Spitfire the plane that saved the world

[Eric Mc]

TEKNOPUG said:

Probably a truer statement to say “RR Merlin – the engine that saved the World” or “P-15, the plane that won the war”

P-15?



I presume you meant P-51



I'd still go with the C-47. After World War 2, Dwight Eisenhower was asked what particular weapons won the war. He replied - "the bazooka, together with the atom bomb, the jeep, and the C-47 transport and cargo plane".

[TEKNOPUG]

ash73 said:

aeropilot said:

It was never really in their plan to invade UK either, sure they would have have done so, had they destroyed the RAF, but, even then, there was still the matter of the Royal Navy for them to deal with, and the RN even in 1940 was still, a very serious threat to them, even with no air cover which would have taken a heavy toll on the fleet, it would still have dealt a mortal blown to any German invasion attempt.

RN ships in the channel with no air cover? It would be shooting fish in a barrel, the entire fleet would be sunk in a matter of hours. It's not like the Pacific where they had to search thousands of square miles to find the enemy and attack with a couple of squadrons from a flat-top, the entire German air force would be flying repeat sorties from dozens of runways just a few miles away.

An invasion fleet of 20 infantary divisions (the majority non-motorised and using horses) being towed across the Channel from Holland, in Rhine river barges? The Home Fleet consisted of 9 Battleships, 4 Aircraft Carriers, 20 Heavy Cruisers, 80+ Destroyers plus Submarines and all manner of other smaller ships. They wouldn't even need to fire their guns, just simply plough through the invasion fleet and their wash would sink the barges.

[TEKNOPUG]

Eric Mc said:

P-15?



I presume you meant P-51



I'd still go with the C-47. After World War 2, Dwight Eisenhower was asked what particular weapons won the war. He replied - "the bazooka, together with the atom bomb, the jeep, and the C-47 transport and cargo plane".

Typo was just for you.

I'd argue that the P-51 was instrumental in the destruction of the Luftwaffe and air supremacy in Western Europe. Without which D-Day and subsequent victory in Western Europe would have been in doubt. But you can't really make a case for just a single aircraft.

[Eric Mc]

What was the status of the French, Italian, Dutch, Danish and Norwegian navies in June 1940?

How much access would the German High Command have had to the navies of conquered nations or new allies, such as Italy?

[TEKNOPUG]

warch said:

Europa1 said:

aeropilot said:

But I thing you need to check your facts as to the US saving us, as I think you'll find that the USA didn't get involved until 12 months AFTER Germany had called off any invasion attempt of the UK, and 6 months after Germany had turned its attention to the east......and then only because Japan made the decision for them.

I think you'll find the US was supporting Britain and her allies before Pearl Harbor.

This was predominantly for business reasons, the US made a huge amount of money out of supplying weapons and materials in both World Wars, there was no sentiment to this, the UK only recently (2006) finished paying the U.S. back the debt we owed after the Second World War. Some sort of special relationship indeed.

And example of which was after the fall of France and Dunkirk, the British were keen to rearm and replace their losses quickly, so they placed an order with the US armament firms. They refused to accept until we had paid for a previous French order that was now clearly not going to be settled. So we had to first pay the bill for French arms, that were never even delivered as we had no use for them, before then paying for the order we actually placed!

There are other examples of US industry ignoring any "war effort" in pursuit of profit. Such as the aforementioned P-51 being delayed for a year because US firms already had their order books full for building the P-40 and didn't want to take losses for retooling production for the P-51.

[TEKNOPUG]

Eric Mc said:

What was the status of the French, Italian, Dutch, Danish and Norwegian navies in June 1940?

How much access would the German High Command have had to the navies of conquered nations or new allies, such as Italy?

We sunk the French Navy on the 3rd July.

We sunk the Italian Navy on the 11th November (it would have had to get past the RN Mediterranean fleet, round the Bay of Biscay and back through the Channel to have offered any assistance. Mussolini never would have agreed to that).

No one else had any Navy of note that hadn't already allied itself to the UK and either sailed it's ships into UK waters or scuttled them.

Probably a discussion for another thread (again).

[Dr Jekyll]

ash73 said:

RN ships in the channel with no air cover? It would be shooting fish in a barrel, the entire fleet would be sunk in a matter of hours. It's not like the Pacific where they had to search thousands of square miles to find the enemy and attack with a couple of squadrons from a flat-top, the entire German air force would be flying repeat sorties from dozens of runways just a few miles away.

The plan also called for the Luftwaffe to support the invading troops, attack British supply lines, fight off the remains of the RAF and drop paratroops so not the entire German air force.


Incidentally the DC3 was used by Japan and Germany as well as the allies.

[warch]

Eric Mc said:

After World War 2, Dwight Eisenhower was asked what particular weapons won the war. He replied - "the bazooka, together with the atom bomb, the jeep, and the C-47 transport and cargo plane".

Was there a particular reason he only mentioned US made (or claimed, nuclear bombs were designed by an international team) weapons or equipment? Although I suppose he was making the point that transport and logistics were just as essential to the war effort as front line weapons and armour.

[Eric Mc]

North American Aviation built the P-51. Curtiss built the P-40. The problem for the P-51 was that the US Army had already placed huge (by the standards of the time) orders with Curtiss for the P-40 and were not really interested in the P-51. At this time, don't forget, the P-51 was fitted with the Allison V12 - the same engine that was in the P-40. So the Army could not see any real advantage of this early version of the P-51 over the P-40.

The one big advantage the P-51 had at this time was range - but the US Army didn't really see the need for a long range fighter over and above the one they had already ordered, the Lockheed P-38 Lightning.

The P-51 was really a British project and it (together with a massive order for Harvards) really helped establish North American Aviation as a big player in the US aircraft manufacturing scene. Of course, when the P-51 was fitted with the Merlin (another British initiative) it really did become a war winning weapon.

Edited by Eric Mc on Thursday 27th September 14:06

[Eric Mc]

warch said:

Eric Mc said:

After World War 2, Dwight Eisenhower was asked what particular weapons won the war. He replied - "the bazooka, together with the atom bomb, the jeep, and the C-47 transport and cargo plane".

Was there a particular reason he only mentioned US made (or claimed, nuclear bombs were designed by an international team) weapons or equipment? Although I suppose he was making the point that transport and logistics were just as essential to the war effort as front line weapons and armour.

I am sure that is what he was intimating. I think he also mentioned the Liberty Ship in another interview.

[Halmyre]

ash73 said:

aeropilot said:

It was never really in their plan to invade UK either, sure they would have have done so, had they destroyed the RAF, but, even then, there was still the matter of the Royal Navy for them to deal with, and the RN even in 1940 was still, a very serious threat to them, even with no air cover which would have taken a heavy toll on the fleet, it would still have dealt a mortal blown to any German invasion attempt.

RN ships in the channel with no air cover? It would be shooting fish in a barrel, the entire fleet would be sunk in a matter of hours. It's not like the Pacific where they had to search thousands of square miles to find the enemy and attack with a couple of squadrons from a flat-top, the entire German air force would be flying repeat sorties from dozens of runways just a few miles away.

Nope; the RAF isn't wiped out, at most they withdraw to airfields beyond the range of the fighter escorts.

Anyway, we don't need the RAF. The Luftwaffe didn't have an effective anti-shipping strategy. They didn't have effective armour-piercing bombs at that time. The more lightly AA-armed destroyers would have been hard to hit and the more heavily armed big ships would have shot them out of the sky whilst their main armament was pounding the invasion fleet.

Honestly, Sealion has been done to death and, short of supernatural or alien intervention, there's no scenario that doesn't end in the German forces getting very wet and/or dead.

[Eric Mc]

Hitler hoped that the UK would see sense and sue for some sort of peace terms.

[TEKNOPUG]

Eric Mc said:

Hitler hoped that the UK would see sense and sue for some sort of peace terms.

He forgot though that ‘If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.’

[Halmyre]

ash73 said:

Halmyre said:

They didn't have effective armour-piercing bombs at that time.

That's a myth.

Whatever; they're not going to be much use in any case.

[gazapc]

Completely agree about Sealion. It was a haphazard plan to try and force a peace.

Even when they wargamed it all umpires agreed it was a complete failure. Sure it might have been a bit bloody but there was no way the RN home fleet would either sit idle or be entirely sunk by the limited Luftwaffe anti shipping forces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion...

[XCP]

At 35 knots the wash from a destroyer would sink a barge, or more likely a string of them. The idea that a German invasion could have succeeded is a joke.

[Halmyre]

ash73 said:

Halmyre said:

ash73 said:

Halmyre said:

They didn't have effective armour-piercing bombs at that time.

That's a myth.

Whatever; they're not going to be much use in any case.

The RN lost six destroyers at Dunkirk, with a fully operational RAF flying constant sorties with hundreds of aircraft to protect them. We're discussing a (fictional) scenario where the RAF has been destroyed and German bombers could rearm and return to the targets unopposed in minutes; the RN would be obliterated!

There's a difference between attacking ships stopped in the water and attacking ships steaming through the waves at 20-odd knots.

[XCP]

Halmyre said:

There's a difference between attacking ships stopped in the water and attacking ships steaming through the waves at 20-odd knots.

Agreed. The 6 destroyers lost at Dunkirk were out of 39 deployed. The Home Fleet had 50. Even if the Germans got lucky and sank 10, there would be plenty left. Not to mention cruisers and other craft. The Germans would not have stood a chance.

[louiechevy]

After Dunkirk and the failure of Hitler to force us either to sue for peace or outright surender he had basically lost the war, the decision to continue with the planned invasion of Russia the following year just reinforced that result. Then after pearl harbour and his decision to declare war on America bringing them directly into the European theater just dictated how badly they were going to lose. They didn't even adopt a war footing for their manufacturing until late in 1943 it's almost like he didn't want to win!

[peterperkins]

TEKNOPUG said:

He forgot though that ‘If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.’

Brilliant..