More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
Sporky said:
Some really interesting assumptions. All the below on the basis that I don't know the exact topology, but do have a Masters in electronic engineering (with music technology systems so a fair bit directly relevant), and work in AV design, so I have a little qualification and a bit (over two decades) of experience.
No-one has noted that there's a much bigger transformer under the capacitor bank (images on the internet to support this).
I did speculate about the possibility of an additional transformer lurking beneath the capacitor bank.No-one has noted that there's a much bigger transformer under the capacitor bank (images on the internet to support this).
Sporky said:
Everyone has assumed that the caps are all in parallel, though the physical arrangement and multiple connectors suggests otherwise. Series/parallel to get higher voltage from smaller fans isn't unusual; you sacrifice capacity (caps in parallel add their uF, in series it divides down like resistors in parallel), but the smaller physical size helps with cooling and noise. At a guess they're in banks of four in series, giving 200v of 5,500uF per bank, which is appropriate vs the stated peak output voltage (178 from memory) stated on the web site.
There are other photos of the insides showing rather a different capacitor arrangement, so we can't take that one (or, to be fair, the others) as definitive.
I also said "And possibly ~24x 22000uF / 50v caps per rail?" - it was pure speculation - I was unable to find any additional images of this specific amp - I guess my Google fu failed me on this occassion.There are other photos of the insides showing rather a different capacitor arrangement, so we can't take that one (or, to be fair, the others) as definitive.
Sporky said:
The peak power output does seem optimistic, but without knowing the design parameters it's hard to be totally certain. If they're only saying peak power is a 100ms burst every 30 seconds, for example, that's rather different from the sillier suggestion earlier in the thread.
Heat output - from a few other images the sides are pretty chunky, high surface area heatsinks. At 200w idle they will get warm. Knowing the operating class would help - from the numbers on the we site we know it's not class A, from the company name we can probably assume not class D or T (though both have analogue signal paths), but that leaves options - maybe G or H.
Clearly it's a 'high bias' design with that kind of idle dissipation - and as you say, it could be a class G design however unless there are some higher voltage caps lurking within that capacitor bank I think that class G can be ruled out.Heat output - from a few other images the sides are pretty chunky, high surface area heatsinks. At 200w idle they will get warm. Knowing the operating class would help - from the numbers on the we site we know it's not class A, from the company name we can probably assume not class D or T (though both have analogue signal paths), but that leaves options - maybe G or H.
Sporky said:
So lots of speculation, and all the sums thus far based on assumptions which look shaky.
I don't really have a horse in this race, nor am I in the market. Errors and omissions excepted.
Can we get back to laughing at £2,000 USB cables and little rocks you stick down your pants while listening to awful jazz?
As with any of this type of device, one can only speculate as the schematics are rarely, if ever available. And the complexity makes reverse engineering a difficult (if not impossible) task.I don't really have a horse in this race, nor am I in the market. Errors and omissions excepted.
Can we get back to laughing at £2,000 USB cables and little rocks you stick down your pants while listening to awful jazz?
However part of the fun is speculating - and their claims are somewhat outrageous, which is fuelling that speculation.
No harm in that is there?
Spleen said:
<snip>
Lastly, the value in your posts is yours and yours alone.
I really don't wish to argue about this - but making statements like that ^^^ - just because these technical posts have no value to you, doesn't mean that nobody else derives value from them.Lastly, the value in your posts is yours and yours alone.
I daresay you have not been voted to speak for every member on PH.
@911Hope - I followed some calculations on Douglas Self's website
I get 116w / 8 ohms and 226w / 4 ohms
I double checked my calculations against his example and get the same results. So if this is wrong....?
I get 116w / 8 ohms and 226w / 4 ohms
I double checked my calculations against his example and get the same results. So if this is wrong....?
| Selfs calculations | ||
|---|---|---|
| Vac = | 33.00 | Vac |
| Vdiode = | 1.00 | |
| Vrail - (SQRT(2))-2*Vdiode = | 44.67 | Vdc |
| Vpk = Vrail-Vsat | 43.67 | Vdc |
| Vsat = | 1.00 | Volts |
| Re = | 0.10 | Ohms |
| Rload = | 8.00 | Ohms |
| Vpk = | 43.13 | Volts |
| Pout=(Vpk/sqrt(2))^2 * (1/Rload) | 116.26 | Watts |
Sporky said:
I think you've assumed the caps are all in parallel, and taken 45v as the supply. From the photos it looks like the caps are in alternate rows of four and five, so the more logical assumption would be banks of nine in series, giving 450v rails (minus some safe tolerance).
Maybe rework the sums with 180v (four in series) or 405v (nine in series) supply? It can't be 45v.
I agree with your assumptions. Also agree that it can't be 45v with the power claims they are making.Maybe rework the sums with 180v (four in series) or 405v (nine in series) supply? It can't be 45v.
4 caps in series / 180 Vdc rail: 1993.96 Watts / 8 ohms & 3891 Watts / 4 ohms
9 caps in series / 405 Vdc rail: 10105 Watts / 8 ohms & 19720 Watts / 4 ohms (I think it's safe to say the rails are not that high)
However... four 22000uF caps in series only yields 5500uF (but of course they could be in series / parallel)
I'd go with the caps in series / parallel and 90v rails in bridged mode, which yields a more likely 450 Watts / 8 ohms & 880 Watts / 4 ohms (unbridged) as I think that rails higher than ~100v will be tricky in the US market.
Bridge that and we arrive closer to the claimed power figures.
EDIT: Not forgetting that these are theoretical figures and don't account for transformer losses / regulation and potential losses in the output transistors (which should be minimal given the high count).
Edited by TonyRPH on Thursday 24th August 08:51
Deranged Rover said:
<snip>
As a light-hearted aside I also have a Yamaha PC-5002M power amplifier. It has a rating of 750W per channel into 4 Ohms, (to the usual suspects - if you're about to do the calculations to disprove this, just STOP NOW!) weights 61kg and is a the only proper dual mono power amplifier I've ever encountered as it has two mains leads.
It's a Yamaha. It's Japanese. The power ratings will be honest and probably ever so slightly conservative in my experience.As a light-hearted aside I also have a Yamaha PC-5002M power amplifier. It has a rating of 750W per channel into 4 Ohms, (to the usual suspects - if you're about to do the calculations to disprove this, just STOP NOW!) weights 61kg and is a the only proper dual mono power amplifier I've ever encountered as it has two mains leads.
I had a Yamaha MX-630 (125w/8 ohms) for a while and it was a bit of a beast (to me at least).
swisstoni said:
It’s decades since I picked up a HiFi mag.
But when subs were being discussed, the idea was that they were meant to be more felt than heard.
So you would turn them down until you were only just aware of them.
Exactly what I always read as well. However whenever I've added a sub to my system, I end up finding it works really well for some tracks, but then I get a few tracks that either still lack deep bass (even though I know it's there from listening via headphones) or other tracks are too bassy.But when subs were being discussed, the idea was that they were meant to be more felt than heard.
So you would turn them down until you were only just aware of them.
I found myself constantly tweaking and always chuck the sub out.
Dragster said:
Have you ever tried integrating the sub and main speakers by measurement rather than by ear? Lots of superb measurement software / freeware available for this purpose. Hardware costs are very low too. Many use REW ( Room equalisation Wizard ) because of it's room correction option but many also use ARTA and HolmImpulse which arguably even better.........and are also free.
You can buy a decent mic ( Behringer 8000 ) and competent audio interface ( Tascam or similar ) for less than £100 and use them to measure your whole system.........this can be used optimise the main speaker and subwoofer positions relative to side walls and rear wall and then phase integrate them at the listening position etc. Makes a massive difference to the overall performance by limiting the peaks and nulls at low and subwoofer frequencies.
Electronics was a long term career before I retired. I have a decent measurement mic and audio interface and have indeed tried integrating the sub using various software - REW + other spectrum analyzers, but I still find that once the music plays, I end up with too little bass or 'thump, thump' type bass.You can buy a decent mic ( Behringer 8000 ) and competent audio interface ( Tascam or similar ) for less than £100 and use them to measure your whole system.........this can be used optimise the main speaker and subwoofer positions relative to side walls and rear wall and then phase integrate them at the listening position etc. Makes a massive difference to the overall performance by limiting the peaks and nulls at low and subwoofer frequencies.
Tried a couple of different subs as well, to no avail.
I have a similar issue (but not as pronounced) with my A/V system too. Tried different cut off frequencies etc. etc. to no avail. Some movies it's just right, then others any explosions or similar effects end up way to pronounced.
I've also tried floor standers & stand mount speakers of various types.
Ironically the closest I got was with a pair of cheap JPW Gold Monitors (quite limited LF response) compared to my more expensive speakers.
TEKNOPUG said:
Surely a lot of the bass issues are down to how the music and film audio tracks are mastered? You aren't going to have a single setting that works for everything.
Precisely this.Some studios use small Yamaha monitors for mastering, others (e.g. Abbey Road) use large B&W monitors for mastering.
I do realise that studios often have an assortment of monitor speakers to choose from, however this has to be one reason to explain the variations in bass output (and of course the sound as dictated by the engineer / band / etc.).
Tony1963 said:
<snip>
“I hear something that you don’t believe I can.
You demand that I prove my belief to you through double-blind testing.
Should I (as must be the case) fail - do I then stop hearing something.
Should I successfully jump through your hoops - will you then hear it too? If so - why can’t you hear it now?
Difficult to see my motivation here.
<snip>
The issue with statements like this are that our brain, ears and taste buds are inconsistent.“I hear something that you don’t believe I can.
You demand that I prove my belief to you through double-blind testing.
Should I (as must be the case) fail - do I then stop hearing something.
Should I successfully jump through your hoops - will you then hear it too? If so - why can’t you hear it now?
Difficult to see my motivation here.
- * I don’t like ‘ice cream’ with guar gum or other stabilizers. You may not mind or be unable to taste a difference.
<snip>
There are days when I put music on and wonder what's gone wrong with my HiFi - but it's not the HiFi - it's me.
The same goes for food. Some days a food one usually enjoys can just taste wrong - and I suspect it's not the food that's inconsistent, it's the person tasting it.
And this is why, although A/B/x testing is so important with audio, conducting long term tests over several days can often be inconclusive because of human variance.
I give you the Audio Magic Masterpiece M-1 Beeswax Fuse
Yours for a mere $300
Yours for a mere $300
Website said:
Introducing the new Masterpiece M-1 fuse
The Audio Magic Masterpiece M-1 Beeswax fuse has been in development for over a year and finally meets Audio Magic's criteria for sonic excellence and provides a very noticeable improvement over any other fuse Audio Magic has developed in the past. The M-1 is the most labor intensive fuse in their line up by far. The M-1 is now filled with the new Black Diamond fill within the fuse as well as Bees Wax also incorporating Audio Magic's I-core technology and a proprietary coating on the outside of the fuse making this the quietest fuse ever!
What does this mean sonically? Much blacker back ground, wider and deeper sound stage, better detail, better dynamics, smoother, and very musical. The M-1 will without question transform your system in to something magical.
Due to the complexity of the fuse lead time can be longer than in the past.
The Audio Magic Masterpiece M-1 Beeswax fuse has been in development for over a year and finally meets Audio Magic's criteria for sonic excellence and provides a very noticeable improvement over any other fuse Audio Magic has developed in the past. The M-1 is the most labor intensive fuse in their line up by far. The M-1 is now filled with the new Black Diamond fill within the fuse as well as Bees Wax also incorporating Audio Magic's I-core technology and a proprietary coating on the outside of the fuse making this the quietest fuse ever!
What does this mean sonically? Much blacker back ground, wider and deeper sound stage, better detail, better dynamics, smoother, and very musical. The M-1 will without question transform your system in to something magical.
Due to the complexity of the fuse lead time can be longer than in the past.
Kart16 said:
Ah, PS Audio - you can take almost everything he says with a pinch of salt.Additionally, it's a fallacy that modern computers are noisy. This myth has been debunked several times.
I use computers for audio testing - the renowned Audio Precision audio tester is computer based.
Here are some tests I carried out myself on a couple of different computers.
Yes, you can get noise when using a USB DAC - BUT - 99.999% of the time, this noise is caused by a ground loop.
So to answer your question, yes the video is BS, USB can be used for low noise audio, if care is taken to avoid ground loops.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: FWIW it was a genuine question.
I don't know if you'd end up paying £300K to play something that's actually garbage because it's badly made vinyl.
People who own turntables like this will go to any lengths to get that "high quality" pressing.I don't know if you'd end up paying £300K to play something that's actually garbage because it's badly made vinyl.
Said pressings often cost into 3 figures, tend to be very rare but usually much higher quality than mainstream pressings.
Unfortunately, this also limits choice...
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Yeah I do wonder how people reconcile the trade off between listening to music you actually like on cheaper equipment v having the best turntable in the world but having to listen to stuff you really don't like but it's amazing quality
You hit the nail right on the head there.For many of the type of people we're discussing, it's all about listening to the equipment rather than the music.
99% of the time, it's probably some random tinkly jazz from Japan lol.
If the turntable wasn't bullsh*t then this definitely is...
A mere $325.00 per unit.
A mere $325.00 per unit.
website said:
The purpose of a cable insulator is to prevent cables from being influenced by vibrations from the speaker. Most conventional cable insulators (or stabilizers) are made from a single material. So even if the cable is lifted from the floor, they will generate their own resonance which will inevitably induce coloration.
We at <BLAH> have tested many materials, and as a result of these tests we decided to adopt a combination of top quality maple and ebony, which makes the sound natural and free from coloration. The cable contact surface is covered with special vibration control material for superb resonance control.
In addition, inside the insulator is a blend of natural ores which absorb electromagnetic waves and radiated noise from the cable. Because of its combination of resonance control and noise absorption abilities, the [ISOLATOR] will dramatically improve sound in a manner never before achieved. Noise is dramatically reduced and sound stage and imaging are more focused and three dimensional. The tone will become smoother as well.
We at <BLAH> have tested many materials, and as a result of these tests we decided to adopt a combination of top quality maple and ebony, which makes the sound natural and free from coloration. The cable contact surface is covered with special vibration control material for superb resonance control.
In addition, inside the insulator is a blend of natural ores which absorb electromagnetic waves and radiated noise from the cable. Because of its combination of resonance control and noise absorption abilities, the [ISOLATOR] will dramatically improve sound in a manner never before achieved. Noise is dramatically reduced and sound stage and imaging are more focused and three dimensional. The tone will become smoother as well.
Have a bonus "LAN protector"
"Thanks to its GIGA CANCELING technology the LAN PROTECTOR achieves a new quality of network transmission, which completely redefines the clarity, naturalness and dynamics of your audio- and videosignals ."
Jitter appears to be the latest buzzword with networks now.
I guess the snake oil purveyors have come to realise that jitter in DACs is no longer an issue (and hasn't been for years)...
https://www.schnerzinger.com/english/produkte/lan-...
"Thanks to its GIGA CANCELING technology the LAN PROTECTOR achieves a new quality of network transmission, which completely redefines the clarity, naturalness and dynamics of your audio- and videosignals ."
Jitter appears to be the latest buzzword with networks now.
I guess the snake oil purveyors have come to realise that jitter in DACs is no longer an issue (and hasn't been for years)...
https://www.schnerzinger.com/english/produkte/lan-...
Sporky said:
Sadly no!
I did sell some really expensive speaker cable recently though. 4mm², £2.04 a metre.
Expensive you say? What about this.... I did sell some really expensive speaker cable recently though. 4mm², £2.04 a metre.
I believe it's this cable...
https://www.audiomagic.eu/en/nuforce-high-end/ster...
€78,000 for a 2.5M pair.
EDIT: My initial thought was that this was a photoshop job, but then I found a picture taken from a different angle...
Edited by TonyRPH on Sunday 5th November 08:40
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