So we are in a recession then
Discussion
St John Smythe said:
egor110 said:
You say we need consumers to spend, that's what got us in this mess though, consumers spending money they didn't have on things they didn't need.
There are very few things people need, compared to what they'd like.
My only debt is a 60k mortgage but there's no way i'd buy a new car or spend money on things i don't need as if a few months down the line i'm laid off i'd find that money useful.
Whilst I agree with some of your comments, I don't think I could live my life thinking I can't do certain things in case I get made redundant in the future.There are very few things people need, compared to what they'd like.
My only debt is a 60k mortgage but there's no way i'd buy a new car or spend money on things i don't need as if a few months down the line i'm laid off i'd find that money useful.
fido said:
Yep, it's a great idea isn't it - companies like Apple that create jobs (income tax) and sells products (20% VAT) and keep the respective economies chugging along. Whilst the whingers carry on arguing about their 'share' of the cake. Having a job in itself doesn't create wealth - the millions of non-jobs created by Incapability Brown are a testament to that.
Giving examples of "massive and inexcusable tax avoidance by multinationals" he said: "Let's take the example of Apple. In the last financial year they had earnings of about £6 billion, estimated, in the UK."It has an operating margin of some 33%, the profit in the UK would be roughly £2 billion. That would be roughly tax attributable to UK profits of £500 million. How much tax did Apple pay? £10 million in the UK. Not £500 million, but £10 million. I think that that is unacceptable."
Amazon in 2010 had revenues attributable to the UK of £2.8 billion, he said. "It is estimated that it should have paid some £35 million in tax on some £125 million of profits. How much tax did Amazon pay? The answer is nothing."
Search engine giant Google should have paid around £180 million in tax, he claimed, but declared a loss of £22 million. Auction website eBay should have paid £50 million in tax, he told MPs, but actually paid £3.4 million. Facebook paid £400,000 in tax rather than the £14 million Mr Elphicke claimed it should have contributed to the Exchequer.
So all this is OK with you then, when you know very well we will have to pay for it ?
frosted said:
Giving examples of "massive and inexcusable tax avoidance by multinationals" he said: "Let's take the example of Apple. In the last financial year they had earnings of about £6 billion, estimated, in the UK.
"It has an operating margin of some 33%, the profit in the UK would be roughly £2 billion. That would be roughly tax attributable to UK profits of £500 million. How much tax did Apple pay? £10 million in the UK. Not £500 million, but £10 million. I think that that is unacceptable."
Amazon in 2010 had revenues attributable to the UK of £2.8 billion, he said. "It is estimated that it should have paid some £35 million in tax on some £125 million of profits. How much tax did Amazon pay? The answer is nothing."
Search engine giant Google should have paid around £180 million in tax, he claimed, but declared a loss of £22 million. Auction website eBay should have paid £50 million in tax, he told MPs, but actually paid £3.4 million. Facebook paid £400,000 in tax rather than the £14 million Mr Elphicke claimed it should have contributed to the Exchequer.
So all this is OK with you then, when you know very well we will have to pay for it ?
Fine with me. "It has an operating margin of some 33%, the profit in the UK would be roughly £2 billion. That would be roughly tax attributable to UK profits of £500 million. How much tax did Apple pay? £10 million in the UK. Not £500 million, but £10 million. I think that that is unacceptable."
Amazon in 2010 had revenues attributable to the UK of £2.8 billion, he said. "It is estimated that it should have paid some £35 million in tax on some £125 million of profits. How much tax did Amazon pay? The answer is nothing."
Search engine giant Google should have paid around £180 million in tax, he claimed, but declared a loss of £22 million. Auction website eBay should have paid £50 million in tax, he told MPs, but actually paid £3.4 million. Facebook paid £400,000 in tax rather than the £14 million Mr Elphicke claimed it should have contributed to the Exchequer.
So all this is OK with you then, when you know very well we will have to pay for it ?
Is it really any surprise that having built up a gigantic state with an endless need for money, that it ends up beholden to those who have it?
What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Adrian W said:
AJS- said:
Fine with me.
What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Made if all of these huge companies paid proper taxes you wouldn't need to!What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
AJS- said:
Adrian W said:
AJS- said:
Fine with me.
What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Made if all of these huge companies paid proper taxes you wouldn't need to!What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Adrian W said:
AJS- said:
Adrian W said:
AJS- said:
Fine with me.
What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Made if all of these huge companies paid proper taxes you wouldn't need to!What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Adrian W said:
AJS- said:
Fine with me.
What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
Made if all of these huge companies paid proper taxes you wouldn't need to!What isn't fine with me is that if I were to go and get a job in the UK on an average salary I would end up paying over half of my salary in taxes.
DSM2 said:
Maybe if our layers of government stopped pissing 100s of billions against the wall every year (6.8% budget increase anyone?) we wouldn't have to?
That's hardly a good argument for excusing a s
tty tax system that's apparently too easy for big corporations to game, is it?They're two separate issues.
Yes, the budget needs fettling. But also yes, the tax system needs fettling as well.
Wasn't a huge contraction, and of course the figure will be revised as more stats come in, if I recall they've tended to be revised up on the last couple of figures, but I might be wrong.
If nothing else it'll make people who've been endlessly muttering on about "this recession" since about 2008 correct for 3 months or so.
Ordinarily the 'R' word would be enough for markets to crash and make consumers run around screaming about someone thinking about the children, but it's almost non-news.
What I'm waiting to hear about are the plans for recovery, and most importantly the plan to re-balance our economy. There's only so long the PM can blame the last guy and worry about the Governments deficit, what I want to know about are his plans to promote industry in Britain and get our products sold abroad.
If nothing else it'll make people who've been endlessly muttering on about "this recession" since about 2008 correct for 3 months or so.
Ordinarily the 'R' word would be enough for markets to crash and make consumers run around screaming about someone thinking about the children, but it's almost non-news.
What I'm waiting to hear about are the plans for recovery, and most importantly the plan to re-balance our economy. There's only so long the PM can blame the last guy and worry about the Governments deficit, what I want to know about are his plans to promote industry in Britain and get our products sold abroad.
A few points:
Lack of consumer spending is a major problem and a large reason behind our slip back into recession. Its easy for people to sit on here and go 'I'm saving my money, i'm being sensible, I wont buy things I dont need' but the problem is if everybody does that the economy never grows, we'll have permanent recession until the end of time. Economies are built on people buying things they dont need. The problem pre-2008 was too much of it was bought with money people didn't have, they cant do that anymore because people are rightfully hesitant to spend on credit because their job might vanish next week. So instead we need to convince people to spend money they have got but they're even more hesitant to spend that and with good reason. People hoarding their cash may be making sensible fiscal decisions for themselves but they're doing nothing to help the economy.
Fuel tax is the number one economic issue. I firmly agree with the earlier poster in that if people didnt have to hand over most of their wages to the Government in fuel tax purely to get to work they'd have money to spend which would generate growth. Everybody knows petrol and diesel are twice the price they should be, Ed Balls keeps banging on about America's current steady growth and one facet of that must be their fuel is a third of the price of ours. I dont see him or the Labour party pledging to match that though
In fact America is too different to compare ourselves to, their taxes generally are lower and the attitudes towards what Government should spend money on are poles apart from the UK.
Lack of consumer spending is a major problem and a large reason behind our slip back into recession. Its easy for people to sit on here and go 'I'm saving my money, i'm being sensible, I wont buy things I dont need' but the problem is if everybody does that the economy never grows, we'll have permanent recession until the end of time. Economies are built on people buying things they dont need. The problem pre-2008 was too much of it was bought with money people didn't have, they cant do that anymore because people are rightfully hesitant to spend on credit because their job might vanish next week. So instead we need to convince people to spend money they have got but they're even more hesitant to spend that and with good reason. People hoarding their cash may be making sensible fiscal decisions for themselves but they're doing nothing to help the economy.
Fuel tax is the number one economic issue. I firmly agree with the earlier poster in that if people didnt have to hand over most of their wages to the Government in fuel tax purely to get to work they'd have money to spend which would generate growth. Everybody knows petrol and diesel are twice the price they should be, Ed Balls keeps banging on about America's current steady growth and one facet of that must be their fuel is a third of the price of ours. I dont see him or the Labour party pledging to match that though
In fact America is too different to compare ourselves to, their taxes generally are lower and the attitudes towards what Government should spend money on are poles apart from the UK.P-Jay said:
Ordinarily the 'R' word would be enough for markets to crash and make consumers run around screaming about someone thinking about the children, but it's almost non-news.
Like I said, we've essentially been in recession for four years. The effects of that crash continue to this day, we've never recovered from that so in the greater context this recent news changes nothing for anybody. I hear what people say about how the boom was unsustainable for sure. It was one of the biggest booms followed by the biggest bust, so therefore its reasonable to presume it'll be a slow recovery.speedy thrills said:
They've always found it difficult to shrug off that image.
Margaret Thatcher was not viewed as a posh hooray henry, neither was John Major. Even IDS, William Hague and Michael Howard largely escaped the 'posh' label but were deemed heartless as part of the 'nasty party.' The overly posh image can be controlled and can be made irrelevent by displaying competence. Right now they are posh and incompetent, the worst combination. The Tories arent helping themselves shrug off this image with Cameron, Osborne, Gove etc all on the front bench who just scream 'stuck up posh oxford kid.' Cameron is so posh that he's almost a comic exaggeration of what the typical Tory image is.frosted said:
So what your saying is , we might as well avoid tax because paying it would solve f8ck all , a bit like Greece perhaps ?
That's getting silly now - no one is saying let's not pay tax at all. Rather than trying to grab at every bit of entrepreneurship and punishing entities that are creating wealth why don't we examine where and how we can tax fairly. In theory, you could have very little Corporation Tax and just rely on a combination of Income Tax and Sales Tax. Why is it okay to rob a non-living entity that is only a mechanism rather than an individual that is consuming or storing wealth? Think about Companies as Charities and it makes more sense.St John Smythe said:
Whilst I agree with some of your comments, I don't think I could live my life thinking I can't do certain things in case I get made redundant in the future.
But what wouldn't you be able to do?I go to all the motorbike/car races i want, same with concerts. I would never get finance to buy a new car because it devalues as soon as you've purchased it, also once you've shown it to family & friends it just becomes the car rather than new car.
Holidays are nice but when i come back i'm always left thinking i could of paid off another big chunk of the mortgage.
Bing o said:
Dixie68 said:
martin84 said:
I understand your outlook completely. The 'wait and see' method is being practiced by most households and businesses at the moment, theres plenty of money there but nobody dare risk losing it by investing in anything or spending any of it. Unfortunately that in itself holds back any growth. The big question is what would convince somebody like yourself that spending your money is a less risky move?
Yep, agree with that totally. I've always tried to save a little money as a safety net, but now it's almost a compulsion. I'm in a pretty secure job but who knows what's around the corner that may happen? I rent so I don't have the worry about mortgages but I guarantee the rent will go up this year, along with the public & private transport costs that I have to pay to just get to work, and pay raises won't even get close to covering those (even if we HAD raises).Worrying times.
fido said:
That's getting silly now - no one is saying let's not pay tax at all. Rather than trying to grab at every bit of entrepreneurship and punishing entities that are creating wealth why don't we examine where and how we can tax fairly. In theory, you could have very little Corporation Tax and just rely on a combination of Income Tax and Sales Tax. Why is it okay to rob a non-living entity that is only a mechanism rather than an individual that is consuming or storing wealth? Think about Companies as Charities and it makes more sense.
I understand exactly how lets say Amazon will create jobs for people in the UK, even though they would send a parcel from America. However clearly its not enough, they are able to send the fricking parcel beacause we pay road tax for their vehicles to deliver that parcel , we have minimum wage for people to buy that iphone and all that is being paid by a majority of idiots who live here. Clearly I believe they are not paying enough and they should cough up their fair share IMO , looking at what their profits are I doubt they would even dare to stop business here.
egor110 said:
St John Smythe said:
Whilst I agree with some of your comments, I don't think I could live my life thinking I can't do certain things in case I get made redundant in the future.
But what wouldn't you be able to do?I go to all the motorbike/car races i want, same with concerts. I would never get finance to buy a new car because it devalues as soon as you've purchased it, also once you've shown it to family & friends it just becomes the car rather than new car.
Holidays are nice but when i come back i'm always left thinking i could of paid off another big chunk of the mortgage.
Plus a car to me is much more than showing off to my friends and family. I buy a car to enjoy it and drive it. This is a motoring forum by the way!
edited to add - but, things are very different to a few years ago. For example, this year I was all set to go out and buy the current shape M3. Not a new one but still a 20k+ car. Instead of buying one on finance I've actually had second thoughts, kept my old Alpina, and save the money each month I would of been making on payments. A few years ago I would of rushed out and bought one so I'm certainly more cautious in the current climate.
Edited by St John Smythe on Thursday 26th April 17:48
frosted said:
DSM2 said:
Maybe if our layers of government stopped pissing 100s of billions against the wall every year (6.8% budget increase anyone?) we wouldn't have to?
So what your saying is , we might as well avoid tax because paying it would solve fk all , a bit like Greece perhaps ? And you are once again confusing avoidance with evasion which is what f
ked Greece. Anyone who doesn't try to optimise their tax avoidance strategy is, frankly, stupid and deserves everything they get.Or are you saying these corporations are evading tax?
Of course our tax system does need radical overhaul. However, if it were to ever happen sensibly it would mean the loss of thousands of jobs in HMRC (a good thing IMO) so it ain't going to happen.We will continue with the f
kwits devising ever more convoluted and complex tax regimes which will simply offer more opportunities for avoidance.St John Smythe said:
The poster said he wouldn't buy a new car or anything he didn't need in case he loses his job. If we all thought like that we'd be driving Fiat Pandas and buying our clothes off market stalls. We are ALL guilty of buying things we don't need and we do it every day.
Plus a car to me is much more than showing off to my friends and family. I buy a car to enjoy it and drive it. This is a motoring forum by the way!
edited to add - but, things are very different to a few years ago. For example, this year I was all set to go out and buy the current shape M3. Not a new one but still a 20k+ car. Instead of buying one on finance I've actually had second thoughts, kept my old Alpina, and save the money each month I would of been making on payments. A few years ago I would of rushed out and bought one so I'm certainly more cautious in the current climate.
Go back 10 years and people thought they'd never lose there job, thought there houses would increase in price forever so they could remortgage and buy new cars, holidays etc just because they wanted them, even though the truth is they couldn't afford them and now find themselves in a bit of a mess.Plus a car to me is much more than showing off to my friends and family. I buy a car to enjoy it and drive it. This is a motoring forum by the way!
edited to add - but, things are very different to a few years ago. For example, this year I was all set to go out and buy the current shape M3. Not a new one but still a 20k+ car. Instead of buying one on finance I've actually had second thoughts, kept my old Alpina, and save the money each month I would of been making on payments. A few years ago I would of rushed out and bought one so I'm certainly more cautious in the current climate.
Edited by St John Smythe on Thursday 26th April 17:48
Your case re your bmw purchase is exactly what i'm saying but obviously your budget is much higher than mine, i'd rather stash extra money overpaying the mortgage or in my savings.
It does worry me that a large number of people still seem to think they should be able to have things and have them right now even though they'll have to borrow the money, have we as a society learnt nothing from the consumer driven 90's?
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