Tesla on fire: not good.

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Helicopter123

Original Poster:

8,831 posts

155 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-4451120...

Looks like a battery has ruptured? Violent flames.

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Another longer vid on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VtbBKnG97c

Looked a little tricky to get out of without burning your legs! I wonder if the owner had grounded the car on something recently and not realised the battery was damaged?

I wondered how long it'd be before the Tesla PR machine tells us that they catch fire a lot less on average than ICE cars so nothing to see here rofl

Edited by Blaster72 on Sunday 17th June 12:08

LandRoverManiac

402 posts

91 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Would've been even ironic if it were a Tesla X.....

I'll show myself out.

Joking aside, there have been a fair few of these 'isolated' incidents of BEVs going the way of the Hindenburg. I wouldn't fancy having to extricate myself from a crashed car in a hurry, much less one with a hefty amount of potential energy sitting under the floorpan that can cook off.

Is there not some way they can compartmentalize the battery packs in such a way to reduce the chances of explosive failure in an impact? Perhaps some kind of kill-switch fire suppression that isolates and floods the battery compartments with CO2 or some other inert gas?

Just theory crafting here.


hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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LandRoverManiac said:
Would've been even ironic if it were a Tesla X.....

I'll show myself out.

Joking aside, there have been a fair few of these 'isolated' incidents of BEVs going the way of the Hindenburg. I wouldn't fancy having to extricate myself from a crashed car in a hurry, much less one with a hefty amount of potential energy sitting under the floorpan that can cook off.

Is there not some way they can compartmentalize the battery packs in such a way to reduce the chances of explosive failure in an impact? Perhaps some kind of kill-switch fire suppression that isolates and floods the battery compartments with CO2 or some other inert gas?

Just theory crafting here.
wouldn't want to get knocked unconscious in one, would you?

What do the firefighters use to put these out then?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
LandRoverManiac said:
kind of kill-switch fire suppression that isolates and floods the battery compartments with CO2 or some other inert gas?

Just theory crafting here.
Wouldn't do a lot, lithium fires are one of the hardest fires to suppress once on fire, preventing them is only real plan of attack.

Helicopter123

Original Poster:

8,831 posts

155 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
Thesprucegoose said:
LandRoverManiac said:
kind of kill-switch fire suppression that isolates and floods the battery compartments with CO2 or some other inert gas?

Just theory crafting here.
Wouldn't do a lot, lithium fires are one of the hardest fires to suppress once on fire, preventing them is only real plan of attack.
Thinking back to schoolboy chemistry, doesn't Lithium combust when exposed to air? No need for a spark or anything else?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
As usual, one incident is taken by the detractors to provide sufficient evidence of a significant issue with EVs.

The thing about lithium battery fires is that whilst they are difficult to actually put put, they are, in the scale of things, pretty benign, and the heat release is slow and gradual.

If you were knocked unconscious in a crashed burning hydrocarbon powered car then you're just as dead as in a burning EV. In fact, because the heat release of burning liquid fuel tanks is:

1) Difficult to predict in terms of rate of release vs time
2) Being liquid the fire can spread VERY easily
3) Contains many more flammable systems and sources of ignition

on average an EV is significantly safer than for ICE powered vehicles. Sure they catch alight (just like numerous ICE's btw) but in the vast majority of cases the driver stops, the occupants get out, and receive little or no injury.



But hey, lets not let common sense get in the way of a "OH THE HORROR" story now shall we....... ;-)

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
hairyben said:
wouldn't want to get knocked unconscious in one, would you?

What do the firefighters use to put these out then?
Lots and lots of water and keeping it cooled for at least 24 hours to stop it self igniting again.

Some good info from Tesla here

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/download...

FIREFIGHTING
USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or
gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take approximately 3,000 gallons of water, applied directly to the battery,
to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request an additional water supply. If water is not immediately
available, use dry chemicals, CO2, foam, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available.

Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish. Consider allowing the battery to burn while protecting exposures.
After all fire and smoke has visibly subsided, a thermal imaging camera can be used to actively measure the temperature of the high
voltage battery and monitor the trend of heating or cooling. There must not be fire, smoke, or heating present in the high voltage
battery for at least one hour before the vehicle can be released to second responders (such as law enforcement, vehicle transporters,
etc.). The battery must be completely cooled before releasing the vehicle to second responders or otherwise leaving the incident.
Always advise second responders that there is a risk of battery re-ignition.
Due to potential re-ignition, a Model S that has been involved in a submersion, fire, or a collision that has compromised the high
voltage battery should be stored in an open area at least 50 ft (15 m) from any exposure.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
BTW, you can extinguish a lithium battery fire, but it requires the battery to be flooded with liquid nitrogen, liquid CO2 or liquid argon / Helium. Here the fire is extinguished primarily by the rapid reduction in temperature rather than the removal of the oxidiser.



(it''s also worth noting that a lot of fires occur with ICE's for two additional reasons:

1) the fuel is handled by the user, ie, you go to a filling station and pump 60 litres of highly flammable fuel into your car, without any training, or really any supervision. Numerous fuel station fires occur each year (generally fortunately with few injuries beyond minor burns)

2) ICE catch light when they have NO fault! The commonest car fire is a hot car (hot catalyst / exhaust) parked on dry grass or similar fuel source)

Pica-Pica

13,620 posts

83 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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This must push EVs back .. ooh another decade. Long live ICE

getmecoat

Buggyjam

539 posts

78 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Tesla on fire: not good

Sorry I’m confused. Oxymoron?

(Tin hat on) just kidding wink


hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
As usual, one incident is taken by the detractors to provide sufficient evidence of a significant issue with EVs.

The thing about lithium battery fires is that whilst they are difficult to actually put put, they are, in the scale of things, pretty benign, and the heat release is slow and gradual.

If you were knocked unconscious in a crashed burning hydrocarbon powered car then you're just as dead as in a burning EV. In fact, because the heat release of burning liquid fuel tanks is:

1) Difficult to predict in terms of rate of release vs time
2) Being liquid the fire can spread VERY easily
3) Contains many more flammable systems and sources of ignition

on average an EV is significantly safer than for ICE powered vehicles. Sure they catch alight (just like numerous ICE's btw) but in the vast majority of cases the driver stops, the occupants get out, and receive little or no injury.



But hey, lets not let common sense get in the way of a "OH THE HORROR" story now shall we....... ;-)
I wasn't trying to start an ev v ice war. I'm sure there's many threads already doing such, and as more evs are made and crashed we'll learn make whatever needs to be made better, better.

The battery does have its own unique and interesting risks though that any smart driver would do well to familiarise themselves with... looking at that video you wouldn't place too much hope on a passing have-a-go-hero to drag you out.

LandRoverManiac

402 posts

91 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
As usual, one incident is taken by the detractors to provide sufficient evidence of a significant issue with EVs.
On the contrary.

It isn't really one incident is it? The RIMAC catching on fire after being ham-fisted off a corner by Hammond was one incident. The Tesla that some family punted into a tree (bursting into flames) was an isolated incident. The incident linked is also isolated when viewed on it's own. This rather interesting list of fires are all isolated incidents...

https://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idA...

However you might notice a running theme with all of these isolated incidents. The destruction of the vehicle and injuries caused (if any) were because of the battery pack catastrophically failing - causing a rather vigorous / difficult fire to put out and/or an explosion.

While it isn't unforeseen - the presence of a large lithium battery pack in a vehicle is a safety issue that will become more acute as more people take up EVs. Far better to sort out these incidences now while a small percentage of the population is using them (and hence a proportionally smaller percentage of accidents involving them).

Otherwise, people will die as a direct result of their being in a battery vehicle that self-ignited, blew up or in some other way immolated itself in a high profile fashion in a way that a conventional vehicle doesn't tend to. The inevitable question will be 'What engineering solution would prevent/reduce this?'

Similar improvements to design had to be made regarding the integrity of the fuel cell in a petrol/diesel vehicle (cough - Pinto - cough) to the point that a fuel explosion is thankfully rare in the average RTC. I have a reasonable expectation (as do most) of not having my car blow me up on my commute to work this week if I happen to have a crunch - thanks in no small part to the degree to which a petrol tank is protected from external forces in such an accident.

Hence my perfectly legitimate question of some kind of onboard fire/spark/ignition supressing system that could detect an impact over a certain threshold (like airbags) and isolate the cells of the battery + flood them with some kind of medium that stops fire from breaking out.


EDITED TO ADD - Your views on EVs and my views on them are at opposite ends of the spectrum - we'll have to agree to disagree on that front.



Edited by LandRoverManiac on Sunday 17th June 16:09


Edited by LandRoverManiac on Sunday 17th June 16:18

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Not sure why the Renault Alpine is in there - it's a petrol engine car isn't it?

LandRoverManiac

402 posts

91 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Yep - Brain fart - ignore that one!


Seems to have been a lot of stuff catching fire in the news - Art galleries, cars, the lot.

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
Going back to your other question, Tesla's do have crash relays which can isolate the battery but the energy still remains in the battery just like fuel remains in a fuel tank.

The holy grail I guess is to produce a pack that self extinguishes or can't catch fire in the first place. Tricky considering the amount of energy and how densly its packed in there.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
er, you think that the EV manufacturers haven't done any engineering safety on battery fires or crash protection?

The simple fact is, so far (on data we have for modern EV's produced in around the last 15 years or so) a typical EV is around 6 to 8 times LESS likely to suffer a thermal event in it's lifetime than an ICE.

That is due to a combination of factors, from reduced user interface/handling of the "fuel", better crash protection for the battery, less ignition sources to start a fire after an accident, and more safety testing of battery cells, modules and packs, compared to an ICE vehicle development program.


Now of course, EVs do catch fire. That fire can be a result of a impact damage, flooding, or simple component failures, and of course, you can find pictures and video's of EVs burning. However, as i said above, actual studies show that they catch fire less than ICEs and are less likely to cause injury if they do

(question: how many people have been killed or injured by an EV fire in the last 15 years?)


People with closed minds say "how can you drive around in a car with load of batteries that can catch on fire" and then jump into their car which has maybe 60 liters (533 Kwh of energy, or 5 times that stored in the biggest Tesla battery) of fuel onboard,a ll of which can be pretty much instantly released if the storage tank is damaged.

The fact is you are "happy" with the risk of your ICE, and should be happy with the risk of an EV (being that it's less risky) and yet, you like to find things about EVs you don't like, and so are happy to ignore common sense and physics in order to make yourself feel better.

Fair enough, that's your choice, just don't expect me to join you in idiots corner quite yet...... ;-)


Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
There is a problem with the current attitude, whenever an EV catches fire the EVangelists jump in and try to deflect everything onto ICE cars and their statistics. Same goes for Tesla crashes, all good so long as they're statistically safer than human driven cars.

This thread is a good example, people are interested when Tesla's catch fire as they are different and the batteries in theory shouldn't self combust. Those blinkered enough try to shut down and reasonable conversation as to cause and prevention as they for some reason see any criticism of EV tech as a personall afront.

Maybe some improvement in safety will come out of this latest fire, this won't however happen if people just bury their heads in the sand and ICE car stats rather than looking at the cause.


anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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A good option would be able to dump the battery pack and move out the way.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
.......The thing about lithium battery fires is that whilst they are difficult to actually put put, they are, in the scale of things, pretty benign, and the heat release is slow and gradual.......
That’s reassuring.