War with Russia
Discussion
Bluebarge said:
The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
I agree. Who's helping with Chernoble? Who's decommissioning old russian subs? UK companies using modern technology. Russia needs the UK, the West and the US, it needs to heal ties for her own sake. On the other hand the US needs to back off a little, flexing muscles is so 1970's.Mr Whippy said:
Russia on the other hand. All my adult life they just seem to have kept themselves to themselves in comparison to the World Police.
Dave
Jeez - even if you were 2 years old that would be utter bowlarks.Dave
Let's ignore the whole invading eastern Europe bit (although that is the cause of today's problems in Ukraine) and you still have Afghanistan, Chechnya, Georgia, the Crimea, Eastern Ukraine. All invasions of neighbouring territories, all serious shooting wars, none justified under international law.
This is my problem with you - you invent sh*t in your head and say "that is how the world is". FFS read some books, magazines, newspapers and try travelling a bit - don't just confine yourself to RT and Socialist Worker.
Afghanistan, that was the USSR, and another one of these cold war fights.
The USA has since been there to 'liberate' them
Chechnya seems like the usual pretext for a war, just like the USA used on any one of the countries it's invaded to 'liberate' since the 90's.
Georgia the same, and it's questionable (depending again on who you think are 'good' or 'bad', or if they're all just the same 'bad') who started that one.
Crimea and Ukraine, again there is just as much supposed evidence to suggest the West caused a coup in an unstable country so they could install their own western leaning and supportive leadership, as there is that Russia escalated tensions between opposing east/west leaning factions in the region... just like the above cases.
Again, this is in comparison to the world police.
I've noted time and time again that BOTH sides are just as cretinous as each other. Both sides are war mongers, and both sides seem to want to rattle sabres for their own ends, and not of ANYONE else involved, the millions and billions of innocent people just trying to live their lives.
You seem to be of the view that the USA can do no bad, and that Russia are just evil.
But I'm open minded enough to think that ALL conflicts for the last 30 years that involve the USA or Russia are just a perpetual tit for tat, the USA wanting to expand their corporate elites global agenda, while Russia want to retake territories that were lost during the USSR breakup to enhance the wealth of their corporate elite big-wings.
But from where I'm sitting and looking, all those regions Russia has been involved in have a history with Russia, with Russian people living in them who may or may not want to be part of Russia. They all border Russia. They have Russians living in them. They have something to do with Russia.
The USA has no real reason to be there in a World Police role at all.
And once again, I note you completely avoided the way the USA supports Saudi Arabia and helps enforce their totalitarian laws against it's population.
It seems one rule to help liberate all these other regions from nasty Russia, even though they're full of Russians. And yet another region and they HELP support the draconian laws and totalitarian police state.
Are Russia this inconsistent? Educate me by all means.
Dave
The USA has since been there to 'liberate' them
Chechnya seems like the usual pretext for a war, just like the USA used on any one of the countries it's invaded to 'liberate' since the 90's.
Georgia the same, and it's questionable (depending again on who you think are 'good' or 'bad', or if they're all just the same 'bad') who started that one.
Crimea and Ukraine, again there is just as much supposed evidence to suggest the West caused a coup in an unstable country so they could install their own western leaning and supportive leadership, as there is that Russia escalated tensions between opposing east/west leaning factions in the region... just like the above cases.
Again, this is in comparison to the world police.
I've noted time and time again that BOTH sides are just as cretinous as each other. Both sides are war mongers, and both sides seem to want to rattle sabres for their own ends, and not of ANYONE else involved, the millions and billions of innocent people just trying to live their lives.
You seem to be of the view that the USA can do no bad, and that Russia are just evil.
But I'm open minded enough to think that ALL conflicts for the last 30 years that involve the USA or Russia are just a perpetual tit for tat, the USA wanting to expand their corporate elites global agenda, while Russia want to retake territories that were lost during the USSR breakup to enhance the wealth of their corporate elite big-wings.
But from where I'm sitting and looking, all those regions Russia has been involved in have a history with Russia, with Russian people living in them who may or may not want to be part of Russia. They all border Russia. They have Russians living in them. They have something to do with Russia.
The USA has no real reason to be there in a World Police role at all.
And once again, I note you completely avoided the way the USA supports Saudi Arabia and helps enforce their totalitarian laws against it's population.
It seems one rule to help liberate all these other regions from nasty Russia, even though they're full of Russians. And yet another region and they HELP support the draconian laws and totalitarian police state.
Are Russia this inconsistent? Educate me by all means.
Dave
scherzkeks said:
It would behoove you to learn how unemployment is calculated in the US. In other words, the rate is much, much higher.
Nope, because Dave's point was that youth unemployment is rising, whereas the figures show it is a mere 0.5% above its historical average over the last 60 years, so hardly a sign of impending armageddon. Mr Whippy said:
Educate me by all means.
Dave
I have tried, but you ignore everything you are told and revert to your moral equivalence guff, and now I simply don't have the time.Dave
All I can recommend is that you talk to some people who are a little closer to this than you are. My Latvian, Ukrainian and Finnish chums simply don't share your view that they should automatically be Russia's b
h because they share a border. So, go on, explain yourself to them. I think you'd find that an education.As said, official figures are tortured to tell you what you want to hear.
Lets remember these actuarial types are the same ones that keep projecting huge growth, then getting it completely wrong.
The same types who drove blindly into a sub-prime crash.
The same numbers people who tell the US people that cheap oil = rising GDP, somehow.
Anyway, it's clearly a futile argument to try portray both sides as equal warmongers.
You clearly subscribe to the USA being the World Police and Russia, whoever is in power, or whatever their motives, are just the archetypal 'baddies'
Go USA!!! Save us from whatever enemy you just made up!!!
Lets remember these actuarial types are the same ones that keep projecting huge growth, then getting it completely wrong.
The same types who drove blindly into a sub-prime crash.
The same numbers people who tell the US people that cheap oil = rising GDP, somehow.
Anyway, it's clearly a futile argument to try portray both sides as equal warmongers.
You clearly subscribe to the USA being the World Police and Russia, whoever is in power, or whatever their motives, are just the archetypal 'baddies'
Go USA!!! Save us from whatever enemy you just made up!!!
Bluebarge said:
No, it really isn't.
Dave, as usual you are conflating a number of issues to suit your agenda.
US youth unemployment is 12.8%. It's averaged 12.3% since 1955. There has been no significant increase. The UK unemployment rate is sub 7%. The Eurozone is in trouble because weaker economies are in an economic straitjacket imposed by Germany; they could easily leave the Euro or set up a "Euro-Sud" but the political will is currently lacking. Their problems are of their own making and are easily solved. despite those problems, they have dynamic economies and well-educated and innovative workforces because, in a democracy, people are free to think and create for themselves.
Contrast that with Russia, where corruption and organized crime (often officially organised or sanctioned) stifle innovation. The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
There is no innovation in the US economy? Really??? Reflect for a moment where most of the World's R&D spending takes place. Not heard of Silicon Valley, NASA, MIT, Apple, Microsoft ???
Rising debt? yes, at the moment, but that's how you stimulate economies in a deflationary environment. Would you prefer to ne in the US/UK or the Eurozone right now? Russia has very little debt, but it has very little in the way of reserves, and no ability to attract foreign lenders, because its corrupt system of govt means it cannot be trusted in the same way as a democratic state.
US not a democracy because it has two main parties? Anyone can run for govt., anyone who runs for govt. is obliged to listen to the people; lobbyists may have some influence, but they only have one vote each - stop listening to the people and you get voted out. Russia? people who oppose Putin don't get airtime, campaigning journalists and political opponents get murdered, dissent is silenced. You think it's the same in the US??
Checks and balances and the CIA - who wrote the report condemning the CIA? Is that not a check? The govt. examining an arm of the govt.? Where are the investigations into the FSB? Who is checking what is happening in the Ukraine? Where are these checks and balances in the Russian system?
They are both equally bad and stupid - No, really not. The people may be no different, but those in positions of power, and govenment, they couldn't be more different.
dave, there's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but there is if it clouds your vision and leads you to paint pictures that are not consistent with the facts. Which is what you do.
Just about the best post I've read on this thread, in my humble opinion.Dave, as usual you are conflating a number of issues to suit your agenda.
US youth unemployment is 12.8%. It's averaged 12.3% since 1955. There has been no significant increase. The UK unemployment rate is sub 7%. The Eurozone is in trouble because weaker economies are in an economic straitjacket imposed by Germany; they could easily leave the Euro or set up a "Euro-Sud" but the political will is currently lacking. Their problems are of their own making and are easily solved. despite those problems, they have dynamic economies and well-educated and innovative workforces because, in a democracy, people are free to think and create for themselves.
Contrast that with Russia, where corruption and organized crime (often officially organised or sanctioned) stifle innovation. The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
There is no innovation in the US economy? Really??? Reflect for a moment where most of the World's R&D spending takes place. Not heard of Silicon Valley, NASA, MIT, Apple, Microsoft ???
Rising debt? yes, at the moment, but that's how you stimulate economies in a deflationary environment. Would you prefer to ne in the US/UK or the Eurozone right now? Russia has very little debt, but it has very little in the way of reserves, and no ability to attract foreign lenders, because its corrupt system of govt means it cannot be trusted in the same way as a democratic state.
US not a democracy because it has two main parties? Anyone can run for govt., anyone who runs for govt. is obliged to listen to the people; lobbyists may have some influence, but they only have one vote each - stop listening to the people and you get voted out. Russia? people who oppose Putin don't get airtime, campaigning journalists and political opponents get murdered, dissent is silenced. You think it's the same in the US??
Checks and balances and the CIA - who wrote the report condemning the CIA? Is that not a check? The govt. examining an arm of the govt.? Where are the investigations into the FSB? Who is checking what is happening in the Ukraine? Where are these checks and balances in the Russian system?
They are both equally bad and stupid - No, really not. The people may be no different, but those in positions of power, and govenment, they couldn't be more different.
dave, there's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but there is if it clouds your vision and leads you to paint pictures that are not consistent with the facts. Which is what you do.
Bluebarge said:
My Latvian, Ukrainian and Finnish chums simply don't share your view that they should automatically be Russia's bh because they share a border.
When did I say they should be Russia's bh because they share a border.hes?I said the USA are just as bad as Russia for instigating needless wars and conflicts around the world, harming the security and futures of normal people, like your Latvian, Ukranian and Finnish chums.
If you believe the leadership of the USA are perfect, then why are they already pushing legislation for escalating this conflict from an economic one to an armed and lethal one that the USA is directly supporting?
I don't see NATO or anyone else doing this, so what makes the USA so special in involving itself here?
Didn't Russia recently stop the USA entering Syria on the pretext of chemical weapons attacks by Assad which were actually propagated by terrorists acting to get the USA to involve themselves.
It's amazing that some terrorists can play a huge nation like the USA 'just like that'... and it took the evil Russians to ask for a pause and to get further proof before invading.
But hey, Russia are evil. USA are good. Black and white. If the USA did invade by accident, they'd have freed and liberated the people of Syria. So that makes it all ok.
So why aren't they invading Saudi Arabia to liberate their oppressed people?
Dave
Joey Ramone said:
Bluebarge said:
No, it really isn't.
Dave, as usual you are conflating a number of issues to suit your agenda.
US youth unemployment is 12.8%. It's averaged 12.3% since 1955. There has been no significant increase. The UK unemployment rate is sub 7%. The Eurozone is in trouble because weaker economies are in an economic straitjacket imposed by Germany; they could easily leave the Euro or set up a "Euro-Sud" but the political will is currently lacking. Their problems are of their own making and are easily solved. despite those problems, they have dynamic economies and well-educated and innovative workforces because, in a democracy, people are free to think and create for themselves.
Contrast that with Russia, where corruption and organized crime (often officially organised or sanctioned) stifle innovation. The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
There is no innovation in the US economy? Really??? Reflect for a moment where most of the World's R&D spending takes place. Not heard of Silicon Valley, NASA, MIT, Apple, Microsoft ???
Rising debt? yes, at the moment, but that's how you stimulate economies in a deflationary environment. Would you prefer to ne in the US/UK or the Eurozone right now? Russia has very little debt, but it has very little in the way of reserves, and no ability to attract foreign lenders, because its corrupt system of govt means it cannot be trusted in the same way as a democratic state.
US not a democracy because it has two main parties? Anyone can run for govt., anyone who runs for govt. is obliged to listen to the people; lobbyists may have some influence, but they only have one vote each - stop listening to the people and you get voted out. Russia? people who oppose Putin don't get airtime, campaigning journalists and political opponents get murdered, dissent is silenced. You think it's the same in the US??
Checks and balances and the CIA - who wrote the report condemning the CIA? Is that not a check? The govt. examining an arm of the govt.? Where are the investigations into the FSB? Who is checking what is happening in the Ukraine? Where are these checks and balances in the Russian system?
They are both equally bad and stupid - No, really not. The people may be no different, but those in positions of power, and govenment, they couldn't be more different.
dave, there's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but there is if it clouds your vision and leads you to paint pictures that are not consistent with the facts. Which is what you do.
Just about the best post I've read on this thread, in my humble opinion.Dave, as usual you are conflating a number of issues to suit your agenda.
US youth unemployment is 12.8%. It's averaged 12.3% since 1955. There has been no significant increase. The UK unemployment rate is sub 7%. The Eurozone is in trouble because weaker economies are in an economic straitjacket imposed by Germany; they could easily leave the Euro or set up a "Euro-Sud" but the political will is currently lacking. Their problems are of their own making and are easily solved. despite those problems, they have dynamic economies and well-educated and innovative workforces because, in a democracy, people are free to think and create for themselves.
Contrast that with Russia, where corruption and organized crime (often officially organised or sanctioned) stifle innovation. The Russian economy still relies on digging stuff out of the ground and sending it down a pipeline. they don't even have the technical expertise to access the harder deposits themselves. The Russians are as clever as anyone on the planet, but their appalling system of government means that talent is either stifled or forced to leave.
There is no innovation in the US economy? Really??? Reflect for a moment where most of the World's R&D spending takes place. Not heard of Silicon Valley, NASA, MIT, Apple, Microsoft ???
Rising debt? yes, at the moment, but that's how you stimulate economies in a deflationary environment. Would you prefer to ne in the US/UK or the Eurozone right now? Russia has very little debt, but it has very little in the way of reserves, and no ability to attract foreign lenders, because its corrupt system of govt means it cannot be trusted in the same way as a democratic state.
US not a democracy because it has two main parties? Anyone can run for govt., anyone who runs for govt. is obliged to listen to the people; lobbyists may have some influence, but they only have one vote each - stop listening to the people and you get voted out. Russia? people who oppose Putin don't get airtime, campaigning journalists and political opponents get murdered, dissent is silenced. You think it's the same in the US??
Checks and balances and the CIA - who wrote the report condemning the CIA? Is that not a check? The govt. examining an arm of the govt.? Where are the investigations into the FSB? Who is checking what is happening in the Ukraine? Where are these checks and balances in the Russian system?
They are both equally bad and stupid - No, really not. The people may be no different, but those in positions of power, and govenment, they couldn't be more different.
dave, there's nothing wrong with being an idealist, but there is if it clouds your vision and leads you to paint pictures that are not consistent with the facts. Which is what you do.
I dont agree with Mr Whippys position at all.
Russia IMO is over estimated. It is like a noisy little dog that creates a hell of a din and relies on making people frightened that it will bite. But it also knows that if it does bite, it gets put down.
It is also a mistake to think that Putin is popular across Russia. Lets be clear here - in many parts of Russia he reallly, really is not liked. And let us also remember that Russia does not have a free press, or anything resembling one.
While I think Whippy overestimates Russia, I think he is unfairly hard on the US. The US , for all its considerable weaknesses, still has the basic function of democracy in play. Presidents cannot run for more than 2 terms and they can be stopped from doing what they want. Obama has been defeated on numerous occasions on policy matters. The Gov can even be shut down by the opposition, as happened with the budget arguments. The US presidency has checks and balances that will never be seen in Russia.
Ultimately, Russia is just a big oil and gas company with an army. Russia does not manufacture anything anyone wants. No-one wants to travel there - tourism is minimal. Outside of the cities, the place is ancient, decrepit and run down. Productivity is poor.
My main worry is what the big plan is regarding a successor to Putin. My guess is that someone is waiting in the wings to deliver an agenda that is collaborative and friendly to Russia's neighbours and the rest of the world.
People forget that Russia has no communist doctrine anymore. It has no moral outlook, no alternative set of values compared to the communist era. They are capitalists like everyone else. And they are surrounded with countries they used to bully who don't like them very much. Thats why ultimately they have to play the game. If Putin won't, he will be removed and replaced with someone who will, simply because too many wealthy people of power and influence have too much to lose.
toppstuff said:
Thats why ultimately they have to play the game. If Putin won't, he will be removed and replaced with someone who will, simply because too many wealthy people of power and influence have too much to lose.
But I can't imagine Putin is stupid.If forum discussions can reveal his inadequacies then I'm sure within his circle of friends and advisors that relatively firm and solid policies are pushed forward that are generally agreed upon throughout the leadership elements?
This is where I'm confused, because if Putin is acting like a loose cannon, he's staying in control for a long long time.
So if he's not a loose cannon and following what will make his fellow leadership happy then what kind of regime change will really change the tune?
Unless it's something between those two options... but I'm not so sure that it is.
I think what he is doing is supported among those that matter.
Hmmm
Bluebarge said:
So we have to do whatever you say or you will incinerate the planet?
Great strategy.
Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.
There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.
no but you should stop instigating color revolutions and arming nations close to their borders, I'm quite sure USA would react if Russia started revolution in Mexico or Canada to bring their people to rule the countryGreat strategy.
Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.
There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.
Mr Whippy said:
But I can't imagine Putin is stupid.
If forum discussions can reveal his inadequacies then I'm sure within his circle of friends and advisors that relatively firm and solid policies are pushed forward that are generally agreed upon throughout the leadership elements?
This is where I'm confused, because if Putin is acting like a loose cannon, he's staying in control for a long long time.
So if he's not a loose cannon and following what will make his fellow leadership happy then what kind of regime change will really change the tune?
Unless it's something between those two options... but I'm not so sure that it is.
I think what he is doing is supported among those that matter.
Hmmm
Putin has spent his time in power ensuring that there is no such thing as a loyal opposition (Labour to Conservative, Democrat to Republican, etc). Or indeed any effective form of opposition full stop. That's why he's still in control. Because he's a fIf forum discussions can reveal his inadequacies then I'm sure within his circle of friends and advisors that relatively firm and solid policies are pushed forward that are generally agreed upon throughout the leadership elements?
This is where I'm confused, because if Putin is acting like a loose cannon, he's staying in control for a long long time.
So if he's not a loose cannon and following what will make his fellow leadership happy then what kind of regime change will really change the tune?
Unless it's something between those two options... but I'm not so sure that it is.
I think what he is doing is supported among those that matter.
Hmmm
king totalitarian. Whatever vestiges of support remain do so because of the lack of a functioning alternative.AreOut said:
no but you should stop instigating color revolutions and arming nations close to their borders, I'm quite sure USA would react if Russia started revolution in Mexico or Canada to bring their people to rule the country
Now, now. Don't make things too complicated by introducing any grey. Keep things black and white. Putin baaad!Z
I don't see much shades of gray here.
Putin is a modern day bourgeoisie. A ruling Tzar by any other name.
He and his cohorts have stolen anything of value in Russia.
Last time a similar state of affairs existed in Russia was about a hundred years ago. We all know how that ended.
scherzkeks said:
Now, now. Don't make things too complicated by introducing any grey. Keep things black and white. Putin baaad!
Although you intend to be sarcastic you are probably right. I don't see much shades of gray here.
Putin is a modern day bourgeoisie. A ruling Tzar by any other name.
He and his cohorts have stolen anything of value in Russia.
Last time a similar state of affairs existed in Russia was about a hundred years ago. We all know how that ended.
toppstuff said:
Although you intend to be sarcastic you are probably right.
I don't see much shades of gray here.
Putin is a modern day bourgeoisie. A ruling Tzar by any other name.
He and his cohorts have stolen anything of value in Russia.
Last time a similar state of affairs existed in Russia was about a hundred years ago. We all know how that ended.
It's not a revolution but a military expansion to detract from economic woes at home that is my concern at the moment. I don't see much shades of gray here.
Putin is a modern day bourgeoisie. A ruling Tzar by any other name.
He and his cohorts have stolen anything of value in Russia.
Last time a similar state of affairs existed in Russia was about a hundred years ago. We all know how that ended.
Ze
Especially when most of the countries neighbouring Russia want nothing to do with them, having suffered for 4 decades under Moscow oppression. These neighbours are well armed and dislike them intensely.
Putin can ponce around Ukraine and Belarus because they have ethnic Russian populations and identity. His options in other neighbouring countries are very limited. His hand is weak.
Jinx said:
It's not a revolution but a military expansion to detract from economic woes at home that is my concern at the moment.
Military expansion costs a fortune. Especially when most of the countries neighbouring Russia want nothing to do with them, having suffered for 4 decades under Moscow oppression. These neighbours are well armed and dislike them intensely.
Putin can ponce around Ukraine and Belarus because they have ethnic Russian populations and identity. His options in other neighbouring countries are very limited. His hand is weak.
AreOut said:
Bluebarge said:
So we have to do whatever you say or you will incinerate the planet?
Great strategy.
Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.
There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.
no but you should stop instigating color revolutions and arming nations close to their borders, I'm quite sure USA would react if Russia started revolution in Mexico or Canada to bring their people to rule the countryGreat strategy.
Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.
There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.
Have you forgotten that there have since been elections in Ukraine since that revolution (except in those parts of Ukraine occupied by Russian separatists and Russian troops)? Ukraine now has a govt. chosen by its people, not by some shadowy figures you seem to believe in.
Who is arming Ukraine? The US may now vote to provide military supplies to Ukraine but nothing has been sent so far. Even if it does, why should Russia's neighbours be unarmed? After all, Russia guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in 1994, and that worked awfully well, didn't it?
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