Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
SWoll said:
And as above, if your priority is range you buy the LR. If your priority is cost you buy the RWD. You have choice.
The changes they've made to the performance in order to make it a better drivers car and distinct from the other models have affected efficiency, which seem a fair trade off to me. Assuming it'll still do 3-3.5 miles/kWh in the real world then 250 miles should be achievable, which IME is perfectly acceptable.
Harry's obsession with efficiency has never made any sense to me. Assuming you can charge at home then even the most inefficient EV is a cheap as chips to charge, and very few drivers are doing 200+ mile trips regularly enough for absolute range to be anything more than an occasional nuisance that can easily be planned for.
Wow, Tesla Model 3 review has stoked up plenty of interesting debate, both on the channel and on here!The changes they've made to the performance in order to make it a better drivers car and distinct from the other models have affected efficiency, which seem a fair trade off to me. Assuming it'll still do 3-3.5 miles/kWh in the real world then 250 miles should be achievable, which IME is perfectly acceptable.
Harry's obsession with efficiency has never made any sense to me. Assuming you can charge at home then even the most inefficient EV is a cheap as chips to charge, and very few drivers are doing 200+ mile trips regularly enough for absolute range to be anything more than an occasional nuisance that can easily be planned for.
Regarding my focus on efficiency when reviewing the occasional EV, I do it because the sole reason behind the push to EV was to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions but the marketing focus on today's EVs seems to be all about performance, hence why we've ended up with 900bhp family SUVs like the Lotus Eletre. I don't see such vehicles as a great way to reverse climate change, it's time legislators stepped in with targets for EV efficiency, instead of pretending if it's powered solely by electric, that's all that's needed.
Having driven plenty of the latest gen PHEV and EV, I'm also yet to accept you can make a satisfying driver's EV, which is why I find the new Aston Martin Vantage a more interesting car than the latest Porsche Taycan Turbo S. It's interesting to see the almost complete lack of buyer's interest in the recent crop of electric hypercars, for example, which I think are a dead-end in marketing terms.
What I look for in an EV is clever engineering, as that translates into efficiency over general use. It's dead easy to make an EV fast (simply add more powerful motors) or have a decent range (fit a bigger battery) but efficiency in the form of miles per kWh travelled is much harder to do. One of the main reasons we ended up driving SUVs in the UK was because diesel made them affordable to run. I now want to see manufactures do the same for electric SUVs with clever engineering and I think styling might have to radically change as a Defender or G-Wagon body style is not a good starting point.
All of which brings us back to the Model 3, which I wanted to review because it is surprisingly efficient. Add in the Tesla Supercharger network and it's very easy to see why they are so popular in the marketplace. Legacy manufacturers are using their styling heritage to sell EVs but I think we still need a major efficiency breakthrough before sales really start to take off.
M4SER said:
Wow, Tesla Model 3 review has stoked up plenty of interesting debate, both on the channel and on here!
Regarding my focus on efficiency when reviewing the occasional EV, I do it because the sole reason behind the push to EV was to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions but the marketing focus on today's EVs seems to be all about performance, hence why we've ended up with 900bhp family SUVs like the Lotus Eletre. I don't see such vehicles as a great way to reverse climate change, it's time legislators stepped in with targets for EV efficiency, instead of pretending if it's powered solely by electric, that's all that's needed.
Having driven plenty of the latest gen PHEV and EV, I'm also yet to accept you can make a satisfying driver's EV, which is why I find the new Aston Martin Vantage a more interesting car than the latest Porsche Taycan Turbo S. It's interesting to see the almost complete lack of buyer's interest in the recent crop of electric hypercars, for example, which I think are a dead-end in marketing terms.
What I look for in an EV is clever engineering, as that translates into efficiency over general use. It's dead easy to make an EV fast (simply add more powerful motors) or have a decent range (fit a bigger battery) but efficiency in the form of miles per kWh travelled is much harder to do. One of the main reasons we ended up driving SUVs in the UK was because diesel made them affordable to run. I now want to see manufactures do the same for electric SUVs with clever engineering and I think styling might have to radically change as a Defender or G-Wagon body style is not a good starting point.
All of which brings us back to the Model 3, which I wanted to review because it is surprisingly efficient. Add in the Tesla Supercharger network and it's very easy to see why they are so popular in the marketplace. Legacy manufacturers are using their styling heritage to sell EVs but I think we still need a major efficiency breakthrough before sales really start to take off.
Yup but consideration has to be given to the reality that the slow switch to EV is taking a top down approach in order to reach the point where they are as cheap to make and run as their ICE comparators. That does mean that at the premium end buyers really don't care about ultimate efficiency but about other metrics such as convenience, comfort and performance. Regarding my focus on efficiency when reviewing the occasional EV, I do it because the sole reason behind the push to EV was to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions but the marketing focus on today's EVs seems to be all about performance, hence why we've ended up with 900bhp family SUVs like the Lotus Eletre. I don't see such vehicles as a great way to reverse climate change, it's time legislators stepped in with targets for EV efficiency, instead of pretending if it's powered solely by electric, that's all that's needed.
Having driven plenty of the latest gen PHEV and EV, I'm also yet to accept you can make a satisfying driver's EV, which is why I find the new Aston Martin Vantage a more interesting car than the latest Porsche Taycan Turbo S. It's interesting to see the almost complete lack of buyer's interest in the recent crop of electric hypercars, for example, which I think are a dead-end in marketing terms.
What I look for in an EV is clever engineering, as that translates into efficiency over general use. It's dead easy to make an EV fast (simply add more powerful motors) or have a decent range (fit a bigger battery) but efficiency in the form of miles per kWh travelled is much harder to do. One of the main reasons we ended up driving SUVs in the UK was because diesel made them affordable to run. I now want to see manufactures do the same for electric SUVs with clever engineering and I think styling might have to radically change as a Defender or G-Wagon body style is not a good starting point.
All of which brings us back to the Model 3, which I wanted to review because it is surprisingly efficient. Add in the Tesla Supercharger network and it's very easy to see why they are so popular in the marketplace. Legacy manufacturers are using their styling heritage to sell EVs but I think we still need a major efficiency breakthrough before sales really start to take off.
Tesla is the de facto leader at the lower end of the market and in that segment the efficiency does matter more and range certainly does along with remote charging infrastructure and when looking to compare it to other cars it's better to use things like the Korean cars and incumbent manufacturer's base EVs which they're trying to sell to households covering higher work mileages etc.
It makes more sense to compare the premium EVs to their petrol counterparts than to cheaper EVs as that's what they're competing against and aiming to replace. Taycan v V8 Panamera or the Lotus v Cayenne Turbo that sort of thing.
The question to be asking is whether the Lotus with its apparently very low efficiency is cheaper to fuel than a Cayenne Turbo and then whether the carbon derived from grid electricity is less than the carbon derived from combusting at source. If the Lotus creates less carbon output per mile than the Cayenne then it is doing what it is supposed to do, if not then it should be taxed accordingly and preferably taken out into a field and shot.
Meanwhile comparing the base Tesla to the Lotus or even that BMW has the same logic as comparing a Honda Jazz to a Range Rover and being both surprised and annoyed that the Jazz is more efficient.
M4SER said:
SWoll said:
And as above, if your priority is range you buy the LR. If your priority is cost you buy the RWD. You have choice.
The changes they've made to the performance in order to make it a better drivers car and distinct from the other models have affected efficiency, which seem a fair trade off to me. Assuming it'll still do 3-3.5 miles/kWh in the real world then 250 miles should be achievable, which IME is perfectly acceptable.
Harry's obsession with efficiency has never made any sense to me. Assuming you can charge at home then even the most inefficient EV is a cheap as chips to charge, and very few drivers are doing 200+ mile trips regularly enough for absolute range to be anything more than an occasional nuisance that can easily be planned for.
Wow, Tesla Model 3 review has stoked up plenty of interesting debate, both on the channel and on here!The changes they've made to the performance in order to make it a better drivers car and distinct from the other models have affected efficiency, which seem a fair trade off to me. Assuming it'll still do 3-3.5 miles/kWh in the real world then 250 miles should be achievable, which IME is perfectly acceptable.
Harry's obsession with efficiency has never made any sense to me. Assuming you can charge at home then even the most inefficient EV is a cheap as chips to charge, and very few drivers are doing 200+ mile trips regularly enough for absolute range to be anything more than an occasional nuisance that can easily be planned for.
Regarding my focus on efficiency when reviewing the occasional EV, I do it because the sole reason behind the push to EV was to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions but the marketing focus on today's EVs seems to be all about performance, hence why we've ended up with 900bhp family SUVs like the Lotus Eletre. I don't see such vehicles as a great way to reverse climate change, it's time legislators stepped in with targets for EV efficiency, instead of pretending if it's powered solely by electric, that's all that's needed.
Having driven plenty of the latest gen PHEV and EV, I'm also yet to accept you can make a satisfying driver's EV, which is why I find the new Aston Martin Vantage a more interesting car than the latest Porsche Taycan Turbo S. It's interesting to see the almost complete lack of buyer's interest in the recent crop of electric hypercars, for example, which I think are a dead-end in marketing terms.
What I look for in an EV is clever engineering, as that translates into efficiency over general use. It's dead easy to make an EV fast (simply add more powerful motors) or have a decent range (fit a bigger battery) but efficiency in the form of miles per kWh travelled is much harder to do. One of the main reasons we ended up driving SUVs in the UK was because diesel made them affordable to run. I now want to see manufactures do the same for electric SUVs with clever engineering and I think styling might have to radically change as a Defender or G-Wagon body style is not a good starting point.
All of which brings us back to the Model 3, which I wanted to review because it is surprisingly efficient. Add in the Tesla Supercharger network and it's very easy to see why they are so popular in the marketplace. Legacy manufacturers are using their styling heritage to sell EVs but I think we still need a major efficiency breakthrough before sales really start to take off.
IMO, the Merc EQXX is far more relevant in the grand scheme of things than anything Rimac or Lotus are churning out.
DonkeyApple said:
The question to be asking is whether the Lotus with its apparently very low efficiency is cheaper to fuel than a Cayenne Turbo and then whether the carbon derived from grid electricity is less than the carbon derived from combusting at source. If the Lotus creates less carbon output per mile than the Cayenne then it is doing what it is supposed to do, if not then it should be taxed accordingly and preferably taken out into a field and shot.
I think that's the point. Getting people to stop buying massive SUVs is another matter, but if they are going to do so it's better they are electric.Gad-Westy said:
IMO, the Merc EQXX is far more relevant in the grand scheme of things than anything Rimac or Lotus are churning out.
But ultimately just as pointless if no-one wants to buy one?Everyone knows how to build a more efficient EV. Keep it low, remove any aggressive styling queues, fit small enclosed wheels, remove as much weight as possible and limit performance. Basically the exact opposite of what a lot of buyers aspire to, so good luck selling them.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup but consideration has to be given to the reality that the slow switch to EV is taking a top down approach in order to reach the point where they are as cheap to make and run as their ICE comparators. That does mean that at the premium end buyers really don't care about ultimate efficiency but about other metrics such as convenience, comfort and performance.
For ICE vehicles I would agree, ultimate efficency is the last thing premium customers consider.However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
One other point relating the new Model 3 Performance is pricing.... £60k in the UK. So what? It's the new model, it's the new version, so it should cost a premium?
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
Green House gas emissions didn't really enter the equation when I signed on the proverbial for mine.
It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
EddieSteadyGo said:
One other point relating the new Model 3 Performance is pricing.... £60k in the UK. So what? It's the new model, it's the new version, so it should cost a premium?
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
It'll be priced based on what the market can stand. In the UK, that's quite a lot for a number of reasons. Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
ChocolateFrog said:
Green House gas emissions didn't really enter the equation when I signed on the proverbial for mine.
It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
Generous BIK and VED tax breaks would account for most, I would think. I suspect the majority only care about saving the environment as long as it doesn't cost them anything personally.It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
WestyCarl said:
For ICE vehicles I would agree, ultimate efficency is the last thing premium customers consider.
However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
Range and efficiency are two separate things. One will affect the running costs of the vehicle to every owner, the other will only affect those owners who use the car to drive further than the maximum on a trip and need to stop and charge before continuing. However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
The time taken charging is also affected by other factors. Maximum charge rate, charge curve etc. As an example our etron 55 had a similar range and efficiency to the Jaguar iPace, but as it could charge considerably quicker and more consistently a lot less time at a charger is needed to add the same additional range to the car.
EddieSteadyGo said:
One other point relating the new Model 3 Performance is pricing.... £60k in the UK. So what? It's the new model, it's the new version, so it should cost a premium?
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
In Portugal it's €55,990, which according to my bank right now would cost me £48350.33. Portugal has some of the biggest import duties on cars - cars there cost a small fortune, yet its £12k cheaper than the UK.Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
Dr Interceptor said:
In Portugal it's €55,990, which according to my bank right now would cost me £48350.33. Portugal has some of the biggest import duties on cars - cars there cost a small fortune, yet its £12k cheaper than the UK.
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union? Forester1965 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Wonder what the genuine reason is then that it's do much more expensive here.
Getting properly shafted.
If it was too cheap people wouldn't see it as a premium product and wouldn't buy it.Getting properly shafted.
ChocolateFrog said:
Wonder what the genuine reason is then that it's do much more expensive here.
Getting properly shafted.
Because it's not. With all the BIK schemes, etc. it won't cost any more or less in comparison with affordability. The UK has high levels of affordability. Getting properly shafted.
At least for major markets.
Sway said:
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union?
Because the Portuguese tax you twice... there isn't just IVA (VAT) at 23%, you have the Imposto sobre Vehiculos (ISV) tax, and then on top of all that you pay the road tax Imposto Único de Circulação (IUC).Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff