E92 M3 - Rod Bearings
Discussion
jcolley said:
Or one who actually "builds" engines instead of just assembling them from a bin of parts and understands the measurements he's taken himself to properly assemble the engine. The crank shop I use for my repairs is the same that makes the stroker cranks for nearly everyone and recommended the bearings over paying them more money to grind every journal. They do however spec larger oil clearance for every stroker crank they build since they have to grind every journal anyway.
The NA 6.0L S85 stroker over here that recorded the highest top speed for a sedan ever in the Texas Mile event was built with the same oil clearance as what BE spec'd, albeit by having the journals sized slightly under and using aftermarket rods with stock big-end bore diameter. The engine was just torn down after 15k miles and the bearings looked brand new. I can't understand the logic behind the opposition to providing that same clearance by making the bearing larger instead of the journal smaller.
What amazes me is how so many people jump to attack the guys that developed the specs for these when it's absolutely normal practice on every American made engine to offer multiple size bearings and allow the builder their choice of clearances. For some reason when that same logic is applied to BMW M engines, it's heresy and conspiracy.
And I guess I don't consider it hysteria considering I have 7 engines to rebuild at the moment all with spun rod bearings. Everyone believes what they want I guess, I just tend to go with more of what I see than what I read.
What your saying is correct and would work, just some people have an attitude of OE factory is best, when actually it's shiit!The NA 6.0L S85 stroker over here that recorded the highest top speed for a sedan ever in the Texas Mile event was built with the same oil clearance as what BE spec'd, albeit by having the journals sized slightly under and using aftermarket rods with stock big-end bore diameter. The engine was just torn down after 15k miles and the bearings looked brand new. I can't understand the logic behind the opposition to providing that same clearance by making the bearing larger instead of the journal smaller.
What amazes me is how so many people jump to attack the guys that developed the specs for these when it's absolutely normal practice on every American made engine to offer multiple size bearings and allow the builder their choice of clearances. For some reason when that same logic is applied to BMW M engines, it's heresy and conspiracy.
And I guess I don't consider it hysteria considering I have 7 engines to rebuild at the moment all with spun rod bearings. Everyone believes what they want I guess, I just tend to go with more of what I see than what I read.
Max Maxasson said:
The problem that USA owners have with engine failures does not seem to be replicated here in the UK.
There's a gent who goes by "GJS" on M5 Board who lives in the UK and had his own spin a bearing. He has since done bearing jobs on numerous cars and found the same wear. Also, stop by in Luton and have a chat with the Evolve boys, they'll tell you the same.I think the reason more failures are reported in the US is the much higher population of the cars and I'll be perfectly honest, the average American's penchant to yell to the world their problems. Didn't take me long abroad to realize why many don't like us.
I do think the S65 is less prone to catastrophic failure as early on as the S85 though. Still working out why since the mode of failure is the same.
jcolley said:
I do think the S65 is less prone to catastrophic failure as early on as the S85 though. Still working out why since the mode of failure is the same.
Indeed...of the many questions to be answered:Why are S65 engines so much more reliable than S85...they made extensive changes to the S85 engine on its evolution to the S65 but left the bearing clearance untouched.
Why are UK S65 engines far more reliable than USA S65 engines...they have identical internals.
Why did BMW never change the S65 rod bearing clearance...they had plenty of chances.
Etc etc.
Edited by Max Maxasson on Monday 25th January 17:35
Max Maxasson said:
jcolley said:
I do think the S65 is less prone to catastrophic failure as early on as the S85 though. Still working out why since the mode of failure is the same.
Indeed...of the many questions to be answered:Why are S65 engines so much more reliable than S85...they made extensive changes to the S85 engine on its evolution to the S65 but left the bearing clearance untouched.
Why are UK S65 engines far more reliable than USA S65 engines...they have identical internals.
Why did BMW never change the S65 rod bearing clearance...
The reported frequency of problems in the US market compared to the U.K. has everything to do with their approach to customer service, and nothing to do with engineering specifications.
Chucking a question out there for those who’ve had the work done on their cars. Anyone had a subsequent failure further down the line??
Who’s the best to speak to about having the work done in the south of he country. Ideally within an hour of Swindon area???
If I was to view a car, what should I be looking for????
Sorry to resurrect, however considering an E92 M3 as my next car in a couple of months time.
Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
mat205125 said:
Sorry to resurrect, however considering an E92 M3 as my next car in a couple of months time.
Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
Oil samples aren't necessarily accurate. Copper could be in there from a previous change of bearings, so not a realistic method of checking. The only way to know is to drop the sump and check them, and then you may as well change them.Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
Noise / evidence - a knocking sound. They do not give any indication that they're about to fail until they fail. Then you're buying a new crank.
mat205125 said:
Sorry to resurrect, however considering an E92 M3 as my next car in a couple of months time.
Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
There wouldn't really be any noise to indicate the bearings are going to fail and the oil test is a debatable method to use if you want to check.Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
If you really want one and the bearings really bother you just factor the cost of replacing the bearings into your budget when looking and get them replaced right away (good time to get the engine mounts done too).
That way you can run it with peace of mind knowing that only you have driven the car on the new ones.
jon- said:
Evolve do the cheapest swap I believe, but it's still £1400+VAT.
Throttle actuators and DSC failure are way more common IMO, both around £1000 to fix.
I'd suspect CPC would be a bit cheaper than that all in. Vaguely mind this job and timing chain replacement on the S62 being about £2.5k with them including VAT, bearings being around the grand mark for labour.Throttle actuators and DSC failure are way more common IMO, both around £1000 to fix.
Biggest issue would be geography in relation to places like these where you'd want to put the car...in Scotland anyway.
Edited by Patrick Bateman on Monday 18th February 19:28
mat205125 said:
Just watched the Evolve video on YouTube. Very interesting
I've no reason to question Evolve, they're an excellent garage and have worked on my cars, if I was in their business I would also have put out a video showing the worst case scenario. Good for business.There's plenty of cars 100,000 mile+ without spun engines.
Patrick Bateman said:
TheAngryDog said:
Mr Vanos in Darlington are also well priced. My engine is being rebuilt by them at the moment.
You did well just to get a hold of the guy!A lot of people can be hard to get hold of. I've been told Areeve is, I know Phil Crouch is, Redish were impossible to get hold of when I wanted some work doing. It's swibgs and roundabouts.
RWDKurt said:
The work was done by Steve Lewis (aka Mr Vanos) in Darlington. OE shells and bolts - the shells were the later type which run less tight tolerances than the earlier design.
He's done plenty - I'd trust his judgement on choice of parts (OE vs aftermarket).
I don't believe the size of the shells is any different. Do you have any proof to make the above statement?He's done plenty - I'd trust his judgement on choice of parts (OE vs aftermarket).
mat205125 said:
Sorry to resurrect, however considering an E92 M3 as my next car in a couple of months time.
Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
There is not a manufacturing or engineering design problem with the bearings. There are several metals used in the engine and they all expand at different rates. The problem is caused by idiots that rag their cars from cold without allowing the oil and engine to warm up properly and thus be ready to take 8K+ revs safely. All performance engines run tight tolerance for maximum performance & efficiency. F1 engines are extreme in their tolerance - the fluids need to be heated and pumped around the engine before it can be even started. They do not have a problem. It's understanding how to use them and mechanical sympathy.Did BMW ever instigate a recall for these problems?
Is there a test (such as the engine oil sample that's been suggested on some forums) to indicate if there is a problem?
What kind of noise / evidence could there be if I were viewing a potential purchase?
ant man said:
There is not a manufacturing or engineering design problem with the bearings. There are several metals used in the engine and they all expand at different rates. The problem is caused by idiots that rag their cars from cold without allowing the oil and engine to warm up properly and thus be ready to take 8K+ revs safely. All performance engines run tight tolerance for maximum performance & efficiency. F1 engines are extreme in their tolerance - the fluids need to be heated and pumped around the engine before it can be even started. They do not have a problem. It's understanding how to use them and mechanical sympathy.
This is the case with many high performance engines, not just the S65 / S85. M96 / M97 Porsche engine bore score is another example that although unproven seems to be linked with working the engine hard from cold, along with wide open throttle at low revs in high gear. The big problem with all of these engines is that whilst those of us who understand them are happy to warm them thoroughly before working them hard, it's impossible to really know how the previous owner(s) have treated the car. Even if they claim to always warm it up properly before driving hard there's just no way to be sure that they've always done this.
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