New MSUK track limits proposals

New MSUK track limits proposals

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Discussion

Drumroll

3,738 posts

119 months

Sunday 5th February 2023
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LukeBrown66 said:
Great addition to the thread, is that the best you can do?

Explain to me very clearly how having different track limits rules for Britain and for the rest of the world is a good thing?
There are many rules that are different for FIA events than what they are at National levels.

They have the track limit rules in for a while now and yes it was brought in mainly at the request of the track owners. (If they hadn't all that would have happened is the track hire agreements would have stipulated it. Which would have made it almost impossible to police and ended up with clubs having to pick up the bill) All they are doing is refining it. From a policing point of view it looks like it will be easier (Just wished it would have been announced sooner. As marshals training days have already started.)

Whilst it is easy to blame MSUK for everything, unless related to safety, all rule changes go through various stakeholder groups.

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Sunday 5th February 2023
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The issue here is that certain people seem to avoid, is that there are all sorts of people racing in the UK, from the vast ranks of amateurs to potentially F1 drivers, who will be eventually be driving all over the world.

The point HAS to be that the rules should be the same everywhere. A lot of series from the UK now race in France,Spain and Belgium, Holland, so dot eh same rules apply?

I am in agreement that the white line thing should be the furthermost point, but the problem is that only really suits certain tracks, most of our tracks other than Silverstone are similar in that grass or grasscrete is the edge of the track. That is NOT like Bahrain, or Dubai or other tracks, that have been designed to host classes where there is more leniency.

Teaching a driver to stay with white track limits is all well and good but initially it will disadvantage them internationally. For the sake of what? It makes it harder for our judges of fact or whatever they are to police this surely?

Drumroll

3,738 posts

119 months

Sunday 5th February 2023
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
The issue here is that certain people seem to avoid, is that there are all sorts of people racing in the UK, from the vast ranks of amateurs to potentially F1 drivers, who will be eventually be driving all over the world.

The point HAS to be that the rules should be the same everywhere. A lot of series from the UK now race in France, Spain and Belgium, Holland, so dot eh same rules apply?

I am in agreement that the white line thing should be the furthermost point, but the problem is that only really suits certain tracks, most of our tracks other than Silverstone are similar in that grass or grasscrete is the edge of the track. That is NOT like Bahrain, or Dubai or other tracks, that have been designed to host classes where there is more leniency.

Teaching a driver to stay with white track limits is all well and good but initially it will disadvantage them internationally. For the sake of what? It makes it harder for our judges of fact or whatever they are to police this surely?
Why do they need to be the same? It is no different than different series having different rules (even within the UK) You could turn this around and say if a driver can be competitive by keeping his car "on the black stuff" how much of an advantage would they have when they can use a bit of the none black stuff?

I haven't really been involved in club "away days" for many years, so I can't say exactly how track limits are looked at now.

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Sunday 5th February 2023
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I do feel it is largely done because the vast majority of our tracks in the UK are not the same as tracks in the rest of the world, regarding the edges of tracks.

In some ways yes, kerbing on some corners is the same. And, I agree that the way the UK are doing it is the preferred way, the white lines SHOULD be the track edge.

But if you are Spanish and run at Barcelona, Valencia, Aragon etc, you have tons of run off in some places, very different to Oulton, Cadwell and Thruxton or Croft.

If tracks are not capable of running the same sort of track limits rules as elsewhere, you have to do something different, despite it being just as hard to police, you have read here how hard it already is.


mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Monday 6th February 2023
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I agree with the sentiments of track limits wholeheartedly, and support compliance by all.

I do not, however, support the totting up of penalties being added to total race duration after the end of the races though.

Whilst it sounds sensible and fair, it will inevitably mean that there will be frequent changes of result positions after the chequered flags, and the clerc of the course office will become a busy place for the aggrieved competitors.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Monday 6th February 2023
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whp1983 said:
I assume this doesn’t apply to BTCC?

As for rest of us, I don’t see why making one mistake needs punishing…. It is amateur racing. I think as long as it is well
Policed and fair for all it’s fine. Let’s see how it goes.
It almost definitely wont apply to BTCC, however that's a big mistake IMO.


JoelH

167 posts

29 months

Monday 6th February 2023
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Not sure where people get this idea that it doesn't apply to BTCC from. Pretty much every meeting there are people getting warnings and time penalties and there have been many quali sessions where some drivers have only managed a legal lap right at the very end. Tim Harvey is always complaining about it.

Yes there are some track and corners (mainly non-MSV) where they aren't applied as strictly as the rules state but that doesn't apply to just the BTCC.

I do think the one second penalty for first offence might be caused by the BTCC though as I've seen more than a few interviews where drivers say they "saved" up their "freebie" track limit breach for a last lap lunge.

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Monday 6th February 2023
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It will apply to BTCC but don’t forget that penalties "may apply" so it’s down to the CoC and Race Director etc to decide the level of enforcement.

Hopefully it will still lead to a tighter standard though, I love watching BTCC but it’s a terrible example to club racers in general.

bozla

94 posts

150 months

Monday 6th February 2023
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Yazza54 said:
Track limits are an absolute pain at club level where the policing of it is totally inconsistent.

I got done for it at croft (of all places!!) last year, everyone was doing the same thing as me. Provided onboard and live stream footage to the clerk's, no one was interested. I was the only person who got a penalty for it resulting in a time penalty forcing me to drop a position that I held onto for 20 minutes. Even had loads of screen grabs of the guy behind me doing the same thing and the guy in front, every lap!!

The problem is that with it being so inconsistent, if everyone is doing it and you aren't, that's a few tenths a lap...

Donington national we had a few individuals just smashing their car straight through the chicane over the new sausage kerbs, again, nothing happened to them.

At this point I feel like they would be better scrapping the rule altogether and just letting us use whatever is there to be used. I.e. anything but gravel or grass. (Obviously I'm simplifying massively here)
You nailed it Yazza. The rules aren't the problem, it's the application. It's always been only certain corners that you had to be careful at, despite the rules clearly stating otherwise. I can't imagine a tightening of the rules is going to change anything but we shall see. It does leave a bad taste in the mouth when the rules are applied inconsistently.

covboy

2,573 posts

173 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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bozla said:
You nailed it Yazza. The rules aren't the problem, it's the application. It's always been only certain corners that you had to be careful at, despite the rules clearly stating otherwise. I can't imagine a tightening of the rules is going to change anything but we shall see. It does leave a bad taste in the mouth when the rules are applied inconsistently.
The problem being it's impossible to police every corner at all the circuits being used. Also at a lot of circuits the Judges of fact responsible for looking out for this are located so far away from the track it's a most difficult job. It's no joke that these folk are often referred to as "Bingo callers"

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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Again, there are a lot of international races at quite a few tracks in the UK, and the drivers there, be they amateur or pro might be used to different rules. Yes it is obvious in most cases, but surely it would be made easier by having one overall rule set in stone from high above

Can anyone explain to me why the UK applies its own rules to a driving etiquette issue that occurs worldwide and should in reality be dealt with overwhelmingly obviously by the FIA at the very least.

Drumroll

3,738 posts

119 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
Again, there are a lot of international races at quite a few tracks in the UK, and the drivers there, be they amateur or pro might be used to different rules. Yes it is obvious in most cases, but surely it would be made easier by having one overall rule set in stone from high above

Can anyone explain to me why the UK applies its own rules to a driving etiquette issue that occurs worldwide and should in reality be dealt with overwhelmingly obviously by the FIA at the very least.
Like everything else, it is not as simple as you would like it to be. Different countries have evolved different rules to suit their own "market" Take BTCC it is a successful series but the cars from it can't compete in the World Touring Car Championship. DTM also very successful but doesn't work anywhere else.

geeks

9,119 posts

138 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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LukeBrown66 said:
Can anyone explain to me why the UK applies its own rules to a driving etiquette issue that occurs worldwide and should in reality be dealt with overwhelmingly obviously by the FIA at the very least.
Because the FIA don't run UK motorsport. You have been told this already. Stop asking

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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Do not tell me what to do, you are not in authority here!

The question is simple. I understand the response, but as usual you do not answer the question fully it only answer your spin on it.

If the FIA lead on this and MAKE everyone implement a strategy that can be used would that not be the easiest and fairest solution? Regardless of what MSUK does.


danfilm007

155 posts

139 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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LukeBrown66 said:
If the FIA lead on this and MAKE everyone implement a strategy that can be used would that not be the easiest and fairest solution? Regardless of what MSUK does.
No, because aside from it not being down to the FIA to force individual ACMs to do as they like, the FIA's approach is hardly consistent...

Drumroll

3,738 posts

119 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
quotequote all
LukeBrown66 said:
Do not tell me what to do, you are not in authority here!

The question is simple. I understand the response, but as usual you do not answer the question fully it only answer your spin on it.

If the FIA lead on this and MAKE everyone implement a strategy that can be used would that not be the easiest and fairest solution? Regardless of what MSUK does.
But as usual people tell you things and you ignore them as they don't support your view.

Let's make it simple the FIA Don't run UK motorsport. There are common regulations which again you would know if you cared to look.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
LukeBrown66 said:
Do not tell me what to do, you are not in authority here!

The question is simple. I understand the response, but as usual you do not answer the question fully it only answer your spin on it.

If the FIA lead on this and MAKE everyone implement a strategy that can be used would that not be the easiest and fairest solution? Regardless of what MSUK does.
But as usual people tell you things and you ignore them as they don't support your view.

Let's make it simple the FIA Don't run UK motorsport. There are common regulations which again you would know if you cared to look.
"I don't see why the LAPD don't step in, and sort the London Metropolitan Police out!" wink

bozla

94 posts

150 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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covboy said:
bozla said:
You nailed it Yazza. The rules aren't the problem, it's the application. It's always been only certain corners that you had to be careful at, despite the rules clearly stating otherwise. I can't imagine a tightening of the rules is going to change anything but we shall see. It does leave a bad taste in the mouth when the rules are applied inconsistently.
The problem being it's impossible to police every corner at all the circuits being used. Also at a lot of circuits the Judges of fact responsible for looking out for this are located so far away from the track it's a most difficult job. It's no joke that these folk are often referred to as "Bingo callers"
To be honest, I don't envy their job! I'm very grateful for the volunteers that let us go racing.

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
quotequote all
So the FIA, the governing body for world motorsport, have nothing to do with UK motorsport at all.

All their safety initiatives are done for them and them alone, we have never introduced any of that into UK motorsport, safety, barriers, track design, marshalling, run off areas, fire prevention, in car safety, personal equipment, every piece of that has been done without any communication between the MSA and FIA has it?

It's alright being all clever and sarcastic but the basic premise is very easy to understand if you look outside your little insular world. Try looking out of your little box and seeing it from the bigger picture. I am just a fan and see no reason why this is so hard for anyone to comprehend, try also reading it as if Joe Bloggs was typing, it, not some bloke you would argue with white was black.

The top governing body introduce rules about track limits and ALL regional, national motorsport authorities are duty bound to implement it?

If that could never work, fair enough. But is it too much of a stretch to think it could? Or is that sort of thinking far too simple, easy to understand and implement?

JoelH

167 posts

29 months

Tuesday 7th February 2023
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The FIA lay out a base set of rules and then the various national bodies around the world add/change what they need. Until recently we had different rules on extinguishers for example. We have longer life on some seats and harnesses as well. Not to mention roll cages are less strict under MSUK rules for certain events as well. Many other rules are different here and around the world despite the bodies all being under the FIA umbrella.

I really don't see it as an issue that our track rules are stricter. It's harder to drive to strict limits so when drivers get to race under laxer rules they should find it far easier. Any driver with ambitions to go professional at some point should have zero problems swapping between different rule sets.