E92 M3 - Rod Bearings

[AW10]

Magnum 475 said:

This is the case with many high performance engines, not just the S65 / S85. M96 / M97 Porsche engine bore score is another example that although unproven seems to be linked with working the engine hard from cold, along with wide open throttle at low revs in high gear.

The big problem with all of these engines is that whilst those of us who understand them are happy to warm them thoroughly before working them hard, it's impossible to really know how the previous owner(s) have treated the car. Even if they claim to always warm it up properly before driving hard there's just no way to be sure that they've always done this.

+1000

I think BMW was daft when they put the changing rev limit tacho into the S54 and S85 cars (don't know the intricacies of the S65 cars). That implied 6000 rpm from cold was fine. I recall the chap who bought my Z4M. Upon his request he heard the car start from cold and then test drove it. I told him low revs and low load until the oil was hot. First hint of open road he put his foot down hard on the throttle and did a 6000 rpm shift from 2nd into 3rd. After I was done tearing him a new one about how he was driving *my* car he said that if BMW thought 6000 rpm wasn't OK they would have lowered the rev limit. Plonker. Effing plonker. Zero mechanical sympathy/understanding. Thankfully he bought the car.

[ant man]

AW10 said:

+1000

I think BMW was daft when they put the changing rev limit tacho into the S54 and S85 cars (don't know the intricacies of the S65 cars). That implied 6000 rpm from cold was fine. I recall the chap who bought my Z4M. Upon his request he heard the car start from cold and then test drove it. I told him low revs and low load until the oil was hot. First hint of open road he put his foot down hard on the throttle and did a 6000 rpm shift from 2nd into 3rd. After I was done tearing him a new one about how he was driving *my* car he said that if BMW thought 6000 rpm wasn't OK they would have lowered the rev limit. Plonker. Effing plonker. Zero mechanical sympathy/understanding. Thankfully he bought the car.

Aye, similar with the S65, not sure if it's 6k or a bit lower but still way too much from cold. BMW even had further opportunity with DCT to force the gearbox to change up early whilst the fluids were cold but they didn't.

[Gouki]

I had mine done on a 130,000 mile E46 M3 and they came out pristine. Thanks to the previous owners, and multiple oil changes. Also, I'm not sure if this is true of the S65, but for the E46 the engine rpm shift lights can be altered for oil temp rather than water temp. Something apparently implemented for the CSL.

[Patrick Bateman]

As a general rule withy e39 M5 I just kept it below 3k until the oil was up to temperature.

[jon-]

I'd rather run to 4,000rpm on a light throttle than heavy throttle at lower RPMs as that's fair more difficult for the engine!

[AW10]

That's sensible on any car where you want to maximise engine life.

[Rob J]

jon- said:

I'd rather run to 4,000rpm on a light throttle than heavy throttle at lower RPMs as that's fair more difficult for the engine!

But not for the rod bearings which are not affected by engine loading under any RPM

[AW10]

Rob J said:

But not for the rod bearings which are not affected by engine loading under any RPM

Can you elaborate? Are you saying that rod bearing loads are not affected by engine loading?

[TheAngryDog]

AW10 said:

Rob J said:

But not for the rod bearings which are not affected by engine loading under any RPM

Can you elaborate? Are you saying that rod bearing loads are not affected by engine loading?

They will be, but on the S65 and S85 they also have tight clearances, so the oil doesn't get around them so easily.

[custardkid]

So if you were to get the bearings done on an s65 what would you go for ....

BMW - probably the highest development budget, and yet to hear of an actual failure, and apparently harder than the copper lead originals
BE - not sure if they have any history, looks like a company set up specifically to capitalise on the hysteria, with no testing, but popular in the USA... I guess time will tell
ACL - some race history, copper lead design so would pick up wear in oil tests

Ether way sounds like a swop every 40-60k miles is advisable

[Rob_R]

ACL seem to be popular at the moment as they are less costly than some of the other options and by and large do the same job. (Although I'm not suggesting that ACL are the best option)

The problem is investigation and findings over time. I've seen a couple of pictures of ACL (and other uprated) bearings coming out of an S65 having done 30k+ miles looking absolutely pristine with no wear whatsoever. Now, is this down to careful driving from the owner? Consistent oil changes? Ever so slightly larger clearance from the ACL design? Who knows? We just don't have the empirical findings to corroborate any particular theory at this stage.

FWIW I'm having my bearings swapped out in two week's time to ACL. This isn't because I'm scared of engine failure, it's because I plan on using the car for track work much more frequently than I have done up until this point.

Edited by Rob_R on Wednesday 15th May 08:52

[Patrick Bateman]

Yes I suspect people have a natural instinct to want to try a new design, seeing it as an improvement.

As you say though, without any real date it's anybody's guess.

[custardkid]

Think I'll go ACL as they seem to do lots race applications
And treat it as 'big service' every few years

[SebringMan]

jon- said:

I've no reason to question Evolve, they're an excellent garage and have worked on my cars, if I was in their business I would also have put out a video showing the worst case scenario. Good for business.

There's plenty of cars 100,000 mile+ without spun engines.

There are also quite a few sub 50k cars with replacement engines. Only at Spa was I speaking to someone last year and yup, he's on engine no. 2 (with the shells changed) as his engine lunched its bearings at 21k. Ouch!

For me, it's not a £4k gamble worth considering, especally when over a year an M2 won't be much more than that potential bill.

Gouki said:

I had mine done on a 130,000 mile E46 M3 and they came out pristine. Thanks to the previous owners, and multiple oil changes. Also, I'm not sure if this is true of the S65, but for the E46 the engine rpm shift lights can be altered for oil temp rather than water temp. Something apparently implemented for the CSL.

Mine was the same at 135k

I was told mine were the second best set of bearings he removed from an engine, the other being a 138k engine locally to me. He was saying that most of the others (including his 70k car) were worse than mine. I know on M3cutters, some who have done theirs on 60k cars have seen significant wear down to the copper in quite a few instances.

[Phooey]

re rod bearings - does this affect all m3 v8s or are the later (2011-13) cars ok?

[RS Grant]

Phooey said:

re rod bearings - does this affect all m3 v8s or are the later (2011-13) cars ok?

It's an issue on all model years I'm afraid.

There was a change on the later LCI cars from c2010 onwards, which does seem to reduce the failure rate slightly but still doesn't remove it as a potential failure. Therefore owners/potential owners should think carefully about either paying for preventative replacements or an airtight warranty which will cover the big rebuild/replacement engine bill should they fail.

[Phooey]

RS Grant said:

It's an issue on all model years I'm afraid.

There was a change on the later LCI cars from c2010 onwards, which does seem to reduce the failure rate slightly but still doesn't remove it as a potential failure. Therefore owners/potential owners should think carefully about either paying for preventative replacements or an airtight warranty which will cover the big rebuild/replacement engine bill should they fail.

Thanks Grant. I've just been looking at them in the classifieds... thought it'd make a fun track car hence searching any (potential) known issues. I don't think any car is immune from a prob or two..

[acme]

RS Grant said:

It's an issue on all model years I'm afraid.

There was a change on the later LCI cars from c2010 onwards, which does seem to reduce the failure rate slightly but still doesn't remove it as a potential failure. Therefore owners/potential owners should think carefully about either paying for preventative replacements or an airtight warranty which will cover the big rebuild/replacement engine bill should they fail.

What would you consider an airtight warranty, BM one? Appreciate this has in part been discussed on another thread. Cheers

[mat205125]

Magnum 475 said:

This is the case with many high performance engines, not just the S65 / S85. M96 / M97 Porsche engine bore score is another example that although unproven seems to be linked with working the engine hard from cold, along with wide open throttle at low revs in high gear.

The big problem with all of these engines is that whilst those of us who understand them are happy to warm them thoroughly before working them hard, it's impossible to really know how the previous owner(s) have treated the car. Even if they claim to always warm it up properly before driving hard there's just no way to be sure that they've always done this.

Absolutely right.

There's a number of ways of looking at these engines and the work that is required to keep them in rude health.

The cynical forum keyboard jockey pessimism of doom, gloom, hell and brimstone is one way, or alternatively, we need to detach our association with the engines being in a familiar saloon car shape, and think about the engine more objectively.

Line up a handful of cars with normally aspirated high output V8 and V10 engines ..... the list isn't a long one, however does include many exotic and savagely expensive brands.

The M3 V8 is every bit as impressive as the V8 in the rear of a Ferrari 360 / 430, however the latter needs expensive maintenance on a more regular interval, and isn't going to reliably run past 100k as dependably as the M3

Same story with the V10 in the M5 when compared to the Lambo V10, the running costs of an RS6, or the head bolts snapping on the Merc 6.2 engines.

In the big scheme of things, if the only concern with the E92 is a need a precautionary replacement of shells every 70k miles, which you need to budget £1500 for, and a throttle body or two every few years, then we need to be applauding this engine as an amazing piece of performance engineering.

[The Ferret]

mat205125 said:

In the big scheme of things, if the only concern with the E92 is a need a precautionary replacement of shells every 70k miles, which you need to budget £1500 for, and a throttle body or two every few years, then we need to be applauding this engine as an amazing piece of performance engineering.

It's not even that bad. The throttle actuators from rebuild come with a lifetime warranty, so you should only ever need to worry about that once. Similarly, if you get the bearings changed as soon as you buy the car you will likely never need to look at them again providing you drive it with some mechanical sympathy when cold.

I agree the engine is amazing, and when you compare it to the kind of car you need to buy to get the same experience the problems pale into absolute insignificance IMO. I know its on old cliche, but the E92 V8 really is the last of its kind from BMW, give it 10 years and people will be moaning that they should have picked one up when you could buy a decent one for £15k-£20k