HMS Queen Elizabeth

HMS Queen Elizabeth

Author
Discussion

thewarlock

814 posts

9 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
PugwasHDJ80 said:
No, you can land a chinook on a T45 and refuel it, but that's it. You don't have the engineering or internal volume to operate a chinook on a T45 like you can with a Merlin or a pair or Lynxes
Yes, what you're said is correct.

Which translates to "You can operate a Chinook off a T45 (or in the future, a T26)"

The latest OPVs don't have a hangar facility. That doesn't mean you can't 'operate' any helicopters from them.

98elise

18,806 posts

125 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Skyrocket21 said:
A recent one is the relief effort made by HMS Ocean in 2017 to the Caribbean in the aftermath of hurricane Irma and Maria, called operation Ruman.

Here's the deck of Ocean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOIunXnpwYY, notice the two Chinooks on the after deck and all the Merlins, they evacuated over 1000 people, the hanger was full of provisions too, including vehicles, marines etc, try doing that with a frigate.
That's a good example, but my point is you wouldn't be landing those people or carrying those provisions on a frigate. It would all be on a much cheaper civvy ship. Hangar space and aircraft provision would be supplied by the frigate.
How are you going to evacuate 1000 people with a single small helicopter?

It's almost as if the MOD looked at what their operational requirements were and came up with an aircraft carrier, just like every other major Navy.

Evanivitch

8,631 posts

86 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
98elise said:
How are you going to evacuate 1000 people with a single small helicopter?

It's almost as if the MOD looked at what their operational requirements were and came up with an aircraft carrier, just like every other major Navy.
Type 26 will take Merlin. At a squeeze (as in the case in most humanitarian missions), 50 PAX.

thewarlock

814 posts

9 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Type 26 will take Merlin.
And Chinook.

But you'll quickly run out of places on board to put the people, unless your mission bay is empty/equipped for that particular task.

Evanivitch

8,631 posts

86 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
thewarlock said:
And Chinook.

But you'll quickly run out of places on board to put the people, unless your mission bay is empty/equipped for that particular task.
But that goes back to my earlier point, the frigate is just the support infrastructure for the helicopter. You'd have a civvy ship paired with it that would host the supplies and take the PAX.

And to reiterate, I'm not against the carriers, and for fighting and power projection there is no alternative.

But as we were talking humanitarian at the time, I think they're somewhat excessive (price and capability) for the mission.

Wildcat45

7,539 posts

153 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
MartG said:
Bloody big frigate needed to carry all those helicopters !
I'm sure Japan would call it a frigate or destroyer!

Actually Japan is a great example of a nation that recognises the usefulness it's flat top and if it wasn't for a hang over from WW2, I think they'd be leaders in the non-nuclear powered CV game.

Their "destroyers" are as big as a RN Centaur class carrier.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-class_helico...

Evanivitch

8,631 posts

86 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Wildcat45 said:
I'm sure Japan would call it a frigate or destroyer!

Actually Japan is a great example of a nation that recognises the usefulness it's flat top and if it wasn't for a hang over from WW2, I think they'd be leaders in the non-nuclear powered CV game.

Their "destroyers" are as big as a RN Centaur class carrier.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izumo-class_helico...
That's just playing games with the classification for constitutional reasons.

It's not quite as class-bending as the Russian carriers that are effectively missile cruisers too.

TTmonkey

16,846 posts

211 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.

98elise

18,806 posts

125 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
thewarlock said:
And Chinook.

But you'll quickly run out of places on board to put the people, unless your mission bay is empty/equipped for that particular task.
But that goes back to my earlier point, the frigate is just the support infrastructure for the helicopter. You'd have a civvy ship paired with it that would host the supplies and take the PAX.

And to reiterate, I'm not against the carriers, and for fighting and power projection there is no alternative.

But as we were talking humanitarian at the time, I think they're somewhat excessive (price and capability) for the mission.
The point is they can do both, and of course more.

Wildcat45

7,539 posts

153 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
But that goes back to my earlier point, the frigate is just the support infrastructure for the helicopter. You'd have a civvy ship paired with it that would host the supplies and take the PAX.

And to reiterate, I'm not against the carriers, and for fighting and power projection there is no alternative.

But as we were talking humanitarian at the time, I think they're somewhat excessive (price and capability) for the mission.
Yes they may be excessive for that single mission. An Albion, Bay or a Point Class would offer much the same capability.

Humanitarian operations are just one role. I think this is the key to the QEC. As opposed to conventional carriers. Straight after humanitarian operations the same ship could be operating high tempo fixed wing operations. The next week at surge capacity in the LPH role.

A floating multi tool.

Wish cash tight I really think it is a sensible move having these. The STUFT ship or RFA can't be a humanitarian platform one week, and warship the next.

98elise

18,806 posts

125 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
98elise said:
How are you going to evacuate 1000 people with a single small helicopter?

It's almost as if the MOD looked at what their operational requirements were and came up with an aircraft carrier, just like every other major Navy.
Type 26 will take Merlin. At a squeeze (as in the case in most humanitarian missions), 50 PAX.
That's not as bad as I thought, but it's still limited and only one helicopter. In my day it was a Lynx!

It's not only air transport a carrier can provide. You have vehicles and smaller boats available, plus marines. You don't just land a helicopter and collect a few people. If you can get the carrier alongside then you can provide power and water.


Ayahuasca

26,409 posts

243 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.
That makes sense. The RN won’t send a carrier to help with sudden humanitarian emergencies halfway around the world.... apart from anything else it needs weeks to put a task group together.

Speculatore

1,998 posts

199 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Ayahuasca said:
TTmonkey said:
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.
That makes sense. The RN won’t send a carrier to help with sudden humanitarian emergencies halfway around the world.... apart from anything else it needs weeks to put a task group together.
Not quite true. On Illustrious in 2007 we had just completed anti-piracy ops off Somalia and were on our way home when we stopped off in Gibraltar to pick up Dads and Lads (Referred to as PACAS - Parents and Children at Sea) for the trip back to Portsmouth. I was at the airport to meet my Brother and Nephew when I received a call from the Captain telling me to get beck onboard for a HODs meeting (Head of Department). We had been re-tasked to head back across the Med to assist in the evacuation of UK nationals from Beirut. We landed the PACAS people in to the good hands of the team at Gibraltar and steamed at 'Best Speed' back across the MED and at the same time converting the ship from our current role to a humanitarian role. The brief was to be ready to accept around 1000 people who had lost everything and would have 1 suitcase each with all of their worldly possessions.
It is not only the ship that needs converting to a new role but also the crew.

TTmonkey

16,846 posts

211 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Speculatore said:
Ayahuasca said:
TTmonkey said:
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.
That makes sense. The RN won’t send a carrier to help with sudden humanitarian emergencies halfway around the world.... apart from anything else it needs weeks to put a task group together.
Not quite true. On Illustrious in 2007 we had just completed anti-piracy ops off Somalia and were on our way home when we stopped off in Gibraltar to pick up Dads and Lads (Referred to as PACAS - Parents and Children at Sea) for the trip back to Portsmouth. I was at the airport to meet my Brother and Nephew when I received a call from the Captain telling me to get beck onboard for a HODs meeting (Head of Department). We had been re-tasked to head back across the Med to assist in the evacuation of UK nationals from Beirut. We landed the PACAS people in to the good hands of the team at Gibraltar and steamed at 'Best Speed' back across the MED and at the same time converting the ship from our current role to a humanitarian role. The brief was to be ready to accept around 1000 people who had lost everything and would have 1 suitcase each with all of their worldly possessions.
It is not only the ship that needs converting to a new role but also the crew.
Well...... Gibraltar and Beirut.... local area of operation. Not exactly half way around the planet is it? Would it have been sent from the U.K. to Eastern med? Possibly. Would it be sent from Portsmouth to Philipines.... nope.

We don’t send our carriers on purely humanitarian missions. We do divert if they are in the region of operations (as long as it doesn’t interfere with primary mission). And as long as it’s politically acceptable.....

We have sent vessels to the Caribbean islands when there was a hurricane. But not capital ships such as carriers. HMs ocean was sent from the med to the Caribbean a few years ago. If we really cared about humanitarian missions we wouldn’t have slyly decommissioned her when there was no active replacement available...... what a bad show that was.



Gazzas86

1,621 posts

135 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
we we're on our way home from a gulf trip on the Cumberland when Libya was kicking off, we had just popped out the top of the Suez, and shock horror we we're handed over and then diverted left to go save nationals in Benghazi. Just what you want at the end of a 6 month trip away.

Speculatore

1,998 posts

199 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
Speculatore said:
Ayahuasca said:
TTmonkey said:
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.
That makes sense. The RN won’t send a carrier to help with sudden humanitarian emergencies halfway around the world.... apart from anything else it needs weeks to put a task group together.
Not quite true. On Illustrious in 2007 we had just completed anti-piracy ops off Somalia and were on our way home when we stopped off in Gibraltar to pick up Dads and Lads (Referred to as PACAS - Parents and Children at Sea) for the trip back to Portsmouth. I was at the airport to meet my Brother and Nephew when I received a call from the Captain telling me to get beck onboard for a HODs meeting (Head of Department). We had been re-tasked to head back across the Med to assist in the evacuation of UK nationals from Beirut. We landed the PACAS people in to the good hands of the team at Gibraltar and steamed at 'Best Speed' back across the MED and at the same time converting the ship from our current role to a humanitarian role. The brief was to be ready to accept around 1000 people who had lost everything and would have 1 suitcase each with all of their worldly possessions.
It is not only the ship that needs converting to a new role but also the crew.
Well...... Gibraltar and Beirut.... local area of operation. Not exactly half way around the planet is it? Would it have been sent from the U.K. to Eastern med? Possibly. Would it be sent from Portsmouth to Philipines.... nope.

We don’t send our carriers on purely humanitarian missions. We do divert if they are in the region of operations (as long as it doesn’t interfere with primary mission). And as long as it’s politically acceptable.....

We have sent vessels to the Caribbean islands when there was a hurricane. But not capital ships such as carriers. HMs ocean was sent from the med to the Caribbean a few years ago. If we really cared about humanitarian missions we wouldn’t have slyly decommissioned her when there was no active replacement available...... what a bad show that was.
Good job they didn't have that attitude in 1982 when we were sent down to the Falklands. Plus having spent 15 of my 35 years service on carriers there are a number of occasion where we have been retasked at very short notice to carry out 'Non Fixed Wing' operations.

TTmonkey

16,846 posts

211 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Speculatore said:
TTmonkey said:
Speculatore said:
Ayahuasca said:
TTmonkey said:
This talk about humanitarian effort missions is a bit misleading. We don’t send our carriers away on humanitarian missions, we get involved if and when we happen to have one in the local area.

We helped out significantly after a Philippines typhoon event a few years ago. But only because we had an already planned mission out there. When places have typhoons we do t go into some ‘International rescue’ posture and mobilise the fleet from Portsmouth,

These are missions of opportunity only.
That makes sense. The RN won’t send a carrier to help with sudden humanitarian emergencies halfway around the world.... apart from anything else it needs weeks to put a task group together.
Not quite true. On Illustrious in 2007 we had just completed anti-piracy ops off Somalia and were on our way home when we stopped off in Gibraltar to pick up Dads and Lads (Referred to as PACAS - Parents and Children at Sea) for the trip back to Portsmouth. I was at the airport to meet my Brother and Nephew when I received a call from the Captain telling me to get beck onboard for a HODs meeting (Head of Department). We had been re-tasked to head back across the Med to assist in the evacuation of UK nationals from Beirut. We landed the PACAS people in to the good hands of the team at Gibraltar and steamed at 'Best Speed' back across the MED and at the same time converting the ship from our current role to a humanitarian role. The brief was to be ready to accept around 1000 people who had lost everything and would have 1 suitcase each with all of their worldly possessions.
It is not only the ship that needs converting to a new role but also the crew.
Well...... Gibraltar and Beirut.... local area of operation. Not exactly half way around the planet is it? Would it have been sent from the U.K. to Eastern med? Possibly. Would it be sent from Portsmouth to Philipines.... nope.

We don’t send our carriers on purely humanitarian missions. We do divert if they are in the region of operations (as long as it doesn’t interfere with primary mission). And as long as it’s politically acceptable.....

We have sent vessels to the Caribbean islands when there was a hurricane. But not capital ships such as carriers. HMs ocean was sent from the med to the Caribbean a few years ago. If we really cared about humanitarian missions we wouldn’t have slyly decommissioned her when there was no active replacement available...... what a bad show that was.
Good job they didn't have that attitude in 1982 when we were sent down to the Falklands. Plus having spent 15 of my 35 years service on carriers there are a number of occasion where we have been retasked at very short notice to carry out 'Non Fixed Wing' operations.
It’s was amazing they managed to task and send within 72 hours.

Almost like someone knew it was going to happen.... almost.... hehe

RizzoTheRat

20,478 posts

156 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
thewarlock said:
And Chinook.

But you'll quickly run out of places on board to put the people, unless your mission bay is empty/equipped for that particular task.
But that goes back to my earlier point, the frigate is just the support infrastructure for the helicopter. You'd have a civvy ship paired with it that would host the supplies and take the PAX.

And to reiterate, I'm not against the carriers, and for fighting and power projection there is no alternative.

But as we were talking humanitarian at the time, I think they're somewhat excessive (price and capability) for the mission.
A Frigate can't provide the support infrastructure for a chinook though, as they don't have a hanger big enough or the maintenance facilities. I assume they'd be able to refuel it but not a lot else. A Type 45 can fit one Merlin in the hanger, so you'd need to send a lot of them to match the lift capability of one carrier or LPH (although sending a carrier also means sending several frigates/destroyers too)

Speculatore

1,998 posts

199 months

Monday 1st February
quotequote all
TTmonkey said:
It’s was amazing they managed to task and send within 72 hours.

Almost like someone knew it was going to happen.... almost.... hehe
I can assure you that no one onboard had any idea that we would have ben sailing in a few days time to go to war. 2 thirds of the ships company were on Easter leave and we spent the whole weekend phoning people up telling them to get back... It just happened to be the 1st April so we had some interesting phone calls. I had my Easter leave in September when we got back. (SLIB for those that know).

Seight_Returns

1,431 posts

165 months

Tuesday 2nd February
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Type 26 will take Merlin
Apologies for the random off topic question - but since we've got people here who've actually been there and done that - someone once told me that the only way to get a Merlin into the hanger of a Type 23 was to let the tyres down so it would fit through the hanger door. Any truth in that ?