White House Farm murders - ITV series

[Welshbeef]

End of the day let’s hope there isn’t an innocent man in jail and the real killer either owed on that day or worse still is still out there possibly now living in the house owning the huge farm and caravan park lock stock.

I’d find it e trembly odd if I was clearing my parents house then a cousin came round to ask what I was doing with the kit. It’s utterly irrelevant to them and for them to then go to the police is quickly tell them to foxtrot Oscar.

[Welshbeef]

[redacted]

[Derek Smith]

Welshbeef said:

But the local public only have what the press feed them - there is no factual evidence (as the police destroyed anything which might have been useful).

No witnesses
Only 1 persons word about statements he had made to her

Also generally history is written by the victors.

It’s also very unusual that the lady who lives now in the farm the one who flagged concerns go that copper has apparently been tight lipped about it from the end of the court case to date /ongoing. She benefitted hugely £ wise she lost distant relatives and she flagged a few things ie the window latch - that she clearly knew about. What was her alibi?

Firstly, we've only seen the TV series. There is no requirement for it to be factual. There is no requirement for the alibi of all suspects to be recounted. The intent is to entertain, and I think they hit that button.

To take up a point raised by a number of posters; there is nothing poor or bad about circumstantial evidence. It's how cases were proved before the use of scientists became the norm.

Witnesses to planned murders are infrequent.

There was lots of corroborative evidence produced in the trial so it wasn’t just on person’s word against another’s.

What the case revolved around was that Bamber's story was full of holes. There were a number of facts that could not be explained in his version.

[AshVX220]

Welshbeef said:

But the local public only have what the press feed them - there is no factual evidence (as the police destroyed anything which might have been useful).

No witnesses
Only 1 persons word about statements he had made to her

Also generally history is written by the victors.


It’s also very unusual that the lady who lives now in the farm the one who flagged concerns go that copper has apparently been tight lipped about it from the end of the court case to date /ongoing. She benefitted hugely £ wise she lost distant relatives and she flagged a few things ie the window latch - that she clearly knew about. What was her alibi?

It wouldn't be the cousin, if it was the cousin why did Neville phone Jeremy and say it was Bambi?
It is literally one of two people, either Bambi or Jeremy. Based on the phone call Jeremy said he received.

It appears that Bambi couldn't have killed herself with the silencer on, wouldn't have been able to carry the required number of rounds in the clothes she was wearing. The killings couldn't have been done with the silencer off, so at least all the killings were done with it on. Why then, did she remove it? because she couldn't commit suicide with it on....so, why hide it? Just take it off and do the deed.

I guess that a lot of the TV show is based on what is known, with some stuff thrown in for dramatic purposes. if the character of Bamber was played well by the actor based on what is known then he was definitely behaving in a very odd manor.

From what I've read and seen I'm in no doubt it was Jeremy.

[Gerradi]

It does state at the begining that some material is only there for dramatic purposes...

[The Don of Croy]

Great drama - good viewing...up until that final sweep through the crime photos of each victim.

Five members of one family slaughtered in their own home. WTAF indeed.

(I would add that the post-pool warm down in St Tropez looks fun).

[Welshbeef]

AshVX220 said:

It wouldn't be the cousin, if it was the cousin why did Neville phone Jeremy and say it was Bambi?
It is literally one of two people, either Bambi or Jeremy. Based on the phone call Jeremy said he received.

It appears that Bambi couldn't have killed herself with the silencer on, wouldn't have been able to carry the required number of rounds in the clothes she was wearing. The killings couldn't have been done with the silencer off, so at least all the killings were done with it on. Why then, did she remove it? because she couldn't commit suicide with it on....so, why hide it? Just take it off and do the deed.

I guess that a lot of the TV show is based on what is known, with some stuff thrown in for dramatic purposes. if the character of Bamber was played well by the actor based on what is known then he was definitely behaving in a very odd manor.

From what I've read and seen I'm in no doubt it was Jeremy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/19/serial-killer-jeremy-bamber-claims-new-telephone-call-evidence/amp/


How do you know she killed everyone wearing what she was found in? You assume this what if she was wearing clothes or a side ammo bag to do it then took that lot off.

“Hiding” the silencer - there is no court admissible evidence which proves it was used that night so irrelevant.

As for who not the cousin who knows they may have had a pact together. In the same way the Barrymore 9 have a pact together where no one will talk and in so doing the court will simply not jail 9 on possible murder.

[AshVX220]

Welshbeef said:

AshVX220 said:

It wouldn't be the cousin, if it was the cousin why did Neville phone Jeremy and say it was Bambi?
It is literally one of two people, either Bambi or Jeremy. Based on the phone call Jeremy said he received.

It appears that Bambi couldn't have killed herself with the silencer on, wouldn't have been able to carry the required number of rounds in the clothes she was wearing. The killings couldn't have been done with the silencer off, so at least all the killings were done with it on. Why then, did she remove it? because she couldn't commit suicide with it on....so, why hide it? Just take it off and do the deed.

I guess that a lot of the TV show is based on what is known, with some stuff thrown in for dramatic purposes. if the character of Bamber was played well by the actor based on what is known then he was definitely behaving in a very odd manor.

From what I've read and seen I'm in no doubt it was Jeremy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/19/serial-killer-jeremy-bamber-claims-new-telephone-call-evidence/amp/


How do you know she killed everyone wearing what she was found in? You assume this what if she was wearing clothes or a side ammo bag to do it then took that lot off.

“Hiding” the silencer - there is no court admissible evidence which proves it was used that night so irrelevant.

As for who not the cousin who knows they may have had a pact together. In the same way the Barrymore 9 have a pact together where no one will talk and in so doing the court will simply not jail 9 on possible murder.

Yep, all good points, however on the silencer, you couldn't have commited the act without it, guns are loud and after 2-3 shots everyone in the house would have been awoken and alert to what was going on. Whoever did it, could not have done so without a silencer of some sort.

[Welshbeef]

AshVX220 said:

Yep, all good points, however on the silencer, you couldn't have commited the act without it, guns are loud and after 2-3 shots everyone in the house would have been awoken and alert to what was going on. Whoever did it, could not have done so without a silencer of some sort.

Could the two boys have been injections of insulin - overdose the drug that cannot be traced. So if the boys were then out of action it’s then only shooting the Mum and Dad.

[Muzzer79]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Now you're really pulling at straws


The phone call from the father to Jeremy is key.

Either it happened and it was Sheila who killed everyone

Or it didn't and Jeremy lied, ergo it was him.

The phone call leads to the question of why a man who was under attack in his house phoned his son and not 999 and then why the son subsequently phoned the local police station and not 999.

Finally, I can't see how Neville, a reasonably fit 6 footer, was overpowered by Sheila in the kitchen having made a phone call with a bullet wound in his mouth.

[cuprabob]

I really enjoyed it and the crime scene photos at the end really struck home the horrific nature of the crime.

[Mr-B]

For me the most questionable thing was the "suicide" victim with multiple gun wounds, does happen (according to the story) but rarer than a rare thing combined with the silencer making the gun too long for the job (hence removed), just doesn't add up to be credible. So if it wasn't her who was it? Jeremy's story relied on that phone call as a key part and then phoning the local station not 999, who TF does that in an emergency?

[Flumpo]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Doesn’t jb defence team claim Neville DID phone the police? I thought the records showed x2 cars were dispatched one based on jb call and one based on Neville.

There is also apparently a radio log which supports this as one of the logged calls refers to a daughter and the other jb one refers to a sister.

Of course I think that’s from job defence team and website. So if you take the stance he’s lying, then this is also a lie.

The problem for me is the police messed up. They decided it was Sheila and dug in. Destroying evidence and making a real investigation impossible.

I think once they decided jb had done it they seem to have equally dug in, destroyed evidence and made a real investigation impossible.

I think he probably did it, but it’s such a mess that I don’t think I could find him guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

There isn’t a single personal involved in this who doesn’t come out badly.

[Welshbeef]

And what if it was neither the daughter or JB if it was another.


I’m sure he did it as he had a majority ruling on it so trust their judgement and they saw all the facts. However the facts presented in this show plus the Bamber show a few years ago showing new evidence that it wasn’t him I’d really struggle to be putting a man inside for life no parole, more to the point I’d be looking at who’s really gained in all this £ wise. Of those who finally got the £ was it them really turning up the dial on JB.... maybe with validity or maybe as a ploy.

[nikaiyo2]

AshVX220 said:

It appears that Bambi couldn't have killed herself with the silencer on, wouldn't have been able to carry the required number of rounds in the clothes she was wearing. The killings couldn't have been done with the silencer off, so at least all the killings were done with it on. Why then, did she remove it? because she couldn't commit suicide with it on....so, why hide it? Just take it off and do the deed.

From what I've read and seen I'm in no doubt it was Jeremy.

Really enjoyed the show, up to a point. It was a bit like watching Vera and it ending with “well pet one of them did it...not sure who.”

The thing that bothers me about the silencer, you are right, a rational person would take it off and do the deed but I would imagine a person who has just shot dead their parents and children are not behaving in a rational manner.

Derek, (or other policey types) if you had taken this case to court with the evidence as presented would you have expected to get a conviction?

[Derek Smith]

nikaiyo2 said:

Derek, (or other policey types) if you had taken this case to court with the evidence as presented would you have expected to get a conviction?

I doubt anyone can make a qualatitive judgement without seeing the evidence in full; the disclosure. It would have been an interesting case to give evidence in. Oddly enough, I used to frquently be sick, that's once a case, when the evidence was overwhelming as that would mean that the defence would have to come up with some weird and wonderful unexpected questions. With this case, you'd be able to predict what questions you'd be asked. So much more comfortable as you could prepare for it.

I was on a course with an Essex ex-DS at the time of the trial, and he took a lot of stick, although he was quietly confident of a guilty verdict. He was less quiet about the handling of the case, but said that once the team was allowed to investigate the murder, they did their job well and quickly, getting a lot of evidence that you'd have thought would have been lost. They negated a lot of what they thought Bamber's defence would exploit.

Not a great advert for the English police though.

[Tyre Smoke]

Welshbeef said:

And what if it was neither the daughter or JB if it was another.


I’m sure he did it as he had a majority ruling on it so trust their judgement and they saw all the facts. However the facts presented in this show plus the Bamber show a few years ago showing new evidence that it wasn’t him I’d really struggle to be putting a man inside for life no parole, more to the point I’d be looking at who’s really gained in all this £ wise. Of those who finally got the £ was it them really turning up the dial on JB.... maybe with validity or maybe as a ploy.

It must have been Jeremy Bamber. He displayed extreme sociopathic and psychotic behaviour during the discovery and afterwards. The father could not have been able to make a coherent telephone conversation with two bullets in the mouth, one of which shot away half his tongue. The daughter had never fired a gun before, only Bamber stated she had, yet she calmly fired 20+ shots, all on target. She then removed the silencer and walked down stairs and placed it in a cupboard before walking back upstairs and shooting herself. Twice. Plus she would have needed to reload at least twice, yet carried no means of holding spare bullets. Bamber also placed a call to the local police station after looking up the number in the phone book. This, after his father had rung him stating his sister had 'gone beserk' with a rifle? He then phoned his girlfriend, before heading over to the farm. Very odd behaviour indeed. He also admitted breaking and entering the property, despite having a key. He only displayed emotion when shown pictures of the bodies or murder scenes. Also, his behaviour after the funerals was 'celebratory' rather than mourning. Yes, his girlfriend sold her story to the NotW, yes his cousins stood to gain from his conviction, but none displayed the behaviour he did. If I had been framed for murder of my entire immediate family, I would not have been holding house parties or going for a jolly to St Tropez. I certainly wouldn't be arrogantly challenging the prosecution to prove I did it in court. And three appeals have all failed. Three.

[V8covin]

The actress who played Jeremy's girlfriend looked a lot like an ex of mine

Edited by V8covin on Friday 14th February 11:09

[Beauford]

If you have any doubts about the safety of Bamber's conviction, I urge you to Google 'R v Bamber Appeal' and read the last Appeal Court decision in its entirety. All of the so-called 'doubtful' issues are addressed in great detail and are dismissed with full explanations. Two further matters were identified by the Court not even addressed by the prosecution: the bible beside Sheila's corpse was moved after her death and her nightdress was pulled up beneath her, showing that her body had been repositioned after her death.
The prosecution case was very strong and Bamber's conviction is safe; he is exactly where he needs to be and IMV should never be released.

[AshVX220]

Flumpo said:

Doesn’t jb defence team claim Neville DID phone the police? I thought the records showed x2 cars were dispatched one based on jb call and one based on Neville.

There is also apparently a radio log which supports this as one of the logged calls refers to a daughter and the other jb one refers to a sister.

Of course I think that’s from job defence team and website. So if you take the stance he’s lying, then this is also a lie.

The problem for me is the police messed up. They decided it was Sheila and dug in. Destroying evidence and making a real investigation impossible.

I think once they decided jb had done it they seem to have equally dug in, destroyed evidence and made a real investigation impossible.

I think he probably did it, but it’s such a mess that I don’t think I could find him guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

There isn’t a single personal involved in this who doesn’t come out badly.

I think the copper who was played by Mark Addy (if the drama is close to reality) comes out well to be honest, to see the flaw in the investigation and continue to push for a more thorough investigation. However, my bias and his bias may be hindering my view on it.