RR Trent engine ion BBC 1 last night.

[Mojocvh]

Well it was okay ish. lots of mm and some interesting stuff.

[dudleybloke]

i want to get a job blowing up jet engines!

[chuntington101]

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

[chuntington101]

el stovey said:

chuntington101 said:

Also my dad worked on the Design team for the RB211, the predisesor to the trent engines and the first 3shaft jet engine. He worked on the T4 design.

You should be proud of him, the RB211 is a top engine. I took a large bird into one on rotation and it kept producing thrust despite three of the fan blades being badly damaged.

Oh i am dont you worry mate! just dont tell him i said that! lol

[ninja-lewis]

chuntington101 said:

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

Probably because there is little benefit for the cost of doing so in cars. Rolls Royce like to say their engines are worth their weight in silver. By comparison, a car is about worth it's weight in hamburgers.

[rhinochopig]

chuntington101 said:

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

Several reasons:

• Designed down to a price.
• Designed to meet emissions not for ultimate power - hyrbrid tech / fuel cell / etc. is pretty clever stuff when you look at what's involved in getting it all to work seamlessly.
• Planes are operated and maintained correctly (most of the time) - cars are driven by people with the IQ of a house plant and no mechanical sympathy
• Turbines aren't as clever as you think they are - it's just new tech to you, so seems that way.
• Steel is still one of the best materials to make cars out of - cheap, easily formed, easily repaired - so why bother with the complexities of composites when all it will do is increase costs.

The engines lotus have produced - I'm guessing you mean the solonoid valve engine rely on 24v electrics IIRC which isn't that reliable yet. Think of the nightmare toyota have had with proven tech. No one wants to introduce something too radical for fear of it failing.

[chuntington101]

rhinochopig said:

Several reasons:

• Designed down to a price.
• Designed to meet emissions not for ultimate power - hyrbrid tech / fuel cell / etc. is pretty clever stuff when you look at what's involved in getting it all to work seamlessly.
• Planes are operated and maintained correctly (most of the time) - cars are driven by people with the IQ of a house plant and no mechanical sympathy
• Turbines aren't as clever as you think they are - it's just new tech to you, so seems that way.
• Steel is still one of the best materials to make cars out of - cheap, easily formed, easily repaired - so why bother with the complexities of composites when all it will do is increase costs.

The engines lotus have produced - I'm guessing you mean the solonoid valve engine rely on 24v electrics IIRC which isn't that reliable yet. Think of the nightmare toyota have had with proven tech. No one wants to introduce something too radical for fear of it failing.

• Designed down to a price - fully understand that, but why should cost prohibit developemnt and ideas? one of the joys of engineering is making the impossable possialbe! ok to start it costs more, take H2 fuel cell cars, but one day it wont!

• Designed to meet emissions not for ultimate power - hyrbrid tech / fuel cell / etc. is pretty clever stuff when you look at what's involved in getting it all to work seamlessly. - now thats what im talking about! crazzy ideas that are MADE work! thats the thinking that the industry SHOULD be using all the time.

• Planes are operated and maintained correctly (most of the time) - cars are driven by people with the IQ of a house plant and no mechanical sympathy - then take the control off the user! its what you do with a works PC! design a system that ensure mechanical sympathy and you will have no problems. as fort he people that maintain the cars, well i cant argue that one with you! lol

• Turbines aren't as clever as you think they are - it's just new tech to you, so seems that way. - Turbine tech is VERY simple, thats one fo the atractions. Its not new tech to me at all!

• Steel is still one of the best materials to make cars out of - cheap, easily formed, easily repaired - so why bother with the complexities of composites when all it will do is increase costs. - well why bother trying to advance anything then? the simple fact is unless you TRY and test new materials how the hell will you KNOW that steel is the best? answer, you wont! and are steel body panels realy the best? what about platics? VERY strong, light weight, much less likely to damage (hard to perminently deform), CHEAP, Tech already avalaible, no rust, no painting, perfect finish..........

I was thinking more about the veriable compression engine lotus was working on. i didn;t know lotus was having issues with the solonoid valve engine. Its a shame.

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel here, just maybe move away from the round bit of stone with a hole in the middle to something that meets TOMORROWS needs better! and i was always told as a kid, if you dont ask questions you dont get the answers! I understand that cost is a massive burned on developemnt. But it such a waest of the talented people we have not to push the bondaries as far as we can.

Edited by chuntington101 on Wednesday 7th July 13:03

[5potTurbo]

Lost soul said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

they are , i loved the main engine shroud it starts off at 5 tons and they machine it down to 500kilos

Incredibly complex bits of kit

That was some piece of billet engineering (is that the correct term?)

Excellent programme. I thoroughly enjoyed that, as did Mrs.5PotTurbo. I had no idea of the lengths they go to to build and test these things.

British engineering at it's best?

[mcdjl]

chuntington101 said:

• Designed down to a price - fully understand that, but why should cost prohibit developemnt and ideas? one of the joys of engineering is making the impossable possialbe! ok to start it costs more, take H2 fuel cell cars, but one day it wont!

It shouldn't and it doesn't. However most of the random ideas that you like the sound of get dropped quietly as they're not worth it- that doesnt mean they arent in a lab somewhere

chuntington101 said:

• Designed to meet emissions not for ultimate power - hyrbrid tech / fuel cell / etc. is pretty clever stuff when you look at what's involved in getting it all to work seamlessly. - now thats what im talking about! crazzy ideas that are MADE work! thats the thinking that the industry SHOULD be using all the time.

They are...what do you think ECUs etc are or were once?

chuntington101 said:

• Planes are operated and maintained correctly (most of the time) - cars are driven by people with the IQ of a house plant and no mechanical sympathy - then take the control off the user! its what you do with a works PC! design a system that ensure mechanical sympathy and you will have no problems. as fort he people that maintain the cars, well i cant argue that one with you! lol

And then have every petrol head moaning that their car drives itself/won't let them have fun?

chuntington101 said:

• Steel is still one of the best materials to make cars out of - cheap, easily formed, easily repaired - so why bother with the complexities of composites when all it will do is increase costs. - well why bother trying to advance anything then? the simple fact is unless you TRY and test new materials how the hell will you KNOW that steel is the best? answer, you wont! and are steel body panels realy the best? what about platics? VERY strong, light weight, much less likely to damage (hard to perminently deform), CHEAP, Tech already avalaible, no rust, no painting, perfect finish..........

I want some of those plastic please (and so do some other people)
The problem with most of this is that using exotic materials (including some of these plastics which i know exist to some extent) increases costs by a large order, but with out performance increases to anything like a similar degree. This is why a super car capable of 180+mph costs 10x as much as normal car but doesn't go 10x as fast..or in other words cars using all this clever techology do exist...they're just out of the average punter price range.

[Markytop]

dudleybloke said:

i want to get a job blowing up jet engines!

I think there are some people in Afganistan who recruit for such jobs

Out of interest, do RR still do the testing to destruction at Hucknall? Remember as a kid living in the area used to hear them pushing the engines to limits, was always such a great noise.

[Lost soul]

chuntington101 said:

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

You re living in a dream world , the motor industry does use exotic alloys but it costs a lot of money , ok so how log does the 1750bhp mitsi last ? not very long i am sure

[chuntington101]

Markytop said:

dudleybloke said:

i want to get a job blowing up jet engines!

I think there are some people in Afganistan who recruit for such jobs

Out of interest, do RR still do the testing to destruction at Hucknall? Remember as a kid living in the area used to hear them pushing the engines to limits, was always such a great noise.

Ithink RR still have a test sie in hucknall. Im not a million miles from there.

[chuntington101]

Lost soul said:

chuntington101 said:

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

You re living in a dream world , the motor industry does use exotic alloys but it costs a lot of money , ok so how log does the 1750bhp mitsi last ? not very long i am sure

your totally missing the point! i understand the limitations the industry has, i would just like to see more inovations. Im not exspecting flying cars in the next 10yrs, i just want to know why no one is TRYING to develop them!!

[foilist]

From an engineering perspective, a turbine a pretty simple thing, so the way to make a better one is to look at exotic materials and innovative manufacturing methods: there's not much you can do with a spinning shaft with a fan on each end.

A car (or even just an internal combustion engine) is a much more complicated thing, so there's more advantage in looking at emproving other things rather than matierals: electronic controlled everything, forced induction, that sort of thing.

But there are innovations in materials: aluminium is used more and more (and bonded aluminium rather than welded or fastened) and the use of non metallic plastics and composites.

[Lost soul]

chuntington101 said:

Lost soul said:

chuntington101 said:

rhinochopig said:

chuntington101 said:

tank slapper said:

There is some seriously impressive engineering that goes into those engines. The turbine blades are works of art.

That is an understatment! lol each one is machined to something like 1/1000th mm. basically all are identical. and the way they are cast is unreal. grown form a single cristal of alloy into the whole blade. unreal.

and the Tig hand welled compresor side is just amazing. Bet they are better than you local exhaust fabricators! lol also they showed a test of what would happen if a fan blade can loose. suffice to say NOTHING let the engine casing at all! looks spectacular but soo controlled! also they showed a test of blasting goodness only knows how much water directly into the engine and it has to maintain the same amount of thrust as normal.

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

this level of engeering takes the P!SS out of the car industry! we are still drving around in cars with the same engine materials as 60yrs ago! where are the Ti components? where are the new alloys to lighten things up? where si the lelvel of detial that these things have?

Chris.

Don't be too hard on the car industry - very very different requirements and turbines are actually rather simple machines. Yes R-R engineering is impressive, but then so is engineering a car, which requires bringing together tens of thousands of individual parts to form a reliable working vehicle. R-R just make engines don't forget (well they have a surprisingly wide product range but my point is they don't build the aircraft as well)

Ex R-R engineer here.

i totlaly understand thatthese are two diffrent fields requiring two diffrent approaches. However why cant we have our cake and eat it? why cant the car industry push the limits more and more? Why cant we have speical alloyus devleoped for pistons, rods and cranks? the ideas ARE out there. theere is a tuning company in Greece that are building a 1750bhp Mitsubishi 4G63T engine (the engine form the EVO) using berilium pistons, Tatanium compersite rods, Rifile drileed TI camshafts, Ti crankshaft, custom machined 87++mm turbos, the list gose on! the knowlage is ther, so why cant we see it in cars today? why hasn't the car industry developed a compersite chassis that is cheap to manufacture and strong? why are we still using steel for everything?

I guess im just tired of seeing great ideas (just look at the test engines lotus have been devleoping over the last 10yrs) and then nothing happening with them.

Chris.

You re living in a dream world , the motor industry does use exotic alloys but it costs a lot of money , ok so how log does the 1750bhp mitsi last ? not very long i am sure

your totally missing the point! i understand the limitations the industry has, i would just like to see more inovations. Im not exspecting flying cars in the next 10yrs, i just want to know why no one is TRYING to develop them!!

I am not missing the point at all , i leave that to you

Listen we have reliable 500bhp cars that cost 60k how much do you want or need or more importantly how much are you prepared to pay , just because they do not push the limts does not mean they could not , its because people will not pay for it

[navier_stokes]

chuntington101 said:

Markytop said:

dudleybloke said:

i want to get a job blowing up jet engines!

I think there are some people in Afganistan who recruit for such jobs

Out of interest, do RR still do the testing to destruction at Hucknall? Remember as a kid living in the area used to hear them pushing the engines to limits, was always such a great noise.

Ithink RR still have a test sie in hucknall. Im not a million miles from there.

Nope, RR now do their FBO etc out on their test bed in Stennis.

[tonyvid]

Simpo Two said:

chuntington101 said:

my dad also told me they used to throw frozed chickens into them at full revs to test them. be intresting to see that. lol

The only story I know involving frozen chickens concerned the 'gun' they used to test aircraft windscreens against bird strikes. We used fresh chickens, then sent the gun to America. They reported that every windscreen broke - until it was discovered they were firing frozen chickens. Or maybe it's an urban myth, dunno.

When I worked at Hatfield we used to go and look at the Chook-gun that was on the edge of the woods...it used to really hum down there on a warm day as the place was sprayed with meaty-mush!


This has been a really interesting series - it's so much like an advert for British Engineering you can't help thinking the DTI(or whatever they are called) sponsered it!

[Condi]

What a daft argument, of course we are pushing the limits. We are pushing them where people are prepared to pay for it - motorsport, military vehicles, high end cars. Think about Ferrari and how much technology they transfer from their race cars to the road cars - and yet it still costs £100,000 for essentially something with 4 wheels and an engine. A £14,000 Focus gets you from A-B in roughly the same amount of time for 1/8th of the cost. If your prepared to stump up the readies you can have all sorts of the latest technology and toys to play with, but average Joe wants something reliable and cheap. Neither of which can be promised with latest technology Boron cam rods or Titanium doors.