MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

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Discussion

jsf

19,649 posts

195 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
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carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
You have to buy an IOPD competition licence to enter a Javelin Sprint, which costs £10 on the day, £20 for an anual one, even if you already have an MSUK competition licence.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
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Graham said:
Allan L said:
There was a time when the folk who controlled UK's motorsport were current participants, or retired from participating in the sport they controlled.
IIRC Hugh Chambers current head of msauk IS a current club level racer in an fia spec MGB in equipe GTS..


I must admit to be being mildly narked that my licence renewal has gone up by £50, a chunk of change when i only have time for 2-3 events at the moment. My licence, club membership and champ/series fees are now £4-500 quid before I even enter a race...
To be fair Dave Richards does have a bit of history in the sport and is not adverse to getting his hands dirty now. I shared the scrutineering bay with him on a Rally a couple of months back and beat him on the event too.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
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peterperkins said:
You could organise your own stuff and not have licenses, or insurance etc etc if you wished.
Everyone signs a massive disclaimer and you all just get on with it.
No involvement with MSUK etc..
Yeah right course you can, Macdonalds Car Park would be good wouldn’t it.

jsf

19,649 posts

195 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
velocemitch said:
Graham said:
Allan L said:
There was a time when the folk who controlled UK's motorsport were current participants, or retired from participating in the sport they controlled.
IIRC Hugh Chambers current head of msauk IS a current club level racer in an fia spec MGB in equipe GTS..


I must admit to be being mildly narked that my licence renewal has gone up by £50, a chunk of change when i only have time for 2-3 events at the moment. My licence, club membership and champ/series fees are now £4-500 quid before I even enter a race...
To be fair Dave Richards does have a bit of history in the sport and is not adverse to getting his hands dirty now. I shared the scrutineering bay with him on a Rally a couple of months back and beat him on the event too.
I know a few of the previous and current MSUK board members quite well, all active competitors and genuine motorsport enthusiasts.

Got my licence renewal today in the post. I have a race and rally licence, so £150 to renew both.

Reading the info i now dont need a medical, so saved about £100 plus the time off work to sort that out. As my previous medical was last year i dont need the eye test either.

I always have an eye test every 12 months anyway, so that part wouldnt have saved me anything, however one of the new licence benefits is free eyetests for all competitors at specsavers.

So anyone signing up for the new free clubbie licence can have a free eyetest at specsavers.

I also see i now get free personal accident cover for 5 trackdays as part of the new benefits.

The licence pack you used to have to pay extra for when applying for a race or rally licence for the first time is now free, that's a big saving for new competitors.



Camaro

1,332 posts

134 months

Monday 6th January
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Had a long chat yesterday at Bicester Heritage (the new site location for MSUK) about the license fee increase. Was more disheartened that I couldn't renew my membership there and get a free valet pack that apparently 'non-race' members could have... but anyway. Once questioned about the increase the chap gave me what seemed like a pretty honest and frank reply.

MSUK has no money.

They have a set of reserves, but they can't touch that for insurance purposes, so they've had to increase the revenue coming in. He said that the increase would go towards promoting grass root sports. I said to him I expect to see that return then. You can't increase a license fee with the promise of great exposure and then not deliver.

The long and short of it was that they have no money, license fees haven't been increased for a good 9 or so years and this was a semi knee jerk reaction. I'm sure there would be less fuss if over the course of the last 9 years an extra £5 was added sighting inflation and insurance premium increases.

Duke Caboom

1,668 posts

158 months

Monday 6th January
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I was on their website yesterday, trying to renew my licence.

It felt very "grassroots". There were plenty of pictures of £2k cars going round cones on targa rallies, trials, autosolos etc and mk2 MX5s on hillclimbs.

I've no idea if it will work but they seem to be promoting the lower cost end, it felt to me.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Monday 6th January
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I guess we will find out over the next few years, but as an organiser, competitor and club official most of the feedback I have had from grass roots competitors is that most of the changes have been negative.

As for the financial side, it’s been known for a while that the insurance issue is becoming a real problem, this appears to have driven the need to increase the cost to compete. I think MSUK are being quite disingenuous to say they are moving away from a pay up front basis to a pay as you play model. In truth they have increased costs at both ends.

The permit cost increase is the biggest hit, that will not be evident (yet) to those who are not involved in organising events. The daft thing is the increase will hit the grass roots events hardest. It’s being applied at a standard flat increase of the same amount.

carl_w

6,485 posts

217 months

Monday 6th January
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velocemitch said:
The permit cost increase is the biggest hit, that will not be evident (yet) to those who are not involved in organising events. The daft thing is the increase will hit the grass roots events hardest. It’s being applied at a standard flat increase of the same amount.
Surely it will become evident to competitors when the organizers put the event prices up?

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Monday 6th January
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That’s why I said ‘yet’.

ginettajoe

2,068 posts

177 months

Tuesday 7th January
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Camaro said:
Had a long chat yesterday at Bicester Heritage (the new site location for MSUK) about the license fee increase. Was more disheartened that I couldn't renew my membership there and get a free valet pack that apparently 'non-race' members could have... but anyway. Once questioned about the increase the chap gave me what seemed like a pretty honest and frank reply.

MSUK has no money.

They have a set of reserves, but they can't touch that for insurance purposes, so they've had to increase the revenue coming in. He said that the increase would go towards promoting grass root sports. I said to him I expect to see that return then. You can't increase a license fee with the promise of great exposure and then not deliver.

The long and short of it was that they have no money, license fees haven't been increased for a good 9 or so years and this was a semi knee jerk reaction. I'm sure there would be less fuss if over the course of the last 9 years an extra £5 was added sighting inflation and insurance premium increases.
So, MSUK has no money, so who was the retard that decided to go to the expense of changing the branding from "Motor Sports Association" to "Motorsport UK"?? Sounds like a very sensible move when you think how much that would have cost, when they have no money!!
You also say that licence fees haven't increased over the past nine years, well I'm not sure if you are referring to a "Fishing" licence, because race licences have gone up every year, and dramatically this year!!
Quite honestly, the changes that have been made, prove to me how incompetant those running MSUK actually are!

ceesvdelst

289 posts

14 months

Tuesday 7th January
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Good example

Blyton used to be a popular venue for rallying, I myself raced autograss there for a few years 20 odd years ago.

Tomlinson has ramped up the rental price for rallies so events can no longer really run there.

No idea why, Ginetta own it, so must be something to do with them, but nothing to do with MSA, they are not always the baddies.


HustleRussell

18,576 posts

119 months

Tuesday 7th January
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Those of you complaining about a fiver hehe for perspective the licence changes are set to cost me an extra £54.

I was Race National A which cost £101 last year and the renewal is National at £155.

It appears that based on my anticipated 2020 activities I could downgrade to an ‘Interclub’ licence at £99, but if in a future year I want to compete in an event abroad which is not organised and run by a UK championship I will need to upgrade to a ‘National’. To do that I would need to do the whole six signatures rigmarole again.

Currently I’m considering whether I am tight enough to downgrade to an ‘Interclub’, which costs the same as my ‘National A’ used to, and collect six signatures per season just in case I need to upgrade to ‘National’ at any time. This will be an inconvenience to me and will increase the workload on trackside admin but will save me £56 per season compared to renewing a ‘National’.

The saving on the medical won’t be of any benefit to me for another 15 years.

On the plus side I am happy to see licence fees waived for circuit officials.

Does anybody know if anything has been done to help Marshals?

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Tuesday 7th January
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Those of you complaining about a fiver hehe for perspective the licence changes are set to cost me an extra £54.
Don't forget the blanket increase of a fiver (on permits) is an increase per event, not a one off. I'm not sure how many race events you will do, but I will be doing as many as 20 'rally' events more if I decide to do some evening car Trials. So the increase could be at least £100.00 on top of the increase of £30.00 or so for my Licence.

Medicals don't affect me and I've never needed to pay for any licence to be clerk of course for National B rallies anyway.

I am by no means unusual as a 'grass roots' competitor on non circuit motorsport, I have no doubt at all that these new changes will hit us proportionately far harder than they will circuit racers. It will be a double whammy for 'families' who compete together as husband/wife or with their offspring.

Camaro

1,332 posts

134 months

Tuesday 7th January
quotequote all
ginettajoe said:
So, MSUK has no money, so who was the retard that decided to go to the expense of changing the branding from "Motor Sports Association" to "Motorsport UK"?? Sounds like a very sensible move when you think how much that would have cost, when they have no money!!
You also say that licence fees haven't increased over the past nine years, well I'm not sure if you are referring to a "Fishing" licence, because race licences have gone up every year, and dramatically this year!!
Quite honestly, the changes that have been made, prove to me how incompetant those running MSUK actually are!
Ah yes, the brand change was brought up too, apparently 'MSA' or 'Motor Sport Association' wasn't clear enough as to what it was there for, whereas 'Motor Sport UK' stands out much more for what they represent. Believe me, my BS radar was pinging like a champ, I couldn't take it out on the guy as he clearly was just doing his PR role and trying to assure me it was all justified.

ginettajoe

2,068 posts

177 months

Tuesday 7th January
quotequote all
Camaro said:
ginettajoe said:
So, MSUK has no money, so who was the retard that decided to go to the expense of changing the branding from "Motor Sports Association" to "Motorsport UK"?? Sounds like a very sensible move when you think how much that would have cost, when they have no money!!
You also say that licence fees haven't increased over the past nine years, well I'm not sure if you are referring to a "Fishing" licence, because race licences have gone up every year, and dramatically this year!!
Quite honestly, the changes that have been made, prove to me how incompetant those running MSUK actually are!
Ah yes, the brand change was brought up too, apparently 'MSA' or 'Motor Sport Association' wasn't clear enough as to what it was there for, whereas 'Motor Sport UK' stands out much more for what they represent. Believe me, my BS radar was pinging like a champ, I couldn't take it out on the guy as he clearly was just doing his PR role and trying to assure me it was all justified.
Thanks for that, and so my comment regarding the retard, was more than justified then??

Rockatansky

1,518 posts

146 months

Tuesday 7th January
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
It appears that based on my anticipated 2020 activities I could downgrade to an ‘Interclub’ licence at £99, but if in a future year I want to compete in an event abroad which is not organised and run by a UK championship I will need to upgrade to a ‘National’. To do that I would need to do the whole six signatures rigmarole again.
Based on the following section in the blue book I think you're wrong about needing to collect the signatures again. It's certainly my understanding that if you were ever eligible then you remain so.


14.1.3. A competitor who can provide proof of having ever held a Race National or National ‘A’ licence may renew it for either a 2020 Race National, Race International ‘D’ or Race Interclub licence.

LawrieC

255 posts

63 months

Tuesday 7th January
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I've heard that the MSA/MSUK have been having trouble with the insurance for several years. There was a bad accident about 5 years ago and the insurers realised that they might have to pay out for a change. There used to be a significant, but secret refund on event permit fees until recently as the lower level claims were self insured, and most of the kitty for that wasn't spent. The insurers now want that as well, and do they want MSUK to have reserves to cover claims too?

And in the middle of this they change the branding. I'm not happy that they call themselves MSUK, as there are several other organisations authorised to licence motorsport in the UK - they do not have a monopoly.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,060 posts

179 months

Wednesday 8th January
quotequote all
There have been a number of fatal accidents to be fair, including the very high profile one on the Jim Clark Rally, is that five years now?.
I think we all know that's the nubb of it, its just not been shared quite fairly as i see it.

Kraken

1,557 posts

159 months

Wednesday 8th January
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Camaro said:
Ah yes, the brand change was brought up too, apparently 'MSA' or 'Motor Sport Association' wasn't clear enough as to what it was there for, whereas 'Motor Sport UK' stands out much more for what they represent. Believe me, my BS radar was pinging like a champ, I couldn't take it out on the guy as he clearly was just doing his PR role and trying to assure me it was all justified.
Don't see a problem with the name change at all. As they've said MSA was associated with a stuffy, South East centric licensing authority that was only interested in getting kids to F1 whereas they are now moving to a more central location and have realised that the vast majority of their customers are people out for a bit of fun rather than being the next Lewis Hamilton. Motorsport UK seems to be a perfectly sensible moniker for those ambitions.

Many people don't realise the power of the correct branding in the modern world.

andya7

140 posts

175 months

Wednesday 8th January
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LawrieC said:
There used to be a significant, but secret refund on event permit fees until recently as the lower level claims were self insured, and most of the kitty for that wasn't spent. The insurers now want that as well, and do they want MSUK to have reserves to cover claims too?
Looking at their 2018 accounts it does state;

'We are also drawing a line under all past claims such that Motorsport UK will bear the cost of all outstanding claims, including those not yet reported. The board has reviewed outstanding claims and made provision for all known claims and an estimate of incurred but not reported claims. A sum of £1,350,012 has been released to the income statement'

So, maybe some truth on the self insurance side.

The accounts also show £582k of director emoluments (max single director £246k + £30k pension), I am not knocking anyone for 'getting what they can' but but a ~£300k package does seem a little excessive, essentially for a business turning over £9.5m and managing 50 staff?

If you consider that 30% of income is a simple 'admin' process of licencing? (licences £2,631,000) then it does look like the turnover can't sustain highly paid directors? (let alone how powerfully built they are)

... and they say they don't have any money?