Nirmrod Decision coming back to haunt the Government?
Discussion
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
davepoth said:
$3 billion and counting according to wikipedia, not exactly cheap if it's true.
The sad thing about Nimrod was that they would have been cheaper as new builds. BAE thought the airframes would be OK but it turned out that they were all not to spec and needed a lot of extra work.
I think you will find that is Daily Wail spin. The fuselages were all built on jigs, so how (30 years later) they could be several inches out is beyond real belief.The sad thing about Nimrod was that they would have been cheaper as new builds. BAE thought the airframes would be OK but it turned out that they were all not to spec and needed a lot of extra work.
And you'll also find that BAe DID want to do new build anyway - it's was a Govt/MoD decision to refurb exitg frames to save money
Elroy Blue said:
No it wasn't and I'm sure the RAF Maritime bods would be happy to tell you why.
Cameron has proved that he has come from the Blair mould of Politics. They are both incompetent knobs of the highest order.
Still, I'm sure all those overseas despots are busy looking at what holiday home they are going to be buying with all that extra 'aid' they'll be getting.
And the sweeping comment about it being crap, we'll never know due to the speed they were disposed at.Cameron has proved that he has come from the Blair mould of Politics. They are both incompetent knobs of the highest order.
Still, I'm sure all those overseas despots are busy looking at what holiday home they are going to be buying with all that extra 'aid' they'll be getting.
As to the Libya campaign, at no point did I ever state the it would have an effect, I was pointing out how there is no money for Nimrod, then suddenly millions available for a new conflict.
Elroy Blue said:
Cameron has proved that he has come from the Blair mould of Politics. They are both incompetent knobs of the highest order.
Blair came to power because he worked out what people wanted to hear him say, then used his oratory skills to say it and so get votes. He was little more than a clever mirror reflecting the naive and idealistic stupidity of much of the electorate. That electorate now has the internet and social media to make noisy minorities even noisier. It is also, I believe, an increasingly young, ignorant and left-leaning electorate who've grown used to the unsustainable freebies handed out by Labour. No longer do they vote for who is best placed to run the country (even if they knew); they vote for which side will give them the most stuff.No longer can a politician stand up and say 'f
k you' as per Mrs Thatcher because the media and the EU will force them to spend the next month back-pedalling and apologising and generally being PC.Cameron saw how Blair got into power and knew that if you can't beat them, copy them. He had no other way, and that is how it will be until something very big happens. When you think that only 100 years ago it was 1911, and what the 20th century had in store, we can have NO idea what the 21st will bring.
Simpo Two said:
Elroy Blue said:
Cameron has proved that he has come from the Blair mould of Politics. They are both incompetent knobs of the highest order.
Blair came to power because he worked out what people wanted to hear him say, then used his oratory skills to say it and so get votes. He was little more than a clever mirror reflecting the naive and idealistic stupidity of much of the electorate. That electorate now has the internet and social media to make noisy minorities even noisier. It is also, I believe, an increasingly young, ignorant and left-leaning electorate who've grown used to the unsustainable freebies handed out by Labour. No longer do they vote for who is best placed to run the country (even if they knew); they vote for which side will give them the most stuff.No longer can a politician stand up and say 'f
k you' as per Mrs Thatcher because the media and the EU will force them to spend the next month back-pedalling and apologising and generally being PC.Cameron saw how Blair got into power and knew that if you can't beat them, copy them. He had no other way, and that is how it will be until something very big happens.
Simpo Two said:
It is also, I believe, an increasingly young, ignorant and left-leaning electorate who've grown used to the unsustainable freebies handed out by Labour. No longer do they vote for who is best placed to run the country (even if they knew); they vote for which side will give them the most stuff.
Your beliefs are incorrect. The elderly have a far higher election turnout than the young and due to the UKs demographics they also make up an increasing proportion of the population."Section 3 outlines the ways in which socio-demographic factors such as age, ethnicity
and geographical location affected whether or not people voted in the 2005 general
election. The key finding here is that, as in 2001, age remains a crucial predictor of
turnout – younger cohorts of voters are significantly less likely to vote than their older
counterparts."
http://www.essex.ac.uk/bes/Papers/ec%20report%20fi...
hopping back up the topic to that remark by Ginetta on the low level sonobuoys aspect..
Surely sonobuoys report back their gps position or is it 'well this is where we think it'll end up' based on something like CCIP?
Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
Surely sonobuoys report back their gps position or is it 'well this is where we think it'll end up' based on something like CCIP?
Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
http://www.essex.ac.uk/bes/Papers/ec%20report%20fi...
It's refreshing to know I helped pay for all 49 pages of that when the money could have been looking after the elderly. Do you actually read all that stuff?
But yes, we are getting OT so had better let them get back on course.
It's refreshing to know I helped pay for all 49 pages of that when the money could have been looking after the elderly. Do you actually read all that stuff?
But yes, we are getting OT so had better let them get back on course.
shouldbworking said:
hopping back up the topic to that remark by Ginetta on the low level sonobuoys aspect..
Surely sonobuoys report back their gps position or is it 'well this is where we think it'll end up' based on something like CCIP?
Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
Remember America reserves the right to jam gps at will... and to build a local gps jammer isn't that difficult (admittedly a bit harder for a sub to do it) Surely sonobuoys report back their gps position or is it 'well this is where we think it'll end up' based on something like CCIP?
Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
So building your kit around gps isn't the brightest move
Elroy Blue said:
No it wasn't and I'm sure the RAF Maritime bods would be happy to tell you why.
Don't you think guys whose job relies on the shiny new toy might be a tad biased though?After all, higher up the chain at the MoD, RAF senior officers offered up MRA4 as a saving that could be made to protect their two "must have" core types - Typhoon and Tornado. Killing Harrier was much more obvious - gives Tornado more to do and neuters the RAF's oldest enemy - the Royal Navy. Killing MRA4 was, I suspect, a "cunning plan" - they knew the project was going badly (few things are really fatally flawed but the amount of money to fix them can be considered a fatal flaw in itself), they knew it would suck money away from the "important" types but they also knew that maritime patrol is something the UK cannot do without - so sooner or later another new toy would be on the plate. Gambling on a "capability holiday" in order to preserve what they see as the RAF's raison d'être... obvious really.
Politicians often get the bad press but the inter-service squabblers just hand them the weapons and let them pull the trigger and take the blame. It was the same with TSR2 - by 1965 the RAF were willing to have it cancelled as long as they got F-111 instead. Look how well that worked out for them.
Simpo Two said:
http://www.essex.ac.uk/bes/Papers/ec%20report%20fi...
It's refreshing to know I helped pay for all 49 pages of that when the money could have been looking after the elderly. Do you actually read all that stuff?
But yes, we are getting OT so had better let them get back on course.
I recall where but I'd heard somewhere that it's oldies who actually vote, so I've always been surprised that politician bang on about the 'young' and 'hard working families' when they are sod all use to get you elected. Why not say "Vote for me and I'll double the state pension", seems like a good political idea to me.It's refreshing to know I helped pay for all 49 pages of that when the money could have been looking after the elderly. Do you actually read all that stuff?
But yes, we are getting OT so had better let them get back on course.
I've not read the report but I thought I should try and pack up my point with some research.
shouldbworking said:
Surely sonobuoys report back their gps position or is it 'well this is where we think it'll end up' based on something like CCIP?
Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
Sonobouys, whether active (pingers) or passive (listeners) are basically non directional RF beacons that report the presence, type, bearing, or position, of an acoustic target relative to themselves. Start putting GPS on them would help with position fixing but would increase the unit cost massively (since a lot are used when finding, tracking and killing a submarine). Even then, surely these things remain active for long enough to drift out of position?
Both the a/c nav system(s) and the buoys drift, so the best way to link their position with the a/c nav/attack system is to 'on top' them, ie fly over them to get the best 'fix' possible (similar to doing an NDB approach at an airfield). Obviously the RF is transmitted as cone, so the lower you can fly the 'on top' the more accurate the fix.
Furthermore, without going into Maritime Tactics, an attack run will generally be made off a given buoy, the order from the Tactical Commander being something like "Target classified as xxx, come off buoy y, make your attack track zzz.'
Other reasons that LRMPA are required to operate at low level are because they don't do just ASW, but things like ASuW, SAR, and Recce. ASuW requires low level so that you can stay below the radar horizon and not get shot down (especially given the nature of AD systems on modern warships). SAR requires low level capability because you are often forced into a visual search (let alone the accurate dropping of ASRA gear (dinghies). Recce often requires things like ship photography.
DamienB said:
After all, higher up the chain at the MoD, RAF senior officers offered up MRA4 as a saving
No they weren't. Both the RAF and thh Navy virtually begged Cameron to keep Nimrod. He saw it as a 'look at me I'm the leader' chance to show he was the Prime Minister. The first indication that he was just another Politician.Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Sonobouys, whether active (pingers) or passive (listeners) are basically non directional RF beacons that report the presence, type, bearing, or position, of an acoustic target relative to themselves. Start putting GPS on them would help with position fixing but would increase the unit cost massively (since a lot are used when finding, tracking and killing a submarine).
Both the a/c nav system(s) and the buoys drift, so the best way to link their position with the a/c nav/attack system is to 'on top' them, ie fly over them to get the best 'fix' possible (similar to doing an NDB approach at an airfield). Obviously the RF is transmitted as cone, so the lower you can fly the 'on top' the more accurate the fix.
Furthermore, without going into Maritime Tactics, an attack run will generally be made off a given buoy, the order from the Tactical Commander being something like "Target classified as xxx, come off buoy y, make your attack track zzz.'
Very interesting, thanks for your response. I'm surprised there isn't something more affordable considering the overlap with epirbs and the like which have to be cheap and plentiful!Both the a/c nav system(s) and the buoys drift, so the best way to link their position with the a/c nav/attack system is to 'on top' them, ie fly over them to get the best 'fix' possible (similar to doing an NDB approach at an airfield). Obviously the RF is transmitted as cone, so the lower you can fly the 'on top' the more accurate the fix.
Furthermore, without going into Maritime Tactics, an attack run will generally be made off a given buoy, the order from the Tactical Commander being something like "Target classified as xxx, come off buoy y, make your attack track zzz.'
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
And there's the rub!
Designing a bespoke a/c from scratch would, I guess, cost far more than MRA4 yet CMD decided not only to bin MRA4, but to have them cut up (so they couldn't be resurrected) all down to political expediency.
THEN he commits us to a second front in Libya.
The man is a Muppet of the first order!
You are being FAR to polite there,Designing a bespoke a/c from scratch would, I guess, cost far more than MRA4 yet CMD decided not only to bin MRA4, but to have them cut up (so they couldn't be resurrected) all down to political expediency.
THEN he commits us to a second front in Libya.
The man is a Muppet of the first order!
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
I watched him when he announced the slash and burn SDSR. I watched him when he said he would freeze Military pay and slash Military allowances.
THEN I watched him again when he decided we would intervene in Libya, and the spark in his eyes when he thought he would become a World Statesman off the back of the UK Military sickened me to my core.
I've seen that before.... It was called Mr B LIAR!
I'll go further, CMD is a of the first order!
I'm sick of 'spin' and self-serving politicos, personally I'd cluster bomb the lot of them.
That's better, but remember napalm sticks to even Teflon....THEN I watched him again when he decided we would intervene in Libya, and the spark in his eyes when he thought he would become a World Statesman off the back of the UK Military sickened me to my core.
I've seen that before.... It was called Mr B LIAR!
I'll go further, CMD is a
of the first order!I'm sick of 'spin' and self-serving politicos, personally I'd cluster bomb the lot of them.
"S"
Edited by Mojocvh on Tuesday 7th June 17:43
eharding said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh, FFS.It was paid for 20 times over, and was still a piece of crap.
BAe humped the taxpayer dry, and was looking for more, but didn't have a clue if they could make it work.
It was a happy gravy-train-till-retirement for a hell of a lot of people, but sadly we can't afford that sort of feckwittery now.
You really think any examples would have had a bearing on the Libya campaign?
Dream on.
badgers_back said:
Remember America reserves the right to jam gps at will... and to build a local gps jammer isn't that difficult (admittedly a bit harder for a sub to do it)
So building your kit around gps isn't the brightest move
"Galileo" It's not just for road usage taxation you know..So building your kit around gps isn't the brightest move
Ain't that a REALLY annoying logo...It's taken them some 700 plus years to come the full circle from building the chapels on the high ground of the Languedoc.....
Edited by Mojocvh on Tuesday 7th June 17:41
Mojocvh said:
eharding said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh, FFS.It was paid for 20 times over, and was still a piece of crap.
BAe humped the taxpayer dry, and was looking for more, but didn't have a clue if they could make it work.
It was a happy gravy-train-till-retirement for a hell of a lot of people, but sadly we can't afford that sort of feckwittery now.
You really think any examples would have had a bearing on the Libya campaign?
Dream on.
What's one of those, grandad?
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