Discussion
Some people in my office were just discussing wine.
After listening to a completely inane conversation going on for the last 30 minutes, I just have to have a little rant about this subject.
1) You're drinking fermented grape juice. So what you are tasting is... GRAPE. You're NOT tasting raspberry, freshly mown grass, violets, earth, mushrooms, etc. It's all GRAPE. End of.
2) There are only two types of wine. And I don't mean red and white. There's wine you can drink which doesn't taste unpleasant and gets you nicely tipsy. And there's wine which you can't drink and is only good for putting on your chips.
3) If a wine costs more than, say, a couple of quid a bottle - then you're paying for the label. Think about it... petrol is £1.20 a litre. To get petrol you have to explore under seabeds using seismic equipment, analyse the geological data, build an oil rig, drill for oil. If you find it (not guaranteed) then extract the oil, pipe it to land, refine it, etc etc. All of this is not cheap to do, and yet the price of petrol is less than a bottle of wine (and even then, most of the price of petrol is tax!) What do you have to do to get wine? plant some vines. Wait for grapes to grow. Pick them, crush them, store the juice, wait some more, bottle it, sell the wine. Hardly an expensive process...
Ok, rant over. Feel free to discuss...!
After listening to a completely inane conversation going on for the last 30 minutes, I just have to have a little rant about this subject.
1) You're drinking fermented grape juice. So what you are tasting is... GRAPE. You're NOT tasting raspberry, freshly mown grass, violets, earth, mushrooms, etc. It's all GRAPE. End of.
2) There are only two types of wine. And I don't mean red and white. There's wine you can drink which doesn't taste unpleasant and gets you nicely tipsy. And there's wine which you can't drink and is only good for putting on your chips.
3) If a wine costs more than, say, a couple of quid a bottle - then you're paying for the label. Think about it... petrol is £1.20 a litre. To get petrol you have to explore under seabeds using seismic equipment, analyse the geological data, build an oil rig, drill for oil. If you find it (not guaranteed) then extract the oil, pipe it to land, refine it, etc etc. All of this is not cheap to do, and yet the price of petrol is less than a bottle of wine (and even then, most of the price of petrol is tax!) What do you have to do to get wine? plant some vines. Wait for grapes to grow. Pick them, crush them, store the juice, wait some more, bottle it, sell the wine. Hardly an expensive process...
Ok, rant over. Feel free to discuss...!
calibrax said:
3) If a wine costs more than, say, a couple of quid a bottle - then you're paying for the label.
Wrong (to an extent).In my experience A £10 bottle is at least twice as good as a £5 bottle and a £50 bottle is at least twice as good as a £10 bottle.
It is a law of diminishing returns once you get to a point though. While I have never been fortunate enough to try a bottle of 1986 Petrus I seriously doubt its several times better than a wine costing £100 a bottle. It might be better but the improvement will be subtle.
You do pay for rarity of course. If a famous producer only makes a few thousand bottles a year then the price will reflect that.
Davey S2 said:
It is a law of diminishing returns once you get to a point though. While I have never been fortunate enough to try a bottle of 1986 Petrus I seriously doubt its several times better than a wine costing £100 a bottle. It might be better but the improvement will be subtle.
You do pay for rarity of course. If a famous producer only makes a few thousand bottles a year then the price will reflect that.
Spot on You do pay for rarity of course. If a famous producer only makes a few thousand bottles a year then the price will reflect that.
No doubt were the group of wine enthusiasts in your office listening to a conversation between you and some other petrolheads, their synopsis would be:
1. You are in a car, DRIVING. Not "kissing the apex", "making progress", "drifting in a beautifully controlled manner"
2. There are only two types of car. And I don't mean Petrol and Diesel. I mean s
tbox cars that are older than 5 years old, and decent new cars.
3. If a car costs more than, say, £8,000, then you are paying for the name. Think about it - a Kia Ceed costs about £8000 and it starts and stops and goes round corners. A Rolls Royce is just a Kia Ceed with some wood on the dashboard. How much more can that wood really cost?
For what its worth, if you don't really like wine, you'll never really spot the difference between a good one and a bad one. But I will offer you a challenge which will only cost you a tenner. Go to Sainsburys or wherever and buy a bottle of Oyster Bay Sauvignon Blanc:
It's a decent, mass produced wine, better than average.
Then spend what is left from your tenner (normally about £2-3) on another bottle of Sauvignon Blanc.
If you can't taste the superiority of the Oyster Bay then either you will never get wine or you have stumbled upon a gem of a cheap bottle, in which case let me know so I can bulk buy some
1. You are in a car, DRIVING. Not "kissing the apex", "making progress", "drifting in a beautifully controlled manner"
2. There are only two types of car. And I don't mean Petrol and Diesel. I mean s
tbox cars that are older than 5 years old, and decent new cars. 3. If a car costs more than, say, £8,000, then you are paying for the name. Think about it - a Kia Ceed costs about £8000 and it starts and stops and goes round corners. A Rolls Royce is just a Kia Ceed with some wood on the dashboard. How much more can that wood really cost?
For what its worth, if you don't really like wine, you'll never really spot the difference between a good one and a bad one. But I will offer you a challenge which will only cost you a tenner. Go to Sainsburys or wherever and buy a bottle of Oyster Bay Sauvignon Blanc:
It's a decent, mass produced wine, better than average.
Then spend what is left from your tenner (normally about £2-3) on another bottle of Sauvignon Blanc.
If you can't taste the superiority of the Oyster Bay then either you will never get wine or you have stumbled upon a gem of a cheap bottle, in which case let me know so I can bulk buy some
Davey S2 said:
In my experience A £10 bottle is at least twice as good as a £5 bottle and a £50 bottle is at least twice as good as a £10 bottle.
So if a wine producer puts wine in one bottle priced at £5 and puts a pretty much identical wine in a different bottle priced at £50 (and I can guarantee that kinda thing does happen - there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there!) does the more expensive one suddenly becomes 4 times as good? Surely there's a massive placebo effect, i.e. your brain telling you "this is more expensive so it must taste better", and therefore it does?This doesn't only apply to wine of course but to pretty much anything you can buy these days...
miniman said:
No doubt were the group of wine enthusiasts in your office listening to a conversation between you and some other petrolheads... *snip*
Yep, fair point indeed. You're right, I don't get the whole "wine" thing (or the "coffee" thing for that matter), because I don't drink wine (or coffee). But I'm passionate about cars and also about meat (steaks in particular), so I can understand how it is.Puggit said:
miniman said:
Then spend what is left from your tenner (normally about £2-3) on another bottle of Sauvignon Blanc.
You'd struggle to get a bottle of Sauv Blanc for £2-£3, even in France!£3.22
Now it is probably rotten, but that would prove the point nicely
Well after two weeks in the Middle East I can't personally wait to get home and "waste" £30 on a bottle of whatever takes my fancy. In fact, I think I will buy two.
As for tasting of blackcurrants, mushrooms and walnuts or whatever.....I do hope so, and I also hope it gets me really pissed. Best part of the week for me is a decent bottle of red on a Friday night, nice dinner and then slump on the sofa with the missus.
As for tasting of blackcurrants, mushrooms and walnuts or whatever.....I do hope so, and I also hope it gets me really pissed. Best part of the week for me is a decent bottle of red on a Friday night, nice dinner and then slump on the sofa with the missus.
calibrax said:
Some people in my office were just discussing wine.
After listening to a completely inane conversation going on for the last 30 minutes, I just have to have a little rant about this subject.
1) You're drinking fermented grape juice. So what you are tasting is... GRAPE. You're NOT tasting raspberry, freshly mown grass, violets, earth, mushrooms, etc. It's all GRAPE. End of.
2) There are only two types of wine. And I don't mean red and white. There's wine you can drink which doesn't taste unpleasant and gets you nicely tipsy. And there's wine which you can't drink and is only good for putting on your chips.
3) If a wine costs more than, say, a couple of quid a bottle - then you're paying for the label. Think about it... petrol is £1.20 a litre. To get petrol you have to explore under seabeds using seismic equipment, analyse the geological data, build an oil rig, drill for oil. If you find it (not guaranteed) then extract the oil, pipe it to land, refine it, etc etc. All of this is not cheap to do, and yet the price of petrol is less than a bottle of wine (and even then, most of the price of petrol is tax!) What do you have to do to get wine? plant some vines. Wait for grapes to grow. Pick them, crush them, store the juice, wait some more, bottle it, sell the wine. Hardly an expensive process...
Ok, rant over. Feel free to discuss...!
May I ask what your tipple is?After listening to a completely inane conversation going on for the last 30 minutes, I just have to have a little rant about this subject.
1) You're drinking fermented grape juice. So what you are tasting is... GRAPE. You're NOT tasting raspberry, freshly mown grass, violets, earth, mushrooms, etc. It's all GRAPE. End of.
2) There are only two types of wine. And I don't mean red and white. There's wine you can drink which doesn't taste unpleasant and gets you nicely tipsy. And there's wine which you can't drink and is only good for putting on your chips.
3) If a wine costs more than, say, a couple of quid a bottle - then you're paying for the label. Think about it... petrol is £1.20 a litre. To get petrol you have to explore under seabeds using seismic equipment, analyse the geological data, build an oil rig, drill for oil. If you find it (not guaranteed) then extract the oil, pipe it to land, refine it, etc etc. All of this is not cheap to do, and yet the price of petrol is less than a bottle of wine (and even then, most of the price of petrol is tax!) What do you have to do to get wine? plant some vines. Wait for grapes to grow. Pick them, crush them, store the juice, wait some more, bottle it, sell the wine. Hardly an expensive process...
Ok, rant over. Feel free to discuss...!
Edited by MonkeyMatt on Tuesday 23 March 20:24
Of course there is a law of diminishing returns, and there are excellent cheaper wines around. However, suggesting that they are much the same is not my experience. I have spent a lot of time many of the vineyards I buy from, and the amount of care a winemaker puts into a premium wine is often astounding. Man of these wines are effectively handmade, and yields from the vines are cut way back to ensure great quality. The cost of land in good wine growing locations is huge and that has to be passed on.
You can certainly taste the difference in a great wine and an average one. Obviously, not all expensive wines are great, and an off year is an off year. I had a very mundane 1997 Ch.Margaux recently. I knew it would not be much for ageing so I gave it a shot. Many great wines are designed to age, while the majority are designed for immediate consumption. A properly cellared wine from a good vintage epays you because if you drink the case over years or decades, each bottle will be different. Equally I have had wonderful wines from unknown makers, especially when new areas or vineyards open up. However, if a really good wine emerges, its a fair bet that its price will rise significantly over successive vintages.
I agree with the earlier post about this being like cars. How many threads have we seen about Porsches being worth the money?..then answer is that its what people are willing to pay. There is no "should" in wine. My wife thinks its all garbage, and thats fair enough by me. If you really enjoy a great wine than you will pay for it. If not, there are lots of appropriate options.
You can certainly taste the difference in a great wine and an average one. Obviously, not all expensive wines are great, and an off year is an off year. I had a very mundane 1997 Ch.Margaux recently. I knew it would not be much for ageing so I gave it a shot. Many great wines are designed to age, while the majority are designed for immediate consumption. A properly cellared wine from a good vintage epays you because if you drink the case over years or decades, each bottle will be different. Equally I have had wonderful wines from unknown makers, especially when new areas or vineyards open up. However, if a really good wine emerges, its a fair bet that its price will rise significantly over successive vintages.
I agree with the earlier post about this being like cars. How many threads have we seen about Porsches being worth the money?..then answer is that its what people are willing to pay. There is no "should" in wine. My wife thinks its all garbage, and thats fair enough by me. If you really enjoy a great wine than you will pay for it. If not, there are lots of appropriate options.
I've been lucky in that since my father was a wine enthusiast, I've had the opportunity to sample the world's greatest wines.
It's in the genes: he gave me some Faiveley Nuits-St-Georges on the end of his finger when I was a 6-month old babba, and I'm told that I smiled.
The true greats are light years away from what most people would think of as a daily - or even weekly tipple - however are they worth the money? On occasion, yes, I think they are.
It's in the genes: he gave me some Faiveley Nuits-St-Georges on the end of his finger when I was a 6-month old babba, and I'm told that I smiled.
The true greats are light years away from what most people would think of as a daily - or even weekly tipple - however are they worth the money? On occasion, yes, I think they are.
calibrax said:
MonkeyMatt said:
May I ask what your tipple is?
I'm not really a drinker... I normally have a glass of champagne with xmas dinner, and on those rare occasions when I do have a drink when out it would be a lager/pils, or vodka & coke. I usually have soft drinks or water.t and you can get amzing beer that costs over £10 a bottle! and of course there is plenty in between! they all use the same basic ingredients Hops, malt (wheat, barley) and yeast but taste very different depending on the way they are made, as with wine!calibrax said:
MonkeyMatt said:
May I ask what your tipple is?
I'm not really a drinker... I normally have a glass of champagne with xmas dinner, and on those rare occasions when I do have a drink when out it would be a lager/pils, or vodka & coke. I usually have soft drinks or water.If you drank wine regularly you would be able to tell the difference between a really good wine and an average or bad wine straight away.
I've had £30 bottles of wine that I didnt think were that great compared to some £10 bottles. As with everything though you generally get what you pay for.
Same applies with food. If you only ever eat out in a Harvester restaurant then you probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference between a 1 Michelin star restaurant and a 3 star restaurant.
calibrax said:
So if a wine producer puts wine in one bottle priced at £5 and puts a pretty much identical wine in a different bottle priced at £50 (and I can guarantee that kinda thing does happen - there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there!)
You seem extremely well informed about the wine trade - I mean what with not drinking the stuff and seemingly knowingall about it
I suspect you probably know even far more than me - despite my 25 years in the wine trade.
Bebs said:
calibrax said:
So if a wine producer puts wine in one bottle priced at £5 and puts a pretty much identical wine in a different bottle priced at £50 (and I can guarantee that kinda thing does happen - there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there!)
You seem extremely well informed about the wine trade - I mean what with not drinking the stuff and seemingly knowingall about it
I suspect you probably know even far more than me - despite my 25 years in the wine trade.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8520980....
But regardless... as an accountant I know a lot about business, and there are people in every business who will try and rip people off in one way or another. And if you don't believe that then you're living in a dream world!
Edited by calibrax on Wednesday 24th March 10:48
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