Confronting Holocaust Denial: BBC2

[stuartmmcfc]

Ayahuasca said:

Indeed, or the millions killed by Stalin and Mao.

But, the Holocaust is different from those genocides because it was industrialised, organised, documented, legalised, cold blooded murder and an attempt to exterminate a whole people.

And also many of us will know people who’s relatives were affected by the Holocaust.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

rdjohn said:

If the memorials had been to remember the whole 11-million, then it would have been easier to call out these deniers as being just plain antiemetic.

I think the fact that they do nothing but bang on about Jews this and Jews that, makes it pretty easy to call them out as plain antisemitic. I have literally never heard a holocaust denier talk about any other group involved apart from Jews. Holocaust denial is all about hating Jews.

[Esceptico]

rdjohn said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

This may be true, but people who don't like gypsies, or communists, or the disabled, or other groups who suffered, tend not to deny the holocaust. Holocaust denial is always an antisemitic thing. That moron with the guitar wasn't singing about Scandinavian women and how they've benefited from spreading the holocaust myth. It wouldn't occur to him. He hates Jews, that's the sole basis of his idiocy.

It’s difficult to make this point without sounding like the moron with the guitar.

The Holocaust was against 11-million people, 6-million of whom were Jews. I am not aware of any significant memorials to the other 5-million, so, 70-years on, it is now thought of as only a Jewish Holocaust. Baddiel himself was critical of UK government papers that used generic terms to describe what had happened to people, rather than refer to Jews specifically.

If the memorials had been to remember the whole 11-million, then it would have been easier to call out these deniers as being just plain antiemetic.

I apologise if I have offended anyone with this point.

Yes the Jews were not the only ones to suffer but where does the figure of 5 million other victims come from? It is quoted in the linked article which then gives examples with low numbers of different groups being persecuted that don’t get close to 5 million. The final solution was specifically for the Jews not other victims of the regime, who were also killed but killed on the side.

[Esceptico]

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/...

Actually the 5 million seems to be an underestimate of the number of victims but the majority seem to be soviet and polish citizens or prisoners of war and the numbers include those killed by military actions. The industrial killing in extermination camps seems to have been reserved mainly for the Jews.

[Halb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Sl...

The NAZIs had a harder time of it when they were being pushed back to the West by the Soviet strike back, because they had killed so many peoples in European USSR, mostly the slavs.

[Ahonen]

Olas said:

People will never stop talking about the 6 million lives lost to the holocaust.

Are the 30 million Africans killed by Leopold of Belgium worth a mention? 5x the deaths and nobody ever villifies Leopold.

I wasn't aware of this so I just looked it up. It was apparently 10 million, not 30.

[ClaphamGT3]

Jukebag said:

Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.

You are right to say that, in our free society, people are perfectly at liberty to deny the holocaust.

Other people are equally entitled to call them deeply offensive, deluded simpletons.

[ClaphamGT3]

Dont like rolls said:

ash73 said:

Interesting programme but not sure why the Irish idiot was given any air time, what's the point? People like him should be ridiculed, not taken seriously. I guess it's difficult to joke about something so serious.

The British intelligence memo was eye opening.

Exactly, there we a few snippets of "proof" (which are well known so hardly a revelation) and the rest was flat, unconnected and poorly presented.
A shame and a waste, the BBC could have made a great program but it decided to do the "Celebrity Presents" thing (dumbed down and typical these days), as a historical subject presenter he was very very average and the program was no better than a A level student could present.

Imagine what an experienced historical presenter like Lucy Worsley may have achieved.

Edited by Dont like rolls on Tuesday 18th February 21:40

It may have been interesting to have had one of the Dimbleby brothers doing it, building on their father’s original reportage

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Jukebag said:

Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.

You are right to say that, in our free society, people are perfectly at liberty to deny the holocaust.

Other people are equally entitled to call them deeply offensive, deluded simpletons.

God, how true is this.

We live in a world where people think everyone deserves respect. They don't, they deserve tolerance. That's all. I don't have to respect anyone who believes drivel. We do not have to have respect for anyone's religious, political, or any other views. I have to tolerate it, not punch them in the face for believing crap. It's a free world, they should be able to believe what they like, in safety.

If people want to deny the holocaust, let them. I am free to ridicule them, that's my right. If people don't want their views ridiculed, then stop believing ridiculous stuff, you tts.

[Castrol for a knave]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

God, how true is this.

We live in a world where people think everyone deserves respect. They don't, they deserve tolerance. That's all. I don't have to respect anyone who believes drivel. We do not have to have respect for anyone's religious, political, or any other views. I have to tolerate it, not punch them in the face for believing crap. It's a free world, they should be able to believe what they like, in safety.

If people want to deny the holocaust, let them. I am free to ridicule them, that's my right. If people don't want their views ridiculed, then stop believing ridiculous stuff, you tts.

I listened to Megan Phelps Roper who narrated her book on R4 last week. She left the Westboro Baptist Church...

She says pretty much that - let them speak, then shoot them down. In return for getting a platform, the price is they have to stand up to being taken to pieces with facts, logic, reason, compassion and humility.

Michael Mansfield made the same point - you can be heard, but that right comes with a price, and the price is that others may tear your argument apart, and you end up standing there looking a right tt (I paraphrase).

Edit; Typos

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Indeed. Some of these morons think free speech only applies to them, when they want to tell everybody the crackpot nonsense they believe. But somehow other people aren't allowed to to point, laugh, and generally take the piss.

In summary, if you want to deny something, don't pick the holocaust or evolution. There's way too much evidence for both, and you'll end up looking like a right .

[joema]

Eric Mc said:

But deniers of all sorts (moon landings, 9/11 etc etc etc) have a much more influential voice these days because of the internet. And as the events they spout about recede into the past, younger generations can sometimes be more easily swayed by the nonsense they spout.

Debunking the nonsense has to be ongoing - forever.

It is much easier to have a voice because of social media. Being able to make and share videos used to be reserved for TV companies and now anyone can. There are probably more fringe views as a result as a result.

The way social media also works should also be questioned. The people following these views, probably only read information related to it and its very easy to cherry pick the bits you want to believe. I.e. YouTube will suggest a similar video to watch next further affirming beliefs.

I watched the Netflix documentary about flat earthers. They're a bit weird, on the fringes, they would constantly question anything that went against their view and it's a totally pointless theory. But what most struck me was that it was like a club to them.

But with Holocaust deniers it stems from nothing but race hate.

[jonby]

Dont like rolls said:

jonby said:

Jukebag said:

Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.

Asking questions about the holocaust = fine

Even hinting that it didn't happen or questioning whether it happened = first degree with nothing but hatred as motivation. No ifs, buts or maybes.

I disagree.
As was said in the program, if you do not learn you will not understand. Education and the facts are required, until then it is understandable for there to questions.
You cannot move your knowledge forward : if you do not ask the correct questions : if you are not shown even the basics. It is why so many kids think Churchill is most famous for selling Car Insurance.

If that was your take, you were watching a different programme.
Questions about why it happened are healthy, not questions about if it happened
The moment you state questions about if it happened are OK, you are suggesting it's not a fact. A very small percentage of what we deem 'history' is fact rather than opinion. The basic facts of the holocaust are not a matter of subjective opinion, i.e. that the Nazis created camps to fulfil the purpose of mass slaughter of millions of jews solely because they were jewish. That is not a matter of opinion and is not healthy to be questioned.


The question of those who weren't jewish is an interesting one. This was probably not the right programme, as it was about denial which as someone else has posted, is effectively exclusively an anti semitic issue. And as Baddiel pointed out, you can deny the date of the napoleonic wars (or some other historical event, I forget which one) but nobody today suffers as a result.

But there should IMO be more coverage of those other groups who also suffered in the holocaust. The question is who pushes that ? Israel and the wider jewish community finance much of the holocaust remembrance. Which gypsy, homosexual support or other groups will finance similar ? Do they feel the need to ? Is it seen by those communities as an important part of their history - I don't know

Edited by jonby on Friday 21st February 16:55

[Dont like rolls]

jonby said:

If that was your take, you were watching a different programme.
Questions about why it happened are healthy, not questions about if it happened
The moment you state questions about if it happened are OK, you are suggesting it's not a fact. A very small percentage of what we deem 'history' is fact rather than opinion. The basic facts of the holocaust are not a matter of subjective opinion, i.e. that the Nazis created camps to fulfil the purpose of mass slaughter of millions of jews solely because they were jewish. That is not a matter of opinion and is not healthy to be questioned.

[/footnote]

Did you miss the bit with the Israeli academic talking about education in the "Arab" world ?