E60 M5 vs F10 M5 thoughts

E60 M5 vs F10 M5 thoughts

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A44RON

Original Poster:

500 posts

99 months

Monday 3rd July 2023
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I've just spent a few days with a 2015 Porsche Cayenne Turbo as a courtesy car and it’s recalibrated my thoughts on what was my next attainable dream car; a tidy un-molested E60 M5 LCi…

I’m not an SUV guy at all, I loathe them in fact. But aside from the sheer mass/weight of the Cayenne and the high centre-of-gravity, I really fell in love with the colossal power & torque, effortless overtaking, eventful V8 rumble, comfort, refinement and luxurious cabin... it was very hard to give back and I need those qualities in my life.

Which got me thinking during my time with it... what the hell would an F10 M5 be like and that perhaps the F10 M5 in LCi form would be the better choice; even more power than the Cayenne Turbo(!), similar torque across a wider band, a whopping 240kg lighter than the Cayenne, much better handling & more chuckable, low-slung centre-of-gravity you’d expect of a Super Saloon, similar refinement and cabin quality… the vision was forming in my head and it was ticking a lot of boxes!

But then again, I still adore the E60 M5 because N/A V10, come-of-age styling (I genuinely think they’re stunning now), razor-sharp throttle response, more characterful despite/because of its flaws, plus after reading the S63TU failure thread below I’m now thinking maybe the S85 is actually the better bet. But I’ve only heard of the early 2011-2013 F10 M5s having trouble so far? I could be wrong.

There was a lovely blue 2016 F10 M5 Comp Pack that sold near me last month and I’m now actually kicking myself I didn't go for it because I was hanging out for the ideal year/spec E60 M5 to come along and therefore I could be waiting for some time and missing opportunities elsewhere. Overall price-wise they both come in very similar because with the E60 I’ve budgeted for new Rod Bearings, Throttle Actuators, SMG Pump, Eisenmann exhaust, Eventuri intakes, Evolve remap. However, all that I’ll do to an F10 M5 is put on a fruity exhaust and Eventuri intakes to release a bit more noise, it’s already more than powerful enough.

So given the choice, what would you plump for?

bumskins

1,595 posts

18 months

Monday 3rd July 2023
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A44RON said:
So given the choice, what would you plump for?
A nice problem to have for sure!

I'm similar to you in that i've fancied an E60 for a long time, and despite 'flirting' with the idea of getting an F10 instead I just don't feel the drivetrain/controls are special enough for me to justify the expense; no doubt a ruthlessly efficient car and nigh-unbeatable if you want to do 50-150mph drag racing. However, for actually driving i'd go for the N/A V10, and know that if I did take the plunge with an F10 everytime I started up that disappointing-sounding V8 i'd regret the choice I made... Yes you can always up the volume with the V8 in terms of bolt-ons, but it's always going to sound like a wet fart compared to an S85 sin't it?

skeeterm5

3,438 posts

191 months

Monday 3rd July 2023
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I have owned both and would take the F10 every time. It is faster, better built, more comfortable and doesn’t have the ‘fragility’ of the V10.

The F10 also does away with a bunch of unnecessary complication and adjustments in the E60.

The SMG in the E60 is ok and you can learn to get it to run smoothly but it feels like an antique after the F10.

The big plus point for the E60 is the character of that V10, but for me, that one trick simply isn’t enough to choose it for day to day use over the F10.

You can also get the F10 as a BMW AUC which is not to be underestimated.

JMBMWM5

2,306 posts

201 months

Tuesday 4th July 2023
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I found the E60 boring, no torque, you need to rev the guts out of it to get performance and lack of economy was a killer, go F10 with full history, you'll be better off.

rassi

2,459 posts

254 months

Tuesday 4th July 2023
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For me the E60 M5 was far more memorable than the F10 M5, as the engine was a highlight every single time. The SMG should be considered and used as a manual at all times, forget about its auto function. In contrast the F10 is a continent crusher, far better economy and range (also 80 litre tank, instead of 70 litres) and the DCT is an excellent box.

Specced right (full leather and alcantara headliner, and possibly as Competition) the F10 is certainly in contention, and if you intend to do any serious mileage, it is the better choice.

Stever

1,529 posts

252 months

Tuesday 4th July 2023
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I went from an E63 M6 to an F06 M6GC to a 2016 Cayenne Turbo.

The E63 is stunning and when pushing on utterly fabulous but as a daily, the SMG is the reason I sold it. Definitely use it as a manual and by tapping the gear knob as the paddles are clacky and irritating but if you have to reverse up a slight income the SMG will make you look like a learner everytime and it's amazing how often you have to reverse uphill smile The E60 and E63 are stunning to see nowdays they've aged really well.

The F06 is a much more accomplished car as you'd expect and better in every way IMO. It still make s good noise (not V10 standards obviously) but if you want the BMW insured warranty you need a car below 60,000 miles (hard to find an E60 at that level now) as it leaps into unaffordable at that level. I wouldn't run either without a warranty, my V10 dropped a valve and £7K bill (for the insurers)

The problem with buying older cars like this, while you will hopefully treat it with respect and warm it carefully etc, you cannot know what the previous owners did and you will pick up the pieces if they were heathens/fkwits Either car can throw a very expensive bill if you're unlucky.

Lastly, I know this is an M forum, don't expect the same level of quality and comfort to the Cayenne you have just handed back, Porsche are a huge step up in both those areas and you'll struggle even more in the winter with the BMWs to get the power down without another set of wheels and winter tyres.

TheAngryDog

12,460 posts

212 months

Tuesday 4th July 2023
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You're going to get as lot of replies from people who will (rightly) justify why you should buy X rather than Y based on their experiences. You'll get people who don't get the V10 and how special it is, and you'll get people who adore the extra torque, DCT transmission and more modern F10 M5 (I am trying to be objective). Bias is a thing.

I can give you my view, but ultimately you need to make your own mind up.

I have owned my E60 for just over 5 years and been through an engine rebuild (at my expense). Despite this, I am still not brave enough to run any car that is equipped with an S63 engine, yet I REALLY like the F10 M5 still and if I could justify it, I'd have one as a daily to go with my E60, but as I cannot do that, and I want my M5 to feel like an occasion every time I use it, for me the E60 is the one.

You'll hear horror stories about both cars / engines. You'll hear stories about the lack of torque from the S85 (and it's true, but, that doesn't really give you the full story, and gearboxes exist for a reason), rod bearing failures, injector failures, dropped valves (I know 2 people that this has happened to) and SMG issues (the gearbox itself is good, it's the electrics and hydraulics that can cause the issues). You'll get told about how the S63 likes to spin bearings, failed injectors and coil pack failures. I know people who have suffered these issues.

You'll also get told about how riotous the V10 is once it has been wound up, the sound, the feel of the SMG as it bangs into the next gear at 8250rpm, how it surges beyond 6000rpm, with the fuel economy of a space shuttle, but the thrill of driving the last of its kind - an N/A M5. You'll get told about how torquey the S63 is, how it will pull from any gear at pretty much any speed. How tuneable it is, how it is better on fuel, but they sound disappointing compared to the V8's from Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and that is a huge let down.

I can tell you that I have driven a standard F10 M5, back to back with my then standard E60 M5 (power wise). Disappointed I was not to get back into my E60, and once the initial joy at having some midrange torque wore off, the F10 just became a bit dull to me. However, that didn't stop me seriously considering one earlier this year when I was debating what to do with my E60. In the end I decided I wasn't brave enough to run a S63 engine out of warranty, and I would want to tune it anyway, so it would defeat the object. In the end I decided to supercharge my E60, and boy oh boy, sooooooooooooo glad I did.

Anyway, as a take away, only you can decide which is best for you. You should listen to what people have to say, but make your own mind up.

Good luck.

A44RON

Original Poster:

500 posts

99 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
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TheAngryDog said:
You're going to get as lot of replies from people who will (rightly) justify why you should buy X rather than Y based on their experiences. You'll get people who don't get the V10 and how special it is, and you'll get people who adore the extra torque, DCT transmission and more modern F10 M5 (I am trying to be objective). Bias is a thing.

I can give you my view, but ultimately you need to make your own mind up.

I have owned my E60 for just over 5 years and been through an engine rebuild (at my expense). Despite this, I am still not brave enough to run any car that is equipped with an S63 engine, yet I REALLY like the F10 M5 still and if I could justify it, I'd have one as a daily to go with my E60, but as I cannot do that, and I want my M5 to feel like an occasion every time I use it, for me the E60 is the one.

You'll hear horror stories about both cars / engines. You'll hear stories about the lack of torque from the S85 (and it's true, but, that doesn't really give you the full story, and gearboxes exist for a reason), rod bearing failures, injector failures, dropped valves (I know 2 people that this has happened to) and SMG issues (the gearbox itself is good, it's the electrics and hydraulics that can cause the issues). You'll get told about how the S63 likes to spin bearings, failed injectors and coil pack failures. I know people who have suffered these issues.

You'll also get told about how riotous the V10 is once it has been wound up, the sound, the feel of the SMG as it bangs into the next gear at 8250rpm, how it surges beyond 6000rpm, with the fuel economy of a space shuttle, but the thrill of driving the last of its kind - an N/A M5. You'll get told about how torquey the S63 is, how it will pull from any gear at pretty much any speed. How tuneable it is, how it is better on fuel, but they sound disappointing compared to the V8's from Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and that is a huge let down.

I can tell you that I have driven a standard F10 M5, back to back with my then standard E60 M5 (power wise). Disappointed I was not to get back into my E60, and once the initial joy at having some midrange torque wore off, the F10 just became a bit dull to me. However, that didn't stop me seriously considering one earlier this year when I was debating what to do with my E60. In the end I decided I wasn't brave enough to run a S63 engine out of warranty, and I would want to tune it anyway, so it would defeat the object. In the end I decided to supercharge my E60, and boy oh boy, sooooooooooooo glad I did.

Anyway, as a take away, only you can decide which is best for you. You should listen to what people have to say, but make your own mind up.

Good luck.
Thanks AD, I’ve read your ongoing legendary E60 M5 thread from start-to-present and always look forward to your posts beer

Ultimately I suppose it’s down to personal preference, as both are great cars but have different characters. The local dealer to myself currently has an M6 V10 (albeit convertible, therefore heavier - sigh) in stock, plus a 2014 F10 M5… I have a good relationship with them, having bought my current car from them a few years ago. I’ll see if they will let me test-drive both cars back-to-back knowing that I'm serious, so I can at least get a feel for the V10 and SMG ‘box (never experienced before) and then the F10 with tt V8 and DCT… then decide which I prefer smile as it stands, I’m currently 60/40 in favour of E60, but it’s finding a tidy LCi that will prove tricky

cerb4.5lee

31,670 posts

183 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
For me I don't think that you can lose either way. I'm not usually a fan of high rev/low torque engines and I didn't get on with my E92 M3, however I'd imagine that the E60 M5 is a bit different because it has more capacity/more cylinders though. So for me personally I'd like the E60 for the 5.0 V10, but I think that the F10 would suit me more because I love the punch that turbos offer(especially if the car is being used as a daily).

TheAngryDog

12,460 posts

212 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
A44RON said:
TheAngryDog said:
You're going to get as lot of replies from people who will (rightly) justify why you should buy X rather than Y based on their experiences. You'll get people who don't get the V10 and how special it is, and you'll get people who adore the extra torque, DCT transmission and more modern F10 M5 (I am trying to be objective). Bias is a thing.

I can give you my view, but ultimately you need to make your own mind up.

I have owned my E60 for just over 5 years and been through an engine rebuild (at my expense). Despite this, I am still not brave enough to run any car that is equipped with an S63 engine, yet I REALLY like the F10 M5 still and if I could justify it, I'd have one as a daily to go with my E60, but as I cannot do that, and I want my M5 to feel like an occasion every time I use it, for me the E60 is the one.

You'll hear horror stories about both cars / engines. You'll hear stories about the lack of torque from the S85 (and it's true, but, that doesn't really give you the full story, and gearboxes exist for a reason), rod bearing failures, injector failures, dropped valves (I know 2 people that this has happened to) and SMG issues (the gearbox itself is good, it's the electrics and hydraulics that can cause the issues). You'll get told about how the S63 likes to spin bearings, failed injectors and coil pack failures. I know people who have suffered these issues.

You'll also get told about how riotous the V10 is once it has been wound up, the sound, the feel of the SMG as it bangs into the next gear at 8250rpm, how it surges beyond 6000rpm, with the fuel economy of a space shuttle, but the thrill of driving the last of its kind - an N/A M5. You'll get told about how torquey the S63 is, how it will pull from any gear at pretty much any speed. How tuneable it is, how it is better on fuel, but they sound disappointing compared to the V8's from Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and that is a huge let down.

I can tell you that I have driven a standard F10 M5, back to back with my then standard E60 M5 (power wise). Disappointed I was not to get back into my E60, and once the initial joy at having some midrange torque wore off, the F10 just became a bit dull to me. However, that didn't stop me seriously considering one earlier this year when I was debating what to do with my E60. In the end I decided I wasn't brave enough to run a S63 engine out of warranty, and I would want to tune it anyway, so it would defeat the object. In the end I decided to supercharge my E60, and boy oh boy, sooooooooooooo glad I did.

Anyway, as a take away, only you can decide which is best for you. You should listen to what people have to say, but make your own mind up.

Good luck.
Thanks AD, I’ve read your ongoing legendary E60 M5 thread from start-to-present and always look forward to your posts beer
Cheers! I don't think my wallet looks forward to my posts laugh


A44RON said:
Ultimately I suppose it’s down to personal preference, as both are great cars but have different characters. The local dealer to myself currently has an M6 V10 (albeit convertible, therefore heavier - sigh) in stock, plus a 2014 F10 M5… I have a good relationship with them, having bought my current car from them a few years ago. I’ll see if they will let me test-drive both cars back-to-back knowing that I'm serious, so I can at least get a feel for the V10 and SMG ‘box (never experienced before) and then the F10 with tt V8 and DCT… then decide which I prefer smile as it stands, I’m currently 60/40 in favour of E60, but it’s finding a tidy LCi that will prove tricky
I think it really boils down to what you want the car to do. Daily? F10 every time. Weekend / day out blast? E60.

You definitely need to drive both, and if possible, drive both for more than 10 minutes. Neither will be warmed up by then so you won't get to experience the fun stuff!

For me the DCT is miles ahead of the SMG, but that doesn't mean I dislike SMG - its rawness when changing gear (especially now, ESS alter the SMG parameters so FFS is now quite brutal!)

The V10 really is an occasion. Either way, Lee is right, you can't really lose if you buy based on your requirements.

rassi

2,459 posts

254 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
TheAngryDog said:
I think it really boils down to what you want the car to do. Daily? F10 every time. Weekend / day out blast? E60.

You definitely need to drive both, and if possible, drive both for more than 10 minutes. Neither will be warmed up by then so you won't get to experience the fun stuff!

For me the DCT is miles ahead of the SMG, but that doesn't mean I dislike SMG - its rawness when changing gear (especially now, ESS alter the SMG parameters so FFS is now quite brutal!)

The V10 really is an occasion. Either way, Lee is right, you can't really lose if you buy based on your requirements.
100 % this

theboss

6,978 posts

222 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
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I can't offer any basis of comparison having not owned an E60 but have covered nearly 160k in my F10 from new and still use it as my long-distance car.

I do think the F10 is absolutely superb as a balance between being able to cover ground very quickly and comfortably whilst still offering the driver engagement and enjoyment factor of an M package. To sum it up, I would drive this car to e.g. Berlin for a weekend thinking little of the distance, and still want to take time to detour and take it round the ring on the way home. Or last summer when I drove it all over the Balkans and still did an Alpine detour on the way home to take in as many passes as I could.

If I were in a diesel barge I would just want to get home ASAP. If I were in something I perceived as fragile I'd be worried about even being able to get home from 1000-2000 miles away.

Obviously this isn't to say F10's are perfect, but if you want a long distance dependable 'all rounder' they are a good choice.

On the subject of range I can never understand why they shrunk the fuel tank for the F90 either.

TheAngryDog

12,460 posts

212 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
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I'd happily take my E60 on the continent tomorrow and cover many thousands of miles without worry. I'd do the same in an F10 that had had the remedial work done. My concern is that many S63 engines seem to be failing now. I know one company who must be doing 1 or 2 engine rebuilds a week. By comparison they don't mention many S85's, but I will caveat this, many now will have had the remedial work done, so are less at risk of failure.

theboss

6,978 posts

222 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
Are E60's faring better now because the cars that are in good shape are in the hands of discerning owners who are addressing long-term reliability issues, whereas the F10's are still relatively speaking in mass ownership with greater numbers of cars waiting to go wrong?

I wonder if over time there's effectively a 'natural selection' effect with the stronger cars surviving as well as the ownership base being reduced to those who more inclined to maintain to high standards.

Just an observation that when I took mine in for its preventative rod-bearing change there were a handful of E60's in there for various works but no other F10's.

It might be complete bks, I'm just thinking out loud.

bmwmike

7,106 posts

111 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
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I think that's probably a big factor. Many f10 m5s show 5 or higher owners, flipped often, probably minimal servicing etc and cutting corners, maybe abused.

I love the f10 shape. An S85 in the f10 m5 might be interesting.

TheAngryDog

12,460 posts

212 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
theboss said:
Are E60's faring better now because the cars that are in good shape are in the hands of discerning owners who are addressing long-term reliability issues, whereas the F10's are still relatively speaking in mass ownership with greater numbers of cars waiting to go wrong?

I wonder if over time there's effectively a 'natural selection' effect with the stronger cars surviving as well as the ownership base being reduced to those who more inclined to maintain to high standards.

Just an observation that when I took mine in for its preventative rod-bearing change there were a handful of E60's in there for various works but no other F10's.

It might be complete bks, I'm just thinking out loud.
I think that is entirely plausible. I think tuned F10's tend to be at more risk of failure, at least those are the ones that seen more common.

In our V10 Owners WhatsApp group, there is a feeling that the majority of wear on things like rod bearings are caused early on in the cars life, owing to long service intervals and unsympathetic owners. I suspect that is the same with the f10.

I think as time goes on, the enthusiast owned cars will live on.

A44RON

Original Poster:

500 posts

99 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
rassi said:
TheAngryDog said:
I think it really boils down to what you want the car to do. Daily? F10 every time. Weekend / day out blast? E60.

You definitely need to drive both, and if possible, drive both for more than 10 minutes. Neither will be warmed up by then so you won't get to experience the fun stuff!

For me the DCT is miles ahead of the SMG, but that doesn't mean I dislike SMG - its rawness when changing gear (especially now, ESS alter the SMG parameters so FFS is now quite brutal!)

The V10 really is an occasion. Either way, Lee is right, you can't really lose if you buy based on your requirements.
100 % this
it will mostly be a daily... i do have two other cars though, so I can spread the load across those also if need be (trying to justify the V10 if it comes down to it)

cerb4.5lee

31,670 posts

183 months

Wednesday 5th July 2023
quotequote all
A44RON said:
it will mostly be a daily... i do have two other cars though, so I can spread the load across those also if need be (trying to justify the V10 if it comes down to it)
For me personally I'd steer well clear of using one as a daily. The range/mpg could grate, plus the engines characteristics suit open/clear roads in my opinion as well. I absolutely hated my E92 M3 day to day on my commute, but I do appreciate that we are all different though for sure.

jm doc

2,826 posts

235 months

Monday 10th July 2023
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Having had E39 (x2), E60, E63, F10 F90 and currently F90C LCI over the last 25 yrs I would say the F10 was the most disappointing, mainly because it was almost impossible to drive without lighting up the traction control. Traffic light getaways were embarassing, but also the interior was disappointing and didn't have the feel of quality that the E39 and F90 has. The E60/63 was epic, that V10 is glorious and none of the others come close for the sound and the delivery as you wind it up through the gears. F90 the best all round in terms of performance of the engine, the transmission and the handling, just outstanding.

I would love to have another E60 but in general newer is better and if you need a daily driver F10 might be better, but will need to accept that it's unuseable in the snow and quite difficult in the wet.

E90_M3Ross

35,301 posts

215 months

Monday 10th July 2023
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I haven't driven an F10, but I have driven an F13 M6, I found it very capable, but not exciting. Daily driver, F10 would be better, but if you want something that gives a bit more excitement whilst still being a good daily driver, then perhaps the E60 is better.

Those complaining of little torque....true, to an extent, but come on, it's not like you're driving a 1L city car with 60bhp laugh