Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
EddieSteadyGo said:
One other point relating the new Model 3 Performance is pricing.... £60k in the UK. So what? It's the new model, it's the new version, so it should cost a premium?
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
It'll be priced based on what the market can stand. In the UK, that's quite a lot for a number of reasons. Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
ChocolateFrog said:
Green House gas emissions didn't really enter the equation when I signed on the proverbial for mine.
It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
Generous BIK and VED tax breaks would account for most, I would think. I suspect the majority only care about saving the environment as long as it doesn't cost them anything personally.It's nice that I can drive past a school without emitting any noxious gases but that's about it.
Would be interesting to see how many are bought with environmentalism as the foremost reason, less than 5% would be my guess.
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
WestyCarl said:
For ICE vehicles I would agree, ultimate efficency is the last thing premium customers consider.
However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
Range and efficiency are two separate things. One will affect the running costs of the vehicle to every owner, the other will only affect those owners who use the car to drive further than the maximum on a trip and need to stop and charge before continuing. However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
The time taken charging is also affected by other factors. Maximum charge rate, charge curve etc. As an example our etron 55 had a similar range and efficiency to the Jaguar iPace, but as it could charge considerably quicker and more consistently a lot less time at a charger is needed to add the same additional range to the car.
EddieSteadyGo said:
One other point relating the new Model 3 Performance is pricing.... £60k in the UK. So what? It's the new model, it's the new version, so it should cost a premium?
Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
In Portugal it's €55,990, which according to my bank right now would cost me £48350.33. Portugal has some of the biggest import duties on cars - cars there cost a small fortune, yet its £12k cheaper than the UK.Except in most countries in Europe the price for the same car is 56k-58k euros which is the equivalent of circa £48-£50k. That is 20% less.
And they have similar VAT and import duty rates.
Maybe the reason is because they are LHD and we are RHD? Everyone knows manufactures need to charge a premium for RHD.... well in Ireland, which of course is also RHD, the price there is only £52k. And that only more expensive than other European countries because it includes a hefty 4,200 euros of registration tax.
Dr Interceptor said:
In Portugal it's €55,990, which according to my bank right now would cost me £48350.33. Portugal has some of the biggest import duties on cars - cars there cost a small fortune, yet its £12k cheaper than the UK.
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union? 
Forester1965 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Wonder what the genuine reason is then that it's do much more expensive here.
Getting properly shafted.
If it was too cheap people wouldn't see it as a premium product and wouldn't buy it.Getting properly shafted.
ChocolateFrog said:
Wonder what the genuine reason is then that it's do much more expensive here.
Getting properly shafted.
Because it's not. With all the BIK schemes, etc. it won't cost any more or less in comparison with affordability. The UK has high levels of affordability. Getting properly shafted.
At least for major markets.
Sway said:
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union?
Because the Portuguese tax you twice... there isn't just IVA (VAT) at 23%, you have the Imposto sobre Vehiculos (ISV) tax, and then on top of all that you pay the road tax Imposto Único de Circulação (IUC).Forester1965 said:
If it was too cheap people wouldn't see it as a premium product and wouldn't buy it.
Is this 'Stella' marketing... reassuringly expensive 
In reality, we have seen this type of differential pricing before from Tesla. It doesn't last. The Model 3 switch over to the 'highland' version has been much slower than expected. That has limited RHD supply. They have responded by keeping UK finance rates expensive on the Model 3 (to match supply to demand). And now with this new performance model they have reverted to the same +£10k difference they used previously a few years ago.
However, US finance rates have just been reduced on the Model 3. Production rate on the Model 3 looks now to getting back to normal. Availability is soon not going to be an issue. And when that happens with Tesla, we know what happens next....
Therefore, I'd suggest within a few months we will see UK pricing brought back pretty much into line with everywhere else in Europe.
M4SER said:
Having driven plenty of the latest gen PHEV and EV, I'm also yet to accept you can make a satisfying driver's EV, which is why I find the new Aston Martin Vantage a more interesting car than the latest Porsche Taycan Turbo S. It's interesting to see the almost complete lack of buyer's interest in the recent crop of electric hypercars, for example, which I think are a dead-end in marketing terms
Be interested in a IONIC 5 N review to see if they have cracked it.SWoll said:
WestyCarl said:
For ICE vehicles I would agree, ultimate efficency is the last thing premium customers consider.
However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
Range and efficiency are two separate things. One will affect the running costs of the vehicle to every owner, the other will only affect those owners who use the car to drive further than the maximum on a trip and need to stop and charge before continuing. However for EV, "ultimate efficency" means potentially less time at some bland service station outside Reading waiting for the vehicle to charge.
Off course the lack of "efficency" (or range as it used to be refered to) can be offset by a bigger battery, but this just means longer charrging times when you need to.
The time taken charging is also affected by other factors. Maximum charge rate, charge curve etc. As an example our etron 55 had a similar range and efficiency to the Jaguar iPace, but as it could charge considerably quicker and more consistently a lot less time at a charger is needed to add the same additional range to the car.
The lotus Eltre has very poor efficency and thus crap ~200m range depsite a huge battery.
The Tesla M3 (different class of car I know) has ~300m range with a better approx 50% the size of the Lotus.
Yes battery charging is affected by many things, not just specifications but also the charger, temp, etc. But as a rough generalistion if you vehicle is more efficient with a smaller battery it'll likely take less time to charge.
I really don't know who is going to Purchase the Lotus except a di hard lotus fan.
As Harry points out a few posts above, EVs must get smaller and more effecient. That will require legislation.
A few years ago I wanted to buy/lease a Renault Twizy. It would make perfect sense for the school run and local getting about. I went for a test drive, I thought it was okay, my daughter loved it. I looked at prices. They were insane - apart from the battery rental the lease (£49pcm) prices were absurd. The saleman said that the companies were unsure what the residuals would be, and the Govt didn't give it the then available EV car discounts. Given the outright purchase price, any normal equivalent car would have been leased at c.£130pcm. The Twizy was double that per month. It should have been an easy financial win, a no-brainer - lease a little electric local runaround for the price of two tankfuls of petrol.
I walked away. What a shame.
BTW, miles per kwh on a Twizy are apparently 8.36. The Tesla is considered pretty good, if not the best at 4.5.
A few years ago I wanted to buy/lease a Renault Twizy. It would make perfect sense for the school run and local getting about. I went for a test drive, I thought it was okay, my daughter loved it. I looked at prices. They were insane - apart from the battery rental the lease (£49pcm) prices were absurd. The saleman said that the companies were unsure what the residuals would be, and the Govt didn't give it the then available EV car discounts. Given the outright purchase price, any normal equivalent car would have been leased at c.£130pcm. The Twizy was double that per month. It should have been an easy financial win, a no-brainer - lease a little electric local runaround for the price of two tankfuls of petrol.
I walked away. What a shame.
BTW, miles per kwh on a Twizy are apparently 8.36. The Tesla is considered pretty good, if not the best at 4.5.
It’s been several years now that Tesla has been in the marketplace with cars that have (relatively) light weight, outstanding straight line performance and very good efficiency, coupled to an unrivalled charging network.
And yet here we are many years later with the legacy manufacturers still miles behind.
Just think if, as a starting point, Stellantis VAG and JLR clubbed together and developed a European network of chargers like Tesla? That could move take-up massively forward.
And yet here we are many years later with the legacy manufacturers still miles behind.
Just think if, as a starting point, Stellantis VAG and JLR clubbed together and developed a European network of chargers like Tesla? That could move take-up massively forward.
Dr Interceptor said:
Sway said:
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union?
Because the Portuguese tax you twice... there isn't just IVA (VAT) at 23%, you have the Imposto sobre Vehiculos (ISV) tax, and then on top of all that you pay the road tax Imposto Único de Circulação (IUC).732NM said:
Dr Interceptor said:
Sway said:
How does Portugal have different import tariffs to the rest of the Customs Union?
Because the Portuguese tax you twice... there isn't just IVA (VAT) at 23%, you have the Imposto sobre Vehiculos (ISV) tax, and then on top of all that you pay the road tax Imposto Único de Circulação (IUC).732NM said:
So no extra import taxes then. It's the same rate throughout the EU at the point of import.
I would be surprised if import into country is actual step when tax is applied. Based on EU rules correct point would be when car is taken into constant use at public roads. That's when Imposto sobre Vehiculos (ISV) tax should kick in. If it is in fact at point when car is brought into Portugal that is wrong time to do it. But on most cases this makes no difference as cars are brought in to be used on the roads.If one just wants nice garden ornament and brings in Ferrari for such use only local VAT is ok and only if it wasn't already paid to some other EU country or car is newish one. There is under 6 months and under 6k km's driven rule for when VAT needs to be paid on also used imports. If it kicks in VAT paid to source country should be paid back on export to prevent double VAT payments.
Importing cars from one EU country to another is pretty much one way street until they are at least 15+ years old. Cars are sold new on certain countries which only collect VAT and don't have any meaningful registration taxes. VAT is also many times on low side among EU countries. Once car is over 6 months and 6k km's old then its moved more easily to high VAT and possibly high registration tax countries. Depending on local ISV style that tax obviously needs to be paid but for EV's it can be 0.00 euros when tax is based on CO2 emissions. Therefore many fairly new EV's moves around from country to country. For them EU is truly single market when ICE cars have limitations which make moving them around more difficult and expensive.
WestyCarl said:
Range and efficency are seperatre but are linked.
The lotus Eltre has very poor efficency and thus crap ~200m range depsite a huge battery.
The Tesla M3 (different class of car I know) has ~300m range with a better approx 50% the size of the Lotus.
Yes battery charging is affected by many things, not just specifications but also the charger, temp, etc. But as a rough generalistion if you vehicle is more efficient with a smaller battery it'll likely take less time to charge.
I really don't know who is going to Purchase the Lotus except a di hard lotus fan.
Again though, a 200 mile range is only crap if you intend to do trips of more than that on a regular basis. From a running cost perspective the difference between a car doing 2 miles/kWh (bad) and 4 miles/kWh (good) on an EV home charging tariff works out at £250 or less over 10k miles, so bugger all in the grand scheme of things. The lotus Eltre has very poor efficency and thus crap ~200m range depsite a huge battery.
The Tesla M3 (different class of car I know) has ~300m range with a better approx 50% the size of the Lotus.
Yes battery charging is affected by many things, not just specifications but also the charger, temp, etc. But as a rough generalistion if you vehicle is more efficient with a smaller battery it'll likely take less time to charge.
I really don't know who is going to Purchase the Lotus except a di hard lotus fan.
You'll usually find that the EV's with the smaller batteries and higher efficiency numbers take longer to charge as have lower maximum charging speeds and worse charge curves BTW.
ChocolateFrog said:
Most manufacturers won't make what they can't sell.
Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
I don’t like Honda’s chances of selling many of those - it just isn’t a Jazz or a Civic Type R or a CR-V - it’s a nothing from what I have seen and read, and no better than any of it’s distinctly underwhelming direct competitors. Could be another nail in the coffin for Honda in the UK if there are no follow-up EVs soon. Will probably sell well in parts of Asia and in a few other locations around the globe.Look at Honda, they've made some cracking cars like the first Insight and the Honda E but the one they're going to make money on will be that stupidly named one that costs £200pm. ENy.1 or something like that.
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