MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

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Discussion

Wingo

212 posts

118 months

Wednesday 6th November
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MRichards99 said:
I've been looking into grass roots motorsports over the past few weeks - I read about this change and wasn't too sure what it meant.

The whole autosolo thing appealed to me as it seemed like (but correct me if I'm wrong cause it's quite complicated as a newcomer!) I could compete in a couple of these events to get a feel for it without the need to buy all the correct helmets, racesuits, gloves etc. I have a helmet for trackdays but it's not the correct spec for non-race national B (for sprinting etc.) and I don't want to spend on all the safety equipment if I realise I don't want to continue (for whatever reason). Will competitors of autosolos etc still get away without the need of the safety equipment?

As seems to be common opinion, it seems as if this change will make things more complicated for newbies. Perhaps MSUK just haven't published enough information about this yet - googling of 'MSUK Clubmans RS' yields this thread as the top result...
The safety equipment side isn't changing at the moment.

Its the licensing side that is changing along with an approximate doubling of permit fees.

Kraken

1,232 posts

147 months

carl_w

6,301 posts

205 months

Wednesday 6th November
quotequote all
MRichards99 said:
As seems to be common opinion, it seems as if this change will make things more complicated for newbies. Perhaps MSUK just haven't published enough information about this yet - googling of 'MSUK Clubmans RS' yields this thread as the top result...
Can't see it being more complex. I think they will have the free licence application forms at signing on so you'll just need to turn up with your club card and (presumably) a photo.

Allan L

442 posts

52 months

Thursday 7th November
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Just to show how the Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Assiciation (t/a Motor Sport UK) are determined to destroy entry level motor sport, passengers are also to be required to have the "RS Clubman" Licence.
That means Navigators on rallies, and bouncers on trials who sometimes need to be recruited at the last minute which has always been possible.

I have sent a strongly worded e-mail of protest to them and I recommend everyone affected to do so too. I have had the usual anodyne response "Thank you for taking the time to send us your feedback. It is extremely important to us and we will reply to you in full over the next few days."

Note the use of the phrase "is extremely important to us" normally found in telephone holding queue messages!

Dynion Araf Uchaf

2,281 posts

170 months

Thursday 7th November
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I've just finished watching the MUK video announcement one this and read up on the new types of licences.

First thoughts are - I like it.

No more medicals until you are 60, which is massively convenient to me as I am 46 in January - so I win on that rule change.

The day licence clubman RS thing is not a real problem, it just a change that yet again the old boys in the motor clubs want to resist. I think it'll make almost no difference to participation as will the cost hike increase for permits. In any case it is absolutely right that MUK increase the numbers on the books, even if in real terms there is not an actual increase in participants. MUK representing 100k members is better in any ongoing environmental or political negotiation than 50k members. I think next up there should be a day licence clubman RS for trackdayers, but this should include a once a year free, downloadable knowledge test on flags and trackdaying etiquette. That might boost numbers to 125k.

I genuinely can't see the issue in a £5 increase in permit fees, on the overall cost of the day it is nothing, whilst the entry fee may double, all the other costs remain the same. Even the lowliest auto test would probably cost £50 in total to compete in once you factor in travel fuel, competition fuel, sandwiches and everything else.

that's not to say that the MUK couldn't improve other aspects, such as lifing of safety equipment such as fire ex, or belts. I'd also like to see a more modern approach to scrutineering where all cars have a log book and the details of which are held centrally so that you can be scrutineered via the entry form rather than turning up a 730am to have your car poked about a bit.


Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Thursday 7th November 20:50

velocemitch

Original Poster:

2,733 posts

167 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
I've just finished watching the MUK video announcement one this and read up on the new types of licences.

First thoughts are - I like it.

No more medicals until you are 60, which is massively convenient to me as I am 46 in January - so I win on that rule change.

The day licence clubman RS thing is not a real problem, it just a change that yet again the old boys in the motor clubs want to resist........

I genuinely can't see the issue in a £5 increase in permit fees, on the overall cost of the day it is nothing, whilst the entry fee may double, all the other costs remain the same. Even the lowliest auto test would probably cost £50 in total to compete in once you factor in travel fuel, competition fuel, sandwiches and everything else.

that's not to say that the MUK couldn't improve other aspects, such as lifing of safety equipment such as fire ex, or belts. I'd also like to see a more modern approach to scrutineering where all cars have a log book and the details of which are held centrally so that you can be scrutineered via the entry form rather than turning up a 730am to have your car poked about a bit.


Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Thursday 7th November 20:50
Well I might be counted as one of the old boys in the motor club, but clearly you aren’t quite seeing this from the same angle as me.

The £5.00 additional permit fee will more than double the fee currently paid by our club for each competitor on our club night events. We run about 10 to 12 events a year and we have been getting roughly 20 entrants, our entry fee is £12.00, it doesn’t quite cover costs if we add in the cost of the Trophies for class winners. We accept we will make a slight loss subsidised by other club activities, our two Motor Cycle Trials being the most ‘profitable’. Adding the £5.00 will mean we have to pass that on, so the entry fee will rise.
We did the calculation, if we don’t pass on the extra £5 at the end of the year the club will loose just over £1700.00 from this rise alone.

As I pointed out to our friends in the letter I wrote MSUk today, £5:00 is a tiny amount relative to the cost of a days circuit racing, I’m not even going to try and work out the percentage. As you might see from the figures above £5:00 is a massive increase when applied to a car trial permit, in fact its more than 100%. This is from an organisation which is supposed to be committed to grass roots motor sport.


Then there’s the situation with RS licences, many of our club members are getting on a bit now, over 60, and often on a cocktail of drugs which are fine to drive their cars on the public road, but probably not fine to even sit as a passenger in a field as someone drives them up a grass bank, when they fill in the declaration.

Or there’s the ones that want to try and encourage friends or family members to come out and have a play in the cars for a cheap bit of motorsport, they are going to have to bring a licence along now. Or more probably a filled in form and a photograph and leave it up to somebody on one of the hard pressed organising teams to send of for them.

Time will tell how this will actually pan out, but I can be pretty sure we will see a decline in our entries for events, just at a time when we are at the tipping point of having to scrub many for various reasons.

Wingo

212 posts

118 months

Thursday 7th November
quotequote all
I don't know if you have ever competed in a clubbie autotest or car trial that gives you a good few hours Motorsport for entry fees as little as a tenner. I'd say other costs maybe add £15. The doubling of the permit fees represents a significant increase at this level.
Myself and the other Motor club "old boys" at my local club organise and/or compete on these events every month, we have a wide age range of competitors from 14 years upwards. Many cars are shared.
So while its good for some that the changes are going to save money that is not the case for everyone, certainly not for those on the lower steps of the Motorsport ladder.








Dynion Araf Uchaf

2,281 posts

170 months

Friday 8th November
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velocemitch said:
Well I might be counted as one of the old boys in the motor club, but clearly you aren’t quite seeing this from the same angle as me.

The £5.00 additional permit fee will more than double the fee currently paid by our club for each competitor on our club night events. We run about 10 to 12 events a year and we have been getting roughly 20 entrants, our entry fee is £12.00, it doesn’t quite cover costs if we add in the cost of the Trophies for class winners. We accept we will make a slight loss subsidised by other club activities, our two Motor Cycle Trials being the most ‘profitable’. Adding the £5.00 will mean we have to pass that on, so the entry fee will rise.
We did the calculation, if we don’t pass on the extra £5 at the end of the year the club will loose just over £1700.00 from this rise alone.

As I pointed out to our friends in the letter I wrote MSUk today, £5:00 is a tiny amount relative to the cost of a days circuit racing, I’m not even going to try and work out the percentage. As you might see from the figures above £5:00 is a massive increase when applied to a car trial permit, in fact its more than 100%. This is from an organisation which is supposed to be committed to grass roots motor sport.


Then there’s the situation with RS licences, many of our club members are getting on a bit now, over 60, and often on a cocktail of drugs which are fine to drive their cars on the public road, but probably not fine to even sit as a passenger in a field as someone drives them up a grass bank, when they fill in the declaration.

Or there’s the ones that want to try and encourage friends or family members to come out and have a play in the cars for a cheap bit of motorsport, they are going to have to bring a licence along now. Or more probably a filled in form and a photograph and leave it up to somebody on one of the hard pressed organising teams to send of for them.

Time will tell how this will actually pan out, but I can be pretty sure we will see a decline in our entries for events, just at a time when we are at the tipping point of having to scrub many for various reasons.
I'm not convinced your arguments are valid, and it appears that this change is not something that motor clubs want to embrace. My beef with motor clubs ( having been on the committee of one in the past) is that they are not entrepreneurial enough. If you have to add a fiver to the permit fee for a club night, make it £8 and provide some vol au vents or afree pint at the bar. You have to look and see how you can add more value to the club night. The sense I get from motor clubs is that they are almost apologetic for organising a competition. In most sports you have to pay to play - if you want to play squash for example you have to hire the court, which is £10 per hour. So you might be asking some to now pay £20 for an evenings activity. When looked at like that it is not bad value.

In any case, correctly handled I don't see a problem with asking family members to sign a form to allow them to compete. I am also not sure about your point about older club members and their health issues, I don't see any reference to medicals for the club rs licence?

Kraken

1,232 posts

147 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Looking around the web it does seem that it's one sector of the sport that is getting upset about the increases even though they are tiny in real terms. It might be almost doubling a fee but double not a lot is still not a lot. I don't believe for one second that someone doing these events is really going to have a problem finding that extra bit of money.

As said above I don't know what the medical conditions have to do with it. There's been no mention of a medical with the RS license in anything that I've seen released from MSUK.

One other point from the recent posts. MSUK doubled the life of FIA belts recently but a lot of people don't seem to have spotted that going by the number of belts "out of life" that I've seen up for sale recently.

Trev450

5,788 posts

119 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Kraken said:
One other point from the recent posts. MSUK doubled the life of FIA belts recently but a lot of people don't seem to have spotted that going by the number of belts "out of life" that I've seen up for sale recently.
Apologies for going off-topic but can you point me towards where I can find some 'out of life' harnesses for sale.

Drumroll

1,521 posts

67 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Wingo said:
I don't know if you have ever competed in a clubbie autotest or car trial that gives you a good few hours Motorsport for entry fees as little as a tenner. I'd say other costs maybe add £15. The doubling of the permit fees represents a significant increase at this level.
Myself and the other Motor club "old boys" at my local club organise and/or compete on these events every month, we have a wide age range of competitors from 14 years upwards. Many cars are shared.
So while its good for some that the changes are going to save money that is not the case for everyone, certainly not for those on the lower steps of the Motorsport ladder.
Yet it will still be "cheap" motorsport if you want to spectate on the RAC rally it will cost you £25 a car (Saturday or Sunday). A weekend pass to watch BTCC will cost upwards of £40

As has already been pointed out insurance costs have risen considerably. So the counter argument is why should other "branches" of the sport subsidise your events?

Altrezia

8,362 posts

158 months

Friday 8th November
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It's the cost of a pint in london, and a small form to fill in.

Hardly killing club motorsport.

Wingo

212 posts

118 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
Yet it will still be "cheap" motorsport if you want to spectate on the RAC rally it will cost you £25 a car (Saturday or Sunday). A weekend pass to watch BTCC will cost upwards of £40

As has already been pointed out insurance costs have risen considerably. So the counter argument is why should other "branches" of the sport subsidise your events?
Comparing spectating costs with competing costs?

I'm very interested in the thinking that leads you to believe bigger events permit and insurance fees subsidise what you see as my grassroots motorsport? Or do you think that MSUK gets the gate money that subsidises my grass roots motorsport?

I've competed at, spectated at and helped at all levels of motorsport over the years.
I currently put effort into encouraging youngsters into grass roots, very low cost motorsport at a club level. Some of these youngsters may well progress on to bigger and better things, that a good thing.
But equally finances may dictate they just enjoy the cheap motorsport for a few years or many years to come, thats also a good thing.

Just what are we getting back for the doubling of permit fees? A licence we don't currently need, 10% off at halfords, more insurance we don't need?

Yes it may only be £5 per entry but that's going to cost many I know upwards of £60 per year, for many lads & dads, daughters and dads etc, who share cars, upwards of £120.

Furthermore the volunteers who put on these events are getting more paperwork to do and collect even more money for MSUK, tell me what they are getting back?

The local motor clubs support this motorsport, they take the hit if the entry fees don't cover the little they are left out of the entry fee once MSUK take their cut and the venue owner is kept happy.

If any give up as a direct result of these changes or just do fewer grass roots event the changes will be conterproductive.













velocemitch

Original Poster:

2,733 posts

167 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Just as an aside and to give people a feeling of how the anger is bubbling within the clubs.

There used to be a group of MSA 'officials' which ran the 'Go Motorsport' initiative, their brief was to boost grass roots motorsport and they were working quite hard towards it and making some headway. For no apparent reason MSUK stopped it about three months ago and ended the contract with those individuals, to the surprise of those involved, nothing replaced it.

On a more local level, Hugh Chambers attended our area association meeting in October, he was full of encouraging remarks about how he was instigating new ideas that were specifically targeting the growth of grass roots to bring new blood, particularly young blood into the sport. It left those in attendance in a really optimistic mood.

Roughly a week later this happens, which appears to be the direct opposite of what was discussed. I know we are not the only club who are very disappointed about this, I also know that practically every other club in the area have written to MSUK mostly via the area association and I know that the Chairman of that association spent pretty much the whole day fending off phone calls and emails and talking direct to MSUK. Some clubs have stated it may be the end for them as the type of event they have been running will probably suffer quite badly. Some of the bigger clubs (the 4x4 guys for instance) have served notice upon MSUK that they will be leaving their umbrella and going their own way. They do have the legal right to run events without MSUK, but not many organisations do.

Do not underestimate how much this has annoyed and disenfranchised many people within the organising levels of the sport.

Dan BSCS

932 posts

183 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Kraken said:
One other point from the recent posts. MSUK doubled the life of FIA belts recently but a lot of people don't seem to have spotted that going by the number of belts "out of life" that I've seen up for sale recently.
That’s because they have only extended the life of FIA 2016 spec belts (of which none will have reached their original 5 year life yet) and not extended the life of the previous standard, which are the ones you are seeing for sale.

Drumroll

1,521 posts

67 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Wingo said:
Drumroll said:
Yet it will still be "cheap" motorsport if you want to spectate on the RAC rally it will cost you £25 a car (Saturday or Sunday). A weekend pass to watch BTCC will cost upwards of £40

As has already been pointed out insurance costs have risen considerably. So the counter argument is why should other "branches" of the sport subsidise your events?
Comparing spectating costs with competing costs?

I'm very interested in the thinking that leads you to believe bigger events permit and insurance fees subsidise what you see as my grassroots motorsport? Or do you think that MSUK gets the gate money that subsidises my grass roots motorsport?

I've competed at, spectated at and helped at all levels of motorsport over the years.
I currently put effort into encouraging youngsters into grass roots, very low cost motorsport at a club level. Some of these youngsters may well progress on to bigger and better things, that a good thing.
But equally finances may dictate they just enjoy the cheap motorsport for a few years or many years to come, thats also a good thing.

Just what are we getting back for the doubling of permit fees? A licence we don't currently need, 10% off at halfords, more insurance we don't need?

Yes it may only be £5 per entry but that's going to cost many I know upwards of £60 per year, for many lads & dads, daughters and dads etc, who share cars, upwards of £120.

Furthermore the volunteers who put on these events are getting more paperwork to do and collect even more money for MSUK, tell me what they are getting back?

The local motor clubs support this motorsport, they take the hit if the entry fees don't cover the little they are left out of the entry fee once MSUK take their cut and the venue owner is kept happy.

If any give up as a direct result of these changes or just do fewer grass roots event the changes will be conterproductive.
One of the points I was trying to make that even if you go and spectate at an event it will cost you money. You moan about insurance costs, but insurance premiums have gone up, fact. So everyone has to pay more. If you think your Autotest etc. Shouldn't pay more then in effect you are expecting other "branches" of the sport to pay more.

Have you thought that maybe one of the reasons of wanting everyone to have a licence is so when negotiations go on with insurance company's etc MUK can say we have x number of competitors, but have only had y number of claims. The x being greatly increased by everyone having to have a licence.

I may even apply for one. "Just in case' what's the problem with other people doing that?
Could easily be part of club membership.


DelicaL400

285 posts

58 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
I may even apply for one. "Just in case' what's the problem with other people doing that?

Because if 8 million folk apply for the free licence then there'll either be a charge for it the year after or clubs will get shafted even more on fees. MSUK do nowt for free.

Drumroll

1,521 posts

67 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
DelicaL400 said:
Because if 8 million folk apply for the free licence then there'll either be a charge for it the year after or clubs will get shafted even more on fees. MSUK do nowt for free.
You don't know that though do you?

This sort of attitude doesn't. move the sport forward.
Some things I used to do in motorsport are now no longer safe or relevant. We need to move forward not keep looking at what has gone before, like it was some form of utopia.

df76

1,999 posts

225 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
I can completely understand why they want every competitor to have a form of licence, sorts out insurance issues straightaway. Amazed that it hasn't happened before.

Explanation on the permit cost increases also seems perfectly reasonable. How can anyone be surprised / massively upset??

"Why are permit costs going up for clubs?

Over the last 20 years or so Motorsport UK clubs have benefitted from a relatively stable insurance market. For 9 of these years the permit insurance per capita remained static. Unfortunately the motorsport insurance market has now changed and we have had to renegotiate our cover, which accounts for the majority of the change in price. For example, public liability insurance cover for clubs has now been increased to £100million. There has also been an enhancement to personal accident insurance for members."

velocemitch

Original Poster:

2,733 posts

167 months

Friday 8th November
quotequote all
We all know this is insurance driven, but as is not exactly unusual for MSUk, their response is out of proportion. A flat increase of the same figure on every permit seems like a pretty silly approach to the problem. Especially when it is quite obvious that will hit the low budget side of the sport hardest. It’s also pretty obvious that those types of event are the least likely to end up with a large claim!.