wrong name.

It's not a joke, it's done with malice, and threads like this remind me how easy I have it being cisgendered and "generically" masculine in my identity. I am lucky enough to be able to close this page and ignore the issue when I leave the house. They can't. J faces this every day of their life.

^^^ great post, 100% agree. I tried to write up a similar experience but you have captured it very well.

[Benrad]

vaud said:

romeogolf said:

This will be my last reply because I have bigger battles in my life than people who seem to take some perverse pride in being particularly difficult.

Your argument is based on people using words which are not pronouns as their pronouns; Godship, sir, lord etc. This is not what is being discussed as it simply doesn't happen. There are, as I mentioned, three commonly used pronouns (He, She, They) and two less commonly used but still accepted gender-neutral pronouns, Zie and Hir, which often have different spellings such as Sie or Xie etc. These are rare, in all academic literature about these they are noted as being rare or less commonly used. They are not words you are likely to ever need to use outside of this type of discussion.

The difference between accepting someone telling me their pronouns are Xie/Xim and you telling me that yours are Godship/Godships are that those words have another meaning. They are already accepted terms for characteristics which are not human. Someone with feminine characteristics, or feminine gender identity, would sensibly use She/Her, and ditto with masculine identities he/him. Others sit somewhere between the two and ask for they/them.

Some people have ambiguous looks and may commonly be misgendered by mistake, so they are likely to want to share their pronouns so people know which they prefer. To pursue this point with arbitrary additional words which you want to use is whataboutery and detracts from the issue that genderqueer people face every single day with pointed and deliberate misgendering. Your further arguments are evidence of this as you try and describe a world where any word can be a pronoun, but this isn't something being proposed or discussed.

I want to humanise this slightly before I leave the thread, because while to you and many others this is just "people being difficult" and an argument about semantics, this is something which affects others day to day. A friend of mine was assigned male at birth and I first met them when they presented as male. Today, to you or I, they present as very feminine - They are often referred to as a woman, they have a traditionally female name, a rather butch male spouse... but they consider themselves non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns. They are a friend and someone I care about, but even I mess up sometimes and call them "she" by mistake. That's natural. As I say, they present as feminine and when I'm not thinking that's what I use. Neutral pronouns for people aren't something we come across often and mistakes happen. But it's also forgivable because it's an accident, and to my knowledge they have never been offended by my mistake, just as they wouldn't be by anyone else's. The issue arises when people are deliberately difficult, refusing to use "they", or even worse going back and using "he" to make a point. That is offensive, it's hurtful, and when it's done it's just as rude as purposefully using the wrong name.

It's not a joke, it's done with malice, and threads like this remind me how easy I have it being cisgendered and "generically" masculine in my identity. I am lucky enough to be able to close this page and ignore the issue when I leave the house. They can't. J faces this every day of their life.

^^^ great post, 100% agree. I tried to write up a similar experience but you have captured it very well.

Agreed, I wish I could write as well as that, really humanised the discussion. I hope your comments have the appropriate impact on people being "offended" about people being offended for the sake of arguing

[mcg_]

CustardOnChips said:

Come work in construction.
Everyone is referred to a useless . No need to remember names or gender pronouns.

Ha, that' one reason why I do like this industry, very little BS (in the sector I'm in anyway)

[whitesocks]

mcg_ said:

Ha, that' one reason why I do like this industry, very little BS (in the sector I'm in anyway)

I work in Retail, where you have to be extremely careful what you call people (Or refer to them as)

[wastedyouth86]

whitesocks said:

I work in Retail, where you have to be extremely careful what you call people (Or refer to them as)

I remember when i had my first job in a call centre and i got a very stern telling off from a customer because i said Miss instead of Ms. God knows what it is like with Gender pronouns, i also suspect the one's that use the quirky ones will be also the first ones to complain and seek dismissal.

[witko999]

romeogolf said:

Dagnir said:

You're correct. My argument is indeed based on the fact that people can make up words with no factual basis, as their pronouns. So is yours.

If I say these are my pronouns, they represent me. Who are you to tell me that they don't? If someone in a unicorn suit at Pride, came up to you and said my pronouns are Xi/Xie/Xim....I suspect you would accept it as they are on 'your side'. Why not with mine?

The rules must be fair and applied fully to everyone or to no one at all.

To counter your responses:

It's a pronoun if I say it is.
It isn't an adjective, it's my chosen pronoun.
Consistent....OK
Sustainable for society. Take this to a conclusion in 5 years and there are now over 5000 recognised pronouns...it wouldn't work. You cant have endless lists, you need 1 system, applied to everyone, that deals with every possibility through the use of logic.
You're last answer is a contradiction.

This will be my last reply because I have bigger battles in my life than people who seem to take some perverse pride in being particularly difficult.

Your argument is based on people using words which are not pronouns as their pronouns; Godship, sir, lord etc. This is not what is being discussed as it simply doesn't happen. There are, as I mentioned, three commonly used pronouns (He, She, They) and two less commonly used but still accepted gender-neutral pronouns, Zie and Hir, which often have different spellings such as Sie or Xie etc. These are rare, in all academic literature about these they are noted as being rare or less commonly used. They are not words you are likely to ever need to use outside of this type of discussion.

The difference between accepting someone telling me their pronouns are Xie/Xim and you telling me that yours are Godship/Godships are that those words have another meaning. They are already accepted terms for characteristics which are not human. Someone with feminine characteristics, or feminine gender identity, would sensibly use She/Her, and ditto with masculine identities he/him. Others sit somewhere between the two and ask for they/them.

Some people have ambiguous looks and may commonly be misgendered by mistake, so they are likely to want to share their pronouns so people know which they prefer. To pursue this point with arbitrary additional words which you want to use is whataboutery and detracts from the issue that genderqueer people face every single day with pointed and deliberate misgendering. Your further arguments are evidence of this as you try and describe a world where any word can be a pronoun, but this isn't something being proposed or discussed.

I want to humanise this slightly before I leave the thread, because while to you and many others this is just "people being difficult" and an argument about semantics, this is something which affects others day to day. A friend of mine was assigned male at birth and I first met them when they presented as male. Today, to you or I, they present as very feminine - They are often referred to as a woman, they have a traditionally female name, a rather butch male spouse... but they consider themselves non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns. They are a friend and someone I care about, but even I mess up sometimes and call them "she" by mistake. That's natural. As I say, they present as feminine and when I'm not thinking that's what I use. Neutral pronouns for people aren't something we come across often and mistakes happen. But it's also forgivable because it's an accident, and to my knowledge they have never been offended by my mistake, just as they wouldn't be by anyone else's. The issue arises when people are deliberately difficult, refusing to use "they", or even worse going back and using "he" to make a point. That is offensive, it's hurtful, and when it's done it's just as rude as purposefully using the wrong name.

It's not a joke, it's done with malice, and threads like this remind me how easy I have it being cisgendered and "generically" masculine in my identity. I am lucky enough to be able to close this page and ignore the issue when I leave the house. They can't. J faces this every day of their life.

I think the problem arises because certain people are claiming ownership of 'their' pronouns, and others are expected to use them as they dictate. It's odd really, because a person never uses a pronoun about themselves. Only others around them use 'their' pronouns, therefore to expect to be able to control what other people say seems a bit narcissistic, like an attempt to alter perception.

I appreciate that there are idiots on both sides of the argument, but that's my take on it.

[loggo]

I am a lorry driver working in the West Midlands. About half the people I speak to on delivery call me "shag" as in "yaw orrite shag" I'm not sure if they are making a sexual reference or confusing me with a sea bird.

I'm not permitted to be offended as I am not salaried.

[Fastchas]

loggo said:

I am a lorry driver working in the West Midlands. About half the people I speak to on delivery call me "shag" as in "yaw orrite shag" I'm not sure if they are making a sexual reference or confusing me with a sea bird.

I'm not permitted to be offended as I am not salaried.

Whatssup Mush...?

[irocfan]

Fastchas said:

loggo said:

I am a lorry driver working in the West Midlands. About half the people I speak to on delivery call me "shag" as in "yaw orrite shag" I'm not sure if they are making a sexual reference or confusing me with a sea bird.

I'm not permitted to be offended as I am not salaried.

Whatssup Mush...?

Indeed duck/chuck/petal

[Dagnir]

romeogolf said:

This will be my last reply because I have bigger battles in my life than people who seem to take some perverse pride in being particularly difficult.

Your argument is based on people using words which are not pronouns as their pronouns; Godship, sir, lord etc. This is not what is being discussed as it simply doesn't happen. There are, as I mentioned, three commonly used pronouns (He, She, They) and two less commonly used but still accepted gender-neutral pronouns, Zie and Hir, which often have different spellings such as Sie or Xie etc. These are rare, in all academic literature about these they are noted as being rare or less commonly used. They are not words you are likely to ever need to use outside of this type of discussion.

The difference between accepting someone telling me their pronouns are Xie/Xim and you telling me that yours are Godship/Godships are that those words have another meaning. They are already accepted terms for characteristics which are not human. Someone with feminine characteristics, or feminine gender identity, would sensibly use She/Her, and ditto with masculine identities he/him. Others sit somewhere between the two and ask for they/them.

Some people have ambiguous looks and may commonly be misgendered by mistake, so they are likely to want to share their pronouns so people know which they prefer. To pursue this point with arbitrary additional words which you want to use is whataboutery and detracts from the issue that genderqueer people face every single day with pointed and deliberate misgendering. Your further arguments are evidence of this as you try and describe a world where any word can be a pronoun, but this isn't something being proposed or discussed.

I want to humanise this slightly before I leave the thread, because while to you and many others this is just "people being difficult" and an argument about semantics, this is something which affects others day to day. A friend of mine was assigned male at birth and I first met them when they presented as male. Today, to you or I, they present as very feminine - They are often referred to as a woman, they have a traditionally female name, a rather butch male spouse... but they consider themselves non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns. They are a friend and someone I care about, but even I mess up sometimes and call them "she" by mistake. That's natural. As I say, they present as feminine and when I'm not thinking that's what I use. Neutral pronouns for people aren't something we come across often and mistakes happen. But it's also forgivable because it's an accident, and to my knowledge they have never been offended by my mistake, just as they wouldn't be by anyone else's. The issue arises when people are deliberately difficult, refusing to use "they", or even worse going back and using "he" to make a point. That is offensive, it's hurtful, and when it's done it's just as rude as purposefully using the wrong name.

It's not a joke, it's done with malice, and threads like this remind me how easy I have it being cisgendered and "generically" masculine in my identity. I am lucky enough to be able to close this page and ignore the issue when I leave the house. They can't. J faces this every day of their life.

Not wanting to dredge anything up but as you took the time to write such a reply, I thought I should do the same.

I'll begin by saying that I believe people should be able to behave how they want and that we shouldn't pigeonhole them with gender labels. Just be who you want to be and their sex should be irrelevant.

My argument is purely about how words are being used.

Over the past few years we have seen a substantial increase in the amount of commonly recognised genders. Coinciding with this we have seen new pronouns emerge and this is obviously not a coincidence. We are told that gender is a spectrum and people are free to define themselves in an almost infinite number of ways. You can see where I'm going with the logical conclusion here and this is why I said it's not sustainable. You need a standard system that can be applied to everyone. An innate characteristic that doesn't define who you are and something that has been in use successfully for centuries, is that system.

To accept someone's identity you must accept their pronouns, whether they are made up or not. Let's be honest, if you don't, you face an inevitable negative response, regardless of who you are. This is what a lack of logic does. It ties you in knots.

I don't think I have ever said anything about just being difficult or anything similar. Please don't put words in my mouth or tar me with a brush destined for someone else. The rest of what you have written, I agree with. It reflects my own experiences with friends and colleagues, I'm grateful everyday too and anyone being spiteful and malicious to someone over this, needs to have a word with themselves.

As you say, let's leave it there. We're discussing different things, I just felt I should explain myself.