Massive train timetabling amendments
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
Political allegiances should not provide protection against sacking for incompetence.
Agreed.But, as alluded to by RS, what’s the chances of one incompetent being replaced by another?
Sure, you’ll get your sacking, the sacrifice you’re crying out for but I’m not sure what that would do to improve the service.
trickywoo said:
Why are driverless cars being pushed so hard when seemingly nothing is said about rail which would surely be much easier and bring greater benefits?
No drivers to worry about would benefit the rail network massively in this country.
Not sure about your first question but your final question has been covered soooooooooo many times on here already.No drivers to worry about would benefit the rail network massively in this country.
You’re not Boris posting under a pseudonym are you?
legzr1 said:
trickywoo said:
Why are driverless cars being pushed so hard when seemingly nothing is said about rail which would surely be much easier and bring greater benefits?
No drivers to worry about would benefit the rail network massively in this country.
Not sure about your first question but your final question has been covered soooooooooo many times on here already.No drivers to worry about would benefit the rail network massively in this country.
You’re not Boris posting under a pseudonym are you?
legzr1 said:
V8 Fettler said:
Political allegiances should not provide protection against sacking for incompetence.
Agreed.But, as alluded to by RS, what’s the chances of one incompetent being replaced by another?
Sure, you’ll get your sacking, the sacrifice you’re crying out for but I’m not sure what that would do to improve the service.
Whoever signed off the changes needs to clear his desk and go, he is clearly a liability.
V8 Fettler said:
Chrisgr31 said:
V8 Fettler said:
The new timetables should have been modelled and stress-tested to the nth degree. There should be a fallback in case it all goes wrong, the obvious fallback being the old timetables. Sackings are needed.
Falling back on the old timetable is not an option because it affects too many other trains. The problem with Thameslink is that it serves so many destinations meant there is a huge knock on impact. One of the timetabling issues was the electrification works up north not being completed. This affected the trains up north, which meant the times of those that had to be changed. This meant those trains were on different times on the West Coast, East Coast and Midland mainlines. This meant that Southern and Thameslink trains on these lines had to be re-timetabled. Also trains on South Eastern had to be timetabled around Thameslink trains so you cant just roll the timetable back. Different rolling stock has been introduced with different performance etc.I suspect a temporary timetable will be introduced from Monday which will just remove a whole load of trains. As the drivers get route and traction qualified then the trains will be added back in.
A big issue in my part of the world appears to have been caused by the canal link tunnel. Designed to allow trains on the Peterborough/Cambridge lines to go through London to Brighton. This was a problem that you used to solve by just walking to St Pancras from KGX...
Allegedly, not enough drivers are certified to drive that part of the track, meaning a pilot is having to jump in the cabs to get a train through. This can get better once the drivers are certified, but crucially, why implement the changes before they were ready? A delay would have been a far better option than this.
This image only shows half a story, note that some trains are just "Disappearing" from apps and signs.
Evidence continues to mount over who's fault all this is. This is a bit long winded but, for those who are interested, it is the report from a prospective parliamentary candidate for Hitchin and Harpenden following a meeting with GTR earlier this week:
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
PPC said:
"Today I met with the management of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) who run the trains to and from Harpenden. It was very interesting indeed and answered a lot of questions raised here. I have shared the concerns many of you have expressed in this group and via emails to me. So I thought I would share all the info I got and highlight the things I have pushed for. This is really just a summary.
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
As well as the subject of this thread there are a couple of things in there that should make some readers froth over their cornflakes...Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
I had to use the train last night for the first time in a while
What a complete farce that was. Had to get Horsham to Brighton, needing a stop at Three Bridges. Horsham train set off fine, one of the new 12 car Thameslink trains going to Peterborough.
But at Three Bridges, there was just nothing that was meant to be operating, and they instead seemed to delay everything, by 30+ minutes, meaning we instead got onto a different overcrowded train which then made extra stops, and changed at Haywards Heath onto an also delayed Gatwick Express route. The train we were due to get but didn't, then cancelled all stops after 3B down to Brighton to make up time, but no doubt only after lots of people were already on the train?
And to cap it off, they then cancelled the last train out of Brighton (though fortunately I had to get the earlier one to make my connection back to Horsham)
What a complete farce that was. Had to get Horsham to Brighton, needing a stop at Three Bridges. Horsham train set off fine, one of the new 12 car Thameslink trains going to Peterborough.
But at Three Bridges, there was just nothing that was meant to be operating, and they instead seemed to delay everything, by 30+ minutes, meaning we instead got onto a different overcrowded train which then made extra stops, and changed at Haywards Heath onto an also delayed Gatwick Express route. The train we were due to get but didn't, then cancelled all stops after 3B down to Brighton to make up time, but no doubt only after lots of people were already on the train?
And to cap it off, they then cancelled the last train out of Brighton (though fortunately I had to get the earlier one to make my connection back to Horsham)
I had to get from Sutton to Brighton for a meeting but decided to drive because the trains were being unreliable.
On Tuesday I had to get from Sutton to London Blackfriars and it was fine. The journey home, not so much. Even the station staff / info boards had no idea what train was on the platform. I nearly ended up in Dartford but got off before the train left.
On Tuesday I had to get from Sutton to London Blackfriars and it was fine. The journey home, not so much. Even the station staff / info boards had no idea what train was on the platform. I nearly ended up in Dartford but got off before the train left.
rs1952 said:
Evidence continues to mount over who's fault all this is. This is a bit long winded but, for those who are interested, it is the report from a prospective parliamentary candidate for Hitchin and Harpenden following a meeting with GTR earlier this week:
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
Lots of fine words there, does the quote say who is going to be sacked?PPC said:
"Today I met with the management of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) who run the trains to and from Harpenden. It was very interesting indeed and answered a lot of questions raised here. I have shared the concerns many of you have expressed in this group and via emails to me. So I thought I would share all the info I got and highlight the things I have pushed for. This is really just a summary.
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
As well as the subject of this thread there are a couple of things in there that should make some readers froth over their cornflakes...Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
rs1952 said:
Firstly, we'd better stop using the word "pilot" and use "conductor" instead
The problem of route and traction knowledge has arisen with the new timetable with so many trains going from Cambridge or Peterborough to Finsbury Park, then leaving the main line to Kings Cross and instead going under the Thames through Farringdon and Blackfriars to destinations such as Brighton.
Peterborough and Cambridge drivers have been driving to Kings Cross since the railway was built, but these new services going south of the river take them onto sections of track they aren't used to, so they need to gain experience of the route and sign it off to certify their knowledge of it. What is currently happening is that these drivers are gaining route knowledge whilst on the job, so to speak, and with a conductor in the cab who already signs the route..
Its also worth mentioning that "route knowledge" in railway terms means more than, say, "knowing the way somewhere" as you might do in a car or even when driving a bus or coach. It involves knowing everything about the route which, to name but a few, would be knowing the location of every signal, every gradient, every speed restriction, every stopping point at stations for trains of various lengths, and so on.
Ah I see, thank you! It's the new bit of route, that explains it all (I was scratching my head thinking "but Kings Cross is South of Finsbury Park, and he said they can't go south"). Sadly it also suggests the current mess isn't likely to get fixed anytime soon - I take it from your explanation that this "route knowledge" stuff isn't like flying an aircraft/car/bus/whatever where you maybe do it once under supervision then go on your own. Presumably it's a lengthy process and there are no simulators or similar to speed it up, all done in a real time labour intensive fashion?The problem of route and traction knowledge has arisen with the new timetable with so many trains going from Cambridge or Peterborough to Finsbury Park, then leaving the main line to Kings Cross and instead going under the Thames through Farringdon and Blackfriars to destinations such as Brighton.
Peterborough and Cambridge drivers have been driving to Kings Cross since the railway was built, but these new services going south of the river take them onto sections of track they aren't used to, so they need to gain experience of the route and sign it off to certify their knowledge of it. What is currently happening is that these drivers are gaining route knowledge whilst on the job, so to speak, and with a conductor in the cab who already signs the route..
Its also worth mentioning that "route knowledge" in railway terms means more than, say, "knowing the way somewhere" as you might do in a car or even when driving a bus or coach. It involves knowing everything about the route which, to name but a few, would be knowing the location of every signal, every gradient, every speed restriction, every stopping point at stations for trains of various lengths, and so on.
Edited by Flooble on Friday 1st June 19:40
Flooble said:
I take it from your explanation that this "route knowledge" stuff isn't like flying an aircraft/car/bus/whatever where you maybe do it once under supervision then go on your own. Presumably it's a lengthy process and there are no simulators or similar to speed it up, all done in a real time labour intensive fashion?
A lot depends on the route and the driver.Some drivers can pick it up within hours whereas others can take weeks.
Plain line, level, no crossings or major changes in speed, route diversions, loops, junctions etc is pretty simple.
Other routes with all of those with added issues such as changes in signalling systems can take far longer.
I’m not familiar with the area but guess it’s a rather intensive route and a quick couple of hours won’t cover it.
Some companies provide route learning material such as maps and video coverage of the route (and there’s always the sectional appendix which all drivers have - an official ‘map’ of the route bit it isn’t great).
The way I used to explain it to non-railway friends was to ask them to imagine a clear road that you know very well, every dip, every corner, every junction. You get a green light and are allowed to travel at 125mph.
Then the freezing fog decends - visibility now around 50M. Still got a green light. What speed do you travel at in those conditions?
V8 Fettler said:
rs1952 said:
Evidence continues to mount over who's fault all this is. This is a bit long winded but, for those who are interested, it is the report from a prospective parliamentary candidate for Hitchin and Harpenden following a meeting with GTR earlier this week:
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
Lots of fine words there, does the quote say who is going to be sacked?PPC said:
"Today I met with the management of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) who run the trains to and from Harpenden. It was very interesting indeed and answered a lot of questions raised here. I have shared the concerns many of you have expressed in this group and via emails to me. So I thought I would share all the info I got and highlight the things I have pushed for. This is really just a summary.
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
As well as the subject of this thread there are a couple of things in there that should make some readers froth over their cornflakes...Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
Chrisgr31 said:
V8 Fettler said:
rs1952 said:
Evidence continues to mount over who's fault all this is. This is a bit long winded but, for those who are interested, it is the report from a prospective parliamentary candidate for Hitchin and Harpenden following a meeting with GTR earlier this week:
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
Lots of fine words there, does the quote say who is going to be sacked?PPC said:
"Today I met with the management of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) who run the trains to and from Harpenden. It was very interesting indeed and answered a lot of questions raised here. I have shared the concerns many of you have expressed in this group and via emails to me. So I thought I would share all the info I got and highlight the things I have pushed for. This is really just a summary.
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
As well as the subject of this thread there are a couple of things in there that should make some readers froth over their cornflakes...Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden
So trying to be as concise as possible...
WHAT HAS GONE WRONG?
- The introduction of the new timetable has been badly implemented, Network Rail only supplied some key data to GTR 2 – 3 weeks ahead of the timetable introduction, rather than the minimum 12 weeks usually required. This has led to issues with routing and train pathing (exactly which trains go on which tracks & when)
- There has been a driver shortage, or more specifically a shortage of drivers with the right training. All drivers must be trained on the route and the train itself
- Training drivers on the class 700 has not been a major issue but training drivers on the route has been. The 'Canal Tunnel' – the one which links between Finsbury Park and St. Pancras was not made available in adequate time
- As a result of this GTR has been rushing to train drivers on the route but there simply was not enough time (remember drivers being trained are not driving trains elsewhere)
- To try to remedy the situation there has been a reliance on 'pilot' drivers who are trained driving the core section where before handing over to drivers who still require training for that section. There are not enough of them and this has led to the infamous 'operational incidents', an untrained driver will drive the southbound train to Finsbury Park, but will have to wait for a pilot driver to be available, driving a northbound train through the core to Finsbury park where they essentially swap. The time it can take if things don't all align could cause delays and cancellations.
- Driver trainers, and even Freight train drivers have been drafted in to help.
- The reduction of service at Harpenden is a direct result of the demands placed by DfT (Grayling/Johnson) and the current government. There were warnings that 'intermediate stops' like Harpenden would suffer significantly, and this was accepted but the plan was pushed ahead anyway as a result of the changes to East Midlands services (a government decision), which is why there was not a proper consultation at Harpenden.
HOW LONG WILL THIS SITUATION CONTINUE?
- The management are aware things have not gone well and are very sympathetic, indeed I met with one senior manager who himself commutes from Hertfordshire into London, so he is fully aware of the issues at the moment
- The management paid tribute to the station staff who are doing their best with a very bad situation, please remember the timetable and the current mess is not down to them.
- A timescale to when we can get back to a reliable service should become clear next week, but do not expect the service to improve significantly for some weeks yet (the exact timescale is not yet clear how long we are going to have to suffer this)
- A new timetable will be introduced which is a mix of the old timetable and the new. This means that there is much a potential to get some key services re-instated – the advice is to lobby DfT (ie Chris Grayling – Con & Jo Johnson – Con) very hard right away. The stronger the lobbying the more likely we are to get beneficial changes seems to be a case of who shouts loudest wins.
- It was pointed out that Oliver Heald (Con - NE Herts) has been very active in lobbying and has got concessions already.
TIMETABLE ISSUES
- CHILDCARE/ADDITIONAL TRAINS: I have highlighted the issue with childcare, and that there are key service requirements both morning and evening that allow parents to drop off and pick up children and work, and that these services make the difference between whether some parents can work or not. I have highlighted those key windows and there was a lot of interest and note taking at this point, so the message may have hit home – fingers crossed but keep the pressure up.
- I have asked for an investigation into whether certain services can make additional stops at Harpenden and it seems that this may be possible but more investigation is needed, but they will definitely look into it.
- OVERCROWDING, I was planning to raise this as an issue on both the trains and the platforms, but due to the ongoing situation it is very hard to determine the difference between overcrowding due to the timetable and overcrowding due to the muddled service at the moment. It is one to monitor for now, but I highlighted the concerns that the new timetable (had it actually worked out) would cause overcrowding.
TICKETS
- I raised the issues with the Carnet tickets, it was agreed that the ideal thing was for the Carnet package to be rolled into the 'Key' smartcard, avoiding issues with ticket gates and grumblings over filling in the relevant bit of the ticket. However it seems that DfT is not keen to make this change as potentially it could mean passengers would find more efficient (cheaper) ways to complete the journey. DfT does not want to lose any revenue. It could be argued that if people find a more cost effective way of travelling – they may travel more – thus increasing revenue. I pushed for the Carnet ticketing to be resolved as many freelancers and those with irregular working patterns benefit greatly from them (though I agreed that rolling them into the 'Key' smartcard would be the best solution)
DELAY REPAY
- I raised the issue that some people have had delay repay claims rejected because they have put in too many claims. It was agreed this was unacceptable and they will look to rectify the issue which may be down to an automated system.
FIRST CLASS
- On a semi fast or all stations Thameslink service First Class is always declassified. So if you are travelling on a non fast Thameslink train from Harpenden, all first class is declassified. This is not widely advertised.
- Permanently declassifying first class on all services is unrealistic, DfT would be extremely unlikely to approve it. While there is sympathy for the idea on shorter journeys (including Harpenden) it is not really workable as the same trains run to Cambridge, Bedford, Peterborough and Brighton where first class is in demand. It would be too complex to change the signage for each journey.
(signing off again)
Cllr Sam Collins
Liberal Democrats Parliamentary Candidate for Hitchin & Harpenden”
I hope that explains a lot of the problems that have affected both north and south of the river services.
The DfT don't want people finding out about cheaper fares because that would affect their revenue stream from the franchise
People are having their delay compensation claims turned down because they've claimed too often
It'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic reading some of the guesses and half-truths being suggested on here. I can assure you that in no way does any of the supposition come even close to the truth of how shambolic it is behind the scenes 
RS1952 quoted something that resonated earlier; essentially ask not how it can run so badly but how it can run as well as it does. Or in this case, at all
RS1952 quoted something that resonated earlier; essentially ask not how it can run so badly but how it can run as well as it does. Or in this case, at all
Well, arrived at Gordon hill last night to get a train into town, board shows it as 3 minutes late, no worries I guess. Then 1 minute later its suddenly 20 mins delayed - wtf it was due in ten? Seems a complete cluster - pity anyone with little option but to use it (we cabbed it over to Oakwood rather than risk spending half the night being f
ked around)
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