Fastest no slicks and wings single seater series

[topgunkos]

Hi,

As of today, what is the series with no downforce open seaters that provide the fastest lap times?

[andrewcliffe]

BARC's national Formula Ford championship.

Anything else has either slicks and/or some aero.

About 110hp and treaded tyres, doing 50s laps around Brands Hatch which is the same as a 210hp Caterham 420R and 2 1/2 s faster than an Arial Atom Cup spec car, over a 1.2 mile circuit.

Edited by andrewcliffe on Tuesday 13th October 20:39

[Shelsleyf2]

The historic single seaters still race on treaded tyres, in 2011 a formula Junior would lap in 53s. Not sure of 2020 lap times. Full circuit is 1.47. 126bhp for a Ford engine, and very much an old school tyre and compund.

[Yazza54]

As you said open seater in your opening post, the answer is 750MC Sports 1000

If single seater, I'm not sure.

But anyway..

https://www.facebook.com/371258246286117/posts/331...

Here's an onboard from my pole lap at Anglesey last month.

Fantastic championship, good numbers on the up (although some issues for a few of our competitors this year with covid, but an understandable blip), reasonable of control measures for cost and development restrictions. Fantastic lap times and I think you'll struggle to go faster for less money.

https://youtu.be/iwKGq7fgwYc

FYI we have been in the high 47s at brands..

Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 14th October 09:51

[mickyh7]

Yazza54 said:

750MC Sports 1000

https://www.facebook.com/371258246286117/posts/331...

Here's an onboard from my pole lap at Anglesey last month.

Fantastic championship, good numbers ( although some struggles this year with covid, but an understandable blip), reasonable of control measures for cost and development restrictions. Fantastic lap times and I think you'll struggle to go faster for less money.

https://youtu.be/iwKGq7fgwYc

Thanks for that.
That looked a very good lap!
Properly woke me up and I've been at work since six!
Looks fantastic fun.

[Yazza54]

mickyh7 said:

Yazza54 said:

750MC Sports 1000

https://www.facebook.com/371258246286117/posts/331...

Here's an onboard from my pole lap at Anglesey last month.

Fantastic championship, good numbers ( although some struggles this year with covid, but an understandable blip), reasonable of control measures for cost and development restrictions. Fantastic lap times and I think you'll struggle to go faster for less money.

https://youtu.be/iwKGq7fgwYc

Thanks for that.
That looked a very good lap!
Properly woke me up and I've been at work since six!
Looks fantastic fun.

Cheers!

I do note that the OP said no downforce, the important point here is that the airflow has an effect on any car.. the beauty of sports 1000 is that any aero effects are a direct result of the inherent body shape/silouhette, we do not have wings, dive planes or diffusers, and we do have a strictly mandated minimum ride height. This added to the use of A048 control tyres which are very consistent through their life, and the use of standard superbike engines ensures you are never racing your chequebook with someone else's.

[Tkjracing]

Couldn’t agree more - sports 1000 is a fantastic formula. The control tyres and regs mean the costs don’t spiral out of control yet you still get to race at a ballistic pace. And the sound!!!
I joined as a complete rookie 2 years ago and haven’t looked back. Great cars, great paddock, great racing. It’s a super friendly formula too, where everyone wants to win but we’re all in it together and great support from everyone across the grid.
The power to weight ratio is actually right on the cusp of making it ineligible to novices.

Shameless plug alert...Ive actually just committed to a new car for next season (well, new to me) so my current car will be up for grabs at a very reasonable price soon if anyone wants to get involved!

[Teem50]

Tkjracing said:

Shameless plug alert...Ive actually just committed to a new car for next season (well, new to me) so my current car will be up for grabs at a very reasonable price soon if anyone wants to get involved!

It is indeed a great formula. I've been racing in it for years and can't think where I'd rather be. The noise, speed, laptimes and relative low cost are addictive. Whenever I hear of people spending more than their race entry fees on tyres for every race I boggle.

TKJracing's car is a great place to start. Just yesterday (not been racing this year as I'm an old fart and wary about SARS-CoV-2) I was fixing the bent bits I acquired after he spun in front of me at Oulton... :-)

Tim

[topgunkos]

Yazza54 said:

As you said open seater in your opening post, the answer is 750MC Sports 1000

If single seater, I'm not sure.

But anyway..

https://www.facebook.com/371258246286117/posts/331...

Here's an onboard from my pole lap at Anglesey last month.

Fantastic championship, good numbers on the up (although some issues for a few of our competitors this year with covid, but an understandable blip), reasonable of control measures for cost and development restrictions. Fantastic lap times and I think you'll struggle to go faster for less money.

https://youtu.be/iwKGq7fgwYc

FYI we have been in the high 47s at brands..

Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 14th October 09:51

Yes, I meant single seater.
That being said the above lap and series looks great, although I have to say something about a single seater with just mechanical grip sliding around in the wet appeals to me.

What kind of budget are you looking at for a decent car in the Sport 1000?

[Yazza54]

topgunkos said:

Yazza54 said:

As you said open seater in your opening post, the answer is 750MC Sports 1000

If single seater, I'm not sure.

But anyway..

https://www.facebook.com/371258246286117/posts/331...

Here's an onboard from my pole lap at Anglesey last month.

Fantastic championship, good numbers on the up (although some issues for a few of our competitors this year with covid, but an understandable blip), reasonable of control measures for cost and development restrictions. Fantastic lap times and I think you'll struggle to go faster for less money.

https://youtu.be/iwKGq7fgwYc

FYI we have been in the high 47s at brands..

Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 14th October 09:51

Yes, I meant single seater.
That being said the above lap and series looks great, although I have to say something about a single seater with just mechanical grip sliding around in the wet appeals to me.

What kind of budget are you looking at for a decent car in the Sport 1000?

You can get an older shape spire for around 14k, in fact there is a couple for sale now.

Over the years a new shape spire and Mittell came out and naturally the faster drivers wanted the new cars, but it has been proven multiple times that the older cars can be every bit as quick.

We are very much dependant on mechanical grip, there is some aero influence, but ultimately not much, it's a fascinating balancing act and we are always fiddling with setup to optimise the cars. The cars do move around (with fair warning) and we have had a few people used to slicks and wings struggle to get to grips with them. I wouldn't say they are difficult to drive per se, but they need working at to get the best from them and it's ultimately very rewarding. Where many slicks and wings drivers are somewhat spoilt for grip.

In terms of ongoing budget per season, you can do a full season on 2 sets of tyres, so roughly £850. We are limited to 3 sets anyway.

Engines can be bought from bike breakers for around £1500 and will often do a couple of seasons before refresh, particularly the cbr1000rr as they are in abundance. Some people just run them til they break and buy another given the price point.

That's £1500 for a 13000 rpm, 6 speed sequential gearbox 170hp at the wheels engine... What does a 1600 Kent engine cost??

Fuel I probably use around 80L if testing on a Friday too.

Other running costs are much the same as any other championship I suppose. The cars are generally reliable, it's a case of checking things like bearings, rose joints, brakes etc.. general prep.

The club itself is fantastic and we have one of the friendliest paddocks going.

Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 14th October 13:26

[andrewcliffe]

The BRSCC National class of Formula Ford use treaded Avon ACB10's for all conditions and there are no wings for additional downforce. Other modern Formula Ford championship use a treaded control tyre.

All the other single seater classes, in order to differentiate themselves, either use aero, slicks/wet tyres or are slower.

Most of the Zetec engined Formula Fords now race in Monoposto 1800 where you can have slicks or aero if you want - some do, some don't. Others were converted back to Kent engined cars.

Most of the Duratec engined Formula Fords have now been converted back to run the the traditional Kent engine, although can run in Mono as a spec car in Mono1800 class.

[andy97]

I would have thought that Monoposto 1600 or 1800 would have been up amongst the fastest single seaters with no aero.

Some do have wings but not all. And race on slicks.
A F Ford Zetec or a F Vauxhall Junior 16v are v quick cars, yet very understressed engines and therefore cheap to run.

[andrewcliffe]

If you want a V10, then a Judd V10 is circa £ 50,000 plus electronics. It'll need a rebuild every 3000km. Either buy a GP2 car as a driveable car and fit the engine, but you won't get much change if any from £ 300,000.

Or if you've got more cash lying around, a new F2 car is supposely € 500,000 less engine. Not sure if that includes a gearbox either. Engines are often leased.

[Nampahc Niloc]

andrewcliffe said:

If you want a V10, then a Judd V10 is circa £ 50,000 plus electronics. It'll need a rebuild every 3000km. Either buy a GP2 car as a driveable car and fit the engine, but you won't get much change if any from £ 300,000.

Or if you've got more cash lying around, a new F2 car is supposely € 500,000 less engine. Not sure if that includes a gearbox either. Engines are often leased.

Did you mean to post that in this post?

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[andrewcliffe]

Whoops. Too many tabs open.

[RobM77]

Anything small like that is mega to drive and highly recommended.

I'd like to mention two considerations though that may hopefully help you:

1) Don't get too hung up on lap times. I've tested and raced a few different single seaters with a range of performance, the slowest being a fairly tired 1995 Van Diemen Formula Renault, and the fastest being my recently owned 2008 Formula Renault 2.0. You're basically doing the same thing in all of them, and with very little suspension movement there's no pitch and roll drama like you get driving a fast road car. Plus you sit quite reclined, so can't feel the force in acceleration and braking like in a road going fast car (which is obviously a lot slower). The main thing that becomes apparent is that when the performance gets greater, you start to feel it in your neck on the faster corners - with the FR2.0 in FR spec I really struggled with the strength aspect for prolonged test sessions much over 20 minutes. Sure, I enjoyed the FR2.0 the most out of all of them, especially somewhere like Silverstone, but I would genuinely jump at the chance to drive anything like that again, without too much regard for the lap time. The main reason I enjoyed the FR the most is covered by my second point:

2) The other consideration is your dimensions and the car's. Despite being a pretty skinny guy and not too tall, I really didn't fit in any single seater I ever drove and consequently couldn't drive to the best of my ability. This was usually due to my legs and arms being constrained, limiting my operation of the pedals, steering and gearshift. I reckon I always lost about 0.5, maybe even 1 second a lap. Definitely clamber into a few, or ideally find an arrive and drive and test one. Whilst my heart's always in single seaters, it's rather nice in my current racing tin top to actually drive the thing, rather than feeling like a magician trying to get out of a straight jacket the whole time; changing gear with my fingertips, contorting my feet, steering with my wrists, etc.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 3rd November 16:20

[Yazza54]

I definitely don't feel like that driving my spire, but know exactly what you mean and it's no fun

[RobM77]

Yazza54 said:

I definitely don't feel like that driving my spire, but know exactly what you mean and it's no fun

My idea of heaven is a single seater with enough space to fit me in! I had some coaching in a sim that used an F3000 tub and that was great, although my salary may be an issue there

The main problem for me is the length of my legs - I'm only 5'10", but have a 36" inside leg. It pushes me back in the cockpit, cramping my arms up; the splayed legs interfere with the gear change, and my knees are normally hard up against the inside of the tub, meaning I struggle to heel and toe and move around freely on the pedals. To make matters worse, my feet are a 4E width, so I frequently get two pedals at once, or get a foot stuck when down on a pedal (usually the throttle, with my foot under the brake, meaning I can't get it off the throttle).

How Justin Wilson managed and still drove like an utter genius I'll never know!

[Jim Spencer]

Hi Rob

Had a go in a Vauxhall Lotus?

Helped a mate run one a few years ago and had a run in it myself, lots of space, very wide footbox too IIRC.
The weapon of choice for Monoposto classic class i reckon..

[RobM77]

Jim Spencer said:

Hi Rob

Had a go in a Vauxhall Lotus?

Helped a mate run one a few years ago and had a run in it myself, lots of space, very wide footbox too IIRC.
The weapon of choice for Monoposto classic class i reckon..

Hi. No, I haven't, although now I'm fully into running the MG - I've done a lot of work on it this year to get it up to scratch.

The other issue with single seaters, which is a major reason I stopped, was that I found running it on my own difficult. Strapping yourself in is tricky with no room in the cockpit, and starting off the slave is obviously problematic. Possible, but with a tin top it's a lot easier to jump in and go.