How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
I haven't been following this thread - is this https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/15/e... expected, unexpected, or something else altogether?
Greg66 said:
I haven't been following this thread - is this https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/15/e... expected, unexpected, or something else altogether?
Pretty much what you'd expect.don'tbesilly said:
Greg66 said:
I haven't been following this thread - is this https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/15/e... expected, unexpected, or something else altogether?
Pretty much what you'd expect.Ean218 said:
I've not commented on this thread before but I am struck how you seem to think anyone who voted out is ignorant and cannot think for themselves.
I and most of my friends voted to leave the EU in the full knowledge that trade with the EU would suffer, we voted out because we also believe that trade with the rest of the world would increase markedly. Nothing that has happened so far has shaken that view. In fact I am surprised how quickly non EU trade is increasing already.
I don't & me too, since they're not. Also, we haven't left. The newtopia is not upon you.I and most of my friends voted to leave the EU in the full knowledge that trade with the EU would suffer, we voted out because we also believe that trade with the rest of the world would increase markedly. Nothing that has happened so far has shaken that view. In fact I am surprised how quickly non EU trade is increasing already.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/ba...
Eddie Strohacker said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Perhaps team UK were hoping for a quick FTA which would have negated the need for a transitional agreement. Possibly that was over optimistic and/or they didn't initially appreciate the complexity of the exit.
Yes & clearly, that realisation is dawning slowly on people in general & incredibly, the highly paid team charged with carrying this stuff out. It's literally the news before our eye and yet I await all the usuals here telling me I'm wrong/stupid/whining/don't know what I'm on about.The above speech is from 17th January 2017
At this stage, given that everything is in the air, it's quite expected that commentators from opposite ends of the political spectrum are spinning the same announcements into either tragic defeats or miraculous triumphs.
What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
Tuna said:
At this stage, given that everything is in the air, it's quite expected that commentators from opposite ends of the political spectrum are spinning the same announcements into either tragic defeats or miraculous triumphs.
What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
It genuinely terrifies me how people will suck up anything that feeds their own narrative. I wonder if it's actually the biggest threat to democracy.Tuna said:
At this stage, given that everything is in the air, it's quite expected that commentators from opposite ends of the political spectrum are spinning the same announcements into either tragic defeats or miraculous triumphs.
What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
It's not surprising at all imo What's slightly more unexpected is that people are willing to lap up the b******t being spouted, as though some point has been proven.
Latest position paper is suggesting no customs border between NI and RoI, which is something both governments agree on.
Given trade is relatively equal between the two, does it make sense for any tariff imbalance between the two to be settled at governmental level.
In 2015, at an averaged rate of 4%, that would give £200m paid from the UK to RoI, which is relatively modest in the context of the economic and regeneration investments into NI. Furthermore, given the strength of the Euro vs GBP, even that number should be substantially reduced now.
loafer123 said:
Latest position paper is suggesting no customs border between NI and RoI, which is something both governments agree on.
Given trade is relatively equal between the two, does it make sense for any tariff imbalance between the two to be settled at governmental level.
In 2015, at an averaged rate of 4%, that would give £200m paid from the UK to RoI, which is relatively modest in the context of the economic and regeneration investments into NI. Furthermore, given the strength of the Euro vs GBP, even that number should be substantially reduced now.
It is not about tariffs. The aim is to have no tariffs. The issue is that if the UK in the long term develops separate customs regime with other countries (e.g. a free trade deal with the USA) then if you have no monitoring goods could be "back doored" into the EU via NI/RoI.Given trade is relatively equal between the two, does it make sense for any tariff imbalance between the two to be settled at governmental level.
In 2015, at an averaged rate of 4%, that would give £200m paid from the UK to RoI, which is relatively modest in the context of the economic and regeneration investments into NI. Furthermore, given the strength of the Euro vs GBP, even that number should be substantially reduced now.
For example, Norway has no tariffs between them and Sweden as they are EEA and therefore full Single Market members. However, EEA countries are not part of the Customs Union and can, and do, operate their own trade policies with non-EU countries. Therefore there has to be customs monitoring as otherwise goods could be shipped into Norway tariff free from countries Norway has a FTA agreement with but not the EU and then into the EU avoiding EU tariffs.
Edited by confused_buyer on Wednesday 16th August 09:25
I still see many people within the media and other commentators totally fail to realise that there is a NEGOTIATION taking place.
Why do we keep hearing that "the government should not create a hard border", "the government should keep us in the single market" ... etc. etc.
The reality of a negotiation is that there is more than one party involved and that other party has the power to accept or deny a request from either side.
There was some bloke on the news who drove an HGV in N.Ireland complaining that the UK government was TRYING TO IMPLEMENT a HARD BORDER.
No dude, the lefty media is saying that, in the world of reality the government is trying to keep the UK in a customs union and free market arrangement but the EU are the ones opposing this. So your blame should be towards the EU.
And this sort of mind set seems to be rife within the remoaners and those that are interviewed on the media.
Why would the tory party position itself to create anti-national interest requests to the EU knowing that it would destroy their party in any future election?
That logic step should be enough to realise that what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
Why do we keep hearing that "the government should not create a hard border", "the government should keep us in the single market" ... etc. etc.
The reality of a negotiation is that there is more than one party involved and that other party has the power to accept or deny a request from either side.
There was some bloke on the news who drove an HGV in N.Ireland complaining that the UK government was TRYING TO IMPLEMENT a HARD BORDER.
No dude, the lefty media is saying that, in the world of reality the government is trying to keep the UK in a customs union and free market arrangement but the EU are the ones opposing this. So your blame should be towards the EU.
And this sort of mind set seems to be rife within the remoaners and those that are interviewed on the media.
Why would the tory party position itself to create anti-national interest requests to the EU knowing that it would destroy their party in any future election?
That logic step should be enough to realise that what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
confused_buyer said:
loafer123 said:
Latest position paper is suggesting no customs border between NI and RoI, which is something both governments agree on.
Given trade is relatively equal between the two, does it make sense for any tariff imbalance between the two to be settled at governmental level.
In 2015, at an averaged rate of 4%, that would give £200m paid from the UK to RoI, which is relatively modest in the context of the economic and regeneration investments into NI. Furthermore, given the strength of the Euro vs GBP, even that number should be substantially reduced now.
It is not about tariffs. The aim is to have no tariffs. The issue is that if the UK in the long term develops separate customs regime with other countries (e.g. a free trade deal with the USA) then if you have no monitoring goods could be "back doored" into the EU via NI/RoI.Given trade is relatively equal between the two, does it make sense for any tariff imbalance between the two to be settled at governmental level.
In 2015, at an averaged rate of 4%, that would give £200m paid from the UK to RoI, which is relatively modest in the context of the economic and regeneration investments into NI. Furthermore, given the strength of the Euro vs GBP, even that number should be substantially reduced now.
For example, Norway has no tariffs between them and Sweden as they are EEA and therefore full Single Market members. However, EEA countries are not part of the Customs Union and can, and do, operate their own trade policies with non-EU countries. Therefore there has to be customs monitoring as otherwise goods could be shipped into Norway tariff free from countries Norway has a FTA agreement with but not the EU and then into the EU avoiding EU tariffs.
Edited by confused_buyer on Wednesday 16th August 09:25
I can think of a few ways which will make this achievable without creating a hard border in Ireland.
Atomic12C said:
I still see many people within the media and other commentators totally fail to realise that there is a NEGOTIATION taking place.
Why do we keep hearing that "the government should not create a hard border", "the government should keep us in the single market" ... etc. etc.
The reality of a negotiation is that there is more than one party involved and that other party has the power to accept or deny a request from either side.
There was some bloke on the news who drove an HGV in N.Ireland complaining that the UK government was TRYING TO IMPLEMENT a HARD BORDER.
No dude, the lefty media is saying that, in the world of reality the government is trying to keep the UK in a customs union and free market arrangement but the EU are the ones opposing this. So your blame should be towards the EU.
And this sort of mind set seems to be rife within the remoaners and those that are interviewed on the media.
Why would the tory party position itself to create anti-national interest requests to the EU knowing that it would destroy their party in any future election?
That logic step should be enough to realise that what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
The Government is expressly AGAINST a customs union and remaining in the free market! Why do we keep hearing that "the government should not create a hard border", "the government should keep us in the single market" ... etc. etc.
The reality of a negotiation is that there is more than one party involved and that other party has the power to accept or deny a request from either side.
There was some bloke on the news who drove an HGV in N.Ireland complaining that the UK government was TRYING TO IMPLEMENT a HARD BORDER.
No dude, the lefty media is saying that, in the world of reality the government is trying to keep the UK in a customs union and free market arrangement but the EU are the ones opposing this. So your blame should be towards the EU.
And this sort of mind set seems to be rife within the remoaners and those that are interviewed on the media.
Why would the tory party position itself to create anti-national interest requests to the EU knowing that it would destroy their party in any future election?
That logic step should be enough to realise that what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
If you Brexiteers would at least try to keep up with the news, you would see that we face two (and only two) options:
(1) A very hard Brexit with huge economic damage.
(2) A face-saving climbdown of some sort where we agree a position very like membership of the EU but called something else.
It's a stark choice. Once Labour see that advocating option 2 will win them the next election, its Game Over for Brexit nutters but also the whole of the Tory party.
ORD said:
The Government is expressly AGAINST a customs union and remaining in the free market!
If you Brexiteers would at least try to keep up with the news, you would see that we face two (and only two) options:
(1) A very hard Brexit with huge economic damage.
(2) A face-saving climbdown of some sort where we agree a position very like membership of the EU but called something else.
It's a stark choice. Once Labour see that advocating option 2 will win them the next election, its Game Over for Brexit nutters but also the whole of the Tory party.
Are you sure about that bit in bold?If you Brexiteers would at least try to keep up with the news, you would see that we face two (and only two) options:
(1) A very hard Brexit with huge economic damage.
(2) A face-saving climbdown of some sort where we agree a position very like membership of the EU but called something else.
It's a stark choice. Once Labour see that advocating option 2 will win them the next election, its Game Over for Brexit nutters but also the whole of the Tory party.
Theresa May said:
These are the elements of the Customs Union that prevent us from striking our own comprehensive trade agreements with other countries. But I do want us to have a customs agreement with the EU.
Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position. I have an open mind on how we do it. It is not the means that matter, but the ends.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position. I have an open mind on how we do it. It is not the means that matter, but the ends.
'A customs union' is not the same as 'the customs union'.
Atomic12C said:
I stil
'...what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
Right. I see. If a section of the media or a section of the population don't agree with a certain political lime then they are being unpatriotic. "Enemies of the People" perhaps?'...what we are seeing on a daily basis is a lefty-wing media attack on the success of Brexit. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this is surely unpatriotic.
There are certainly plenty of examples around the world where disagreeing with the party line is definitely a bad idea. Zimbabwe and North Korea spring to mind.
You haven't thought this through, have you?
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