Discussion
El stovey said:
It’s about root causes of crime and making the police be viewed as less authoritarian and more human.
If communities feel isolated and not represented by the police then perhaps they’re more likely to feel disenfranchised and commit crime,
If people feel party of society, their group moves from just being their family or gang or race or religion and they look on society as their group. That’s due to things like how the government acts towards them and whether they feel the police understand their culture and issues.
The police as the enforcers of the law and often seen as the causes for your disenfranchisement then slowly move from being the force that is against you and your group to being one that represents and protect your group, that’s a massively positive outcome for everyone.
It’s all about making people feel they’re part of uk society and hopefully they’ll then act like that rather than wanting to act against it or even destroy it.
Looking forward to the police hooking up a caravan to the back of a transit and camping out on the village green....If communities feel isolated and not represented by the police then perhaps they’re more likely to feel disenfranchised and commit crime,
If people feel party of society, their group moves from just being their family or gang or race or religion and they look on society as their group. That’s due to things like how the government acts towards them and whether they feel the police understand their culture and issues.
The police as the enforcers of the law and often seen as the causes for your disenfranchisement then slowly move from being the force that is against you and your group to being one that represents and protect your group, that’s a massively positive outcome for everyone.
It’s all about making people feel they’re part of uk society and hopefully they’ll then act like that rather than wanting to act against it or even destroy it.
Vanden Saab said:
El stovey said:
It’s about root causes of crime and making the police be viewed as less authoritarian and more human.
If communities feel isolated and not represented by the police then perhaps they’re more likely to feel disenfranchised and commit crime,
If people feel party of society, their group moves from just being their family or gang or race or religion and they look on society as their group. That’s due to things like how the government acts towards them and whether they feel the police understand their culture and issues.
The police as the enforcers of the law and often seen as the causes for your disenfranchisement then slowly move from being the force that is against you and your group to being one that represents and protect your group, that’s a massively positive outcome for everyone.
It’s all about making people feel they’re part of uk society and hopefully they’ll then act like that rather than wanting to act against it or even destroy it.
Looking forward to the police hooking up a caravan to the back of a transit and camping out on the village green....If communities feel isolated and not represented by the police then perhaps they’re more likely to feel disenfranchised and commit crime,
If people feel party of society, their group moves from just being their family or gang or race or religion and they look on society as their group. That’s due to things like how the government acts towards them and whether they feel the police understand their culture and issues.
The police as the enforcers of the law and often seen as the causes for your disenfranchisement then slowly move from being the force that is against you and your group to being one that represents and protect your group, that’s a massively positive outcome for everyone.
It’s all about making people feel they’re part of uk society and hopefully they’ll then act like that rather than wanting to act against it or even destroy it.
La Liga said:
It’s been important for the police to develop better relationships with minority groups
It's important for them to act in a professional manner- I don't think any of this qualifies.They should stop this play-acting, pretend it never happened & hope the general public forgets about it sooner rather than later.
fblm said:
La Liga said:
It’s been important for the police to develop better relationships with minority groups
Yes they seem to think so. I recall during the recent brewery invasion the Lancs ACC was at pains to point out that they "have good relations with the travelling community". Great.In terms of the latest bump of this topic it's important to consider what the aims are. The source of non-crime hate incidents can be found in the Macpherson report which was undertaken after the Stephen Lawrence murder. It was identified there were a lot of racist incidents that didn't amount to crimes, but there was no mechanism to record the information / data. Information and data that would be useful for the police to carry out their fundamental duties e.g. preventing crime and disorder.
Since then we've evolved from 'racist incidents' to 'hate incidents'. The same rationale that created the original racist incidents applies. A real-world example. After Brexit there was an increase in hostility towards people who had moved to the UK from Poland and other countries. I know of an area that was densely populated by Poles who were being abused and told to 'go home' and other similar things. These incidents didn't amount to crimes, but without proper recording measures for non-crime hate matters, then it'd have been much harder to identify a risk issue (tension between the Poles and locals which could escalate).
As a result of the recording it was possible to put in place measures to defuse the matter before it escalated.
That's the sort of information and picture the police want to gather, along with identifying vulnerable individuals who may be being targeted because of X, Y and Z in a manner which doesn't amount to a crime.
It's quite hard to convey that in a Tweet and I can understand why people would interpret it in the way they have because it's not that straight forward.
La Liga said:
fblm said:
La Liga said:
It’s been important for the police to develop better relationships with minority groups
Yes they seem to think so. I recall during the recent brewery invasion the Lancs ACC was at pains to point out that they "have good relations with the travelling community". Great.In terms of the latest bump of this topic it's important to consider what the aims are. The source of non-crime hate incidents can be found in the Macpherson report which was undertaken after the Stephen Lawrence murder. It was identified there were a lot of racist incidents that didn't amount to crimes, but there was no mechanism to record the information / data. Information and data that would be useful for the police to carry out their fundamental duties e.g. preventing crime and disorder.
Since then we've evolved from 'racist incidents' to 'hate incidents'. The same rationale that created the original racist incidents applies. A real-world example. After Brexit there was an increase in hostility towards people who had moved to the UK from Poland and other countries. I know of an area that was densely populated by Poles who were being abused and told to 'go home' and other similar things. These incidents didn't amount to crimes, but without proper recording measures for non-crime hate matters, then it'd have been much harder to identify a risk issue (tension between the Poles and locals which could escalate).
As a result of the recording it was possible to put in place measures to defuse the matter before it escalated.
That's the sort of information and picture the police want to gather, along with identifying vulnerable individuals who may be being targeted because of X, Y and Z in a manner which doesn't amount to a crime.
It's quite hard to convey that in a Tweet and I can understand why people would interpret it in the way they have because it's not that straight forward.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-4239...
Bigends said:
A good example of how not to use the information provided by a vulnerable person, perhaps. Another high profile one, here, along with other people who describe the sorts of issues the Tweet is aimed at: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/fion...
Bigends said:
Not sure that is a good example - except as an example of why the whole thing is unnecessary. This stuff was all reported to the police many times - they completely mishandled it and even sided with the offenders - can't let the poor criminals be upset. La Liga said:
Bigends said:
A good example of how not to use the information provided by a vulnerable person, perhaps. Another high profile one, here, along with other people who describe the sorts of issues the Tweet is aimed at: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/fion...
Full version of the South Yorks PCC making a complete clown of himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&...
With regards to the talk about improving relations with minority communities, what about improving relations with all communities? There is a feeling amongst many people the police are not interested in investigating certain crimes and are interested in easy targets, and this is also the same force that failed so massively over the Rotherham abuse gangs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&...
With regards to the talk about improving relations with minority communities, what about improving relations with all communities? There is a feeling amongst many people the police are not interested in investigating certain crimes and are interested in easy targets, and this is also the same force that failed so massively over the Rotherham abuse gangs.
richie99 said:
This not some invisible pretend 'hate' crime.
Both examples contain exactly the type of non-crime hate incidents the police want reporting. See IPCC reports for further info. richie99 said:
Maybe someone will come up with some evidence to support the idiotic idea but these two aren't it.
As above, both examples contain exactly the type of non-crime hate incidents the police want reporting. You appear to be mistaken since you think they aren't relevant to whatever 'idiotic idea' you think the idea is. I additionally provided an example where the system was effective.
It's important to remember this will be an important internal campaign. Both examples are reminders that officers need to recognise hate incidents and the risk some of those pose to prevent the outcomes seen in both of those examples.
Russian Troll Bot said:
With regards to the talk about improving relations with minority communities, what about improving relations with all communities? There is a feeling amongst many people the police are not interested in investigating certain crimes and are interested in easy targets, and this is also the same force that failed so massively over the Rotherham abuse gangs.
It's desirable to improve relations with everyone, but there haven't been too many murders where the police were found to be institutionally racist against the white, majority, for example. So sometimes there's specific work to be done. In terms of crime, the courts are full to capacity with large wait times for trials and prisons are nearly always full, so there's not too much of a blockage from the people who put together the investigations which form prosecutions and convictions.
Russian Troll Bot said:
Full version of the South Yorks PCC making a complete clown of himself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&...
She doesn't understand the subject matter. She's far too simplistic and binary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&...
She's also a great interviewer - just shouts and interrupts the PCC. Class act not letting him finishing his sentence about the burglary because she thought she was being clever.
La Liga said:
he doesn't understand the subject matter. She's far too simplistic and binary.
She's also a great interviewer - just shouts and interrupts the PCC.
She seems to understand better than the PCC.She's also a great interviewer - just shouts and interrupts the PCC.
It is simplistic- she wants the police to deal with crime rather than non-crime. She thinks (with justification) that the police should deal with all of the crime they currently ignore before they deal with hurt feelings.
The PCC repeated what he wanted to say rather than answering perfectly legitimate questions- she was right to interrupt him & press him to answer questions. My understanding is that the answering of these questions was the purpose of him being there.
He repeatedly stated that the SYP need the support of the public. He might not be aware that this ship sailed a long time ago, based on everything from Hillsborough to Rotherham to harassing every biker going through SY one year.
SYP and all of the others need to act in a professional manner and divert their allegedly meagre resources from PC frippery to dealing with real crime.
La Liga said:
fblm said:
La Liga said:
It’s been important for the police to develop better relationships with minority groups
Yes they seem to think so. I recall during the recent brewery invasion the Lancs ACC was at pains to point out that they "have good relations with the travelling community". Great.In terms of the latest bump of this topic it's important to consider what the aims are. The source of non-crime hate incidents can be found in the Macpherson report which was undertaken after the Stephen Lawrence murder. It was identified there were a lot of racist incidents that didn't amount to crimes, but there was no mechanism to record the information / data. Information and data that would be useful for the police to carry out their fundamental duties e.g. preventing crime and disorder.
Since then we've evolved from 'racist incidents' to 'hate incidents'. The same rationale that created the original racist incidents applies. A real-world example. After Brexit there was an increase in hostility towards people who had moved to the UK from Poland and other countries. I know of an area that was densely populated by Poles who were being abused and told to 'go home' and other similar things. These incidents didn't amount to crimes, but without proper recording measures for non-crime hate matters, then it'd have been much harder to identify a risk issue (tension between the Poles and locals which could escalate).
As a result of the recording it was possible to put in place measures to defuse the matter before it escalated.
That's the sort of information and picture the police want to gather, along with identifying vulnerable individuals who may be being targeted because of X, Y and Z in a manner which doesn't amount to a crime.
It's quite hard to convey that in a Tweet and I can understand why people would interpret it in the way they have because it's not that straight forward.
There is no excuse for this sort of s
t when actual crime is still happening. You need to attend a few less diversity seminars and get back to solving crime.WinstonWolf said:
So solving crimes that haven't happened? I guess that's easier than solving burglaries.
There is no excuse for this sort of st when actual crime is still happening. You need to attend a few less diversity seminars and get back to solving crime.
I knew as soon as I had seen you'd replied that you wouldn't have got it. There is no excuse for this sort of s
t when actual crime is still happening. You need to attend a few less diversity seminars and get back to solving crime.Re-read it again.
I can appreciate the obvious desire to protect the vulnerable from such horrific levels of abuse although I have two observations. It's hard to believe over 10 years the feral scum did not transgress into real crimes; criminal damage, threatening behaviour or assault which was ignored. Secondly for every real case like that how many hundred thousand, if not millions of incidences of people having their feelings hurt are they going to have to sift through?
Oh and one more thing; what powers do the police have to actually prevent non-crime?
Oh and one more thing; what powers do the police have to actually prevent non-crime?
La Liga said:
....After Brexit there was an increase in hostility towards people who had moved to the UK from Poland and other countries. I know of an area that was densely populated by Poles who were being abused and told to 'go home' and other similar things. These incidents didn't amount to crimes, but without proper recording measures for non-crime hate matters, then it'd have been much harder to identify a risk issue (tension between the Poles and locals which could escalate).
Its a radical idea which may not catch on, but the police could try going out on the beat and talking to people (to identify tension).fblm said:
I can appreciate the obvious desire to protect the vulnerable from such horrific levels of abuse although I have two observations. It's hard to believe over 10 years the feral scum did not transgress into real crimes; criminal damage, threatening behaviour or assault which was ignored. Secondly for every real case like that how many hundred thousand, if not millions of incidences of people having their feelings hurt are they going to have to sift through?
The majority of non-crime incidents are simply a recording exercise that'll go through the relevant part of the police call centre and be filed / closed once recorded. Where there's some element of risk or link to a larger pattern, it may be forwarded to actual police officers / PCSOs to do something with. This is what the likes of the clueless interviewer fail to understand. Just because the law would allow someone to ring up and say that they perceive a social media post is targeted at them because they're gay / disabled etc, doesn't mean anything will happen with it / impact on any police officer time.
I don't think the campaign will result in lots of pointless reporting of 'hurt feelings' like people are speculating. If there are some stupid ones then they'll get recorded and filed by people whom record matters for their job. It'll have no impact other than potentially increasing wait times for people to record crimes.
The PCC could have spoken about this element a bit more, although he wasn't allowed to string more than 5 words together without being interrupted so it would have been pointless.
fblm said:
Oh and one more thing; what powers do the police have to actually prevent non-crime?
What we need to remember is the police have evolved and expanded well beyond dealing with crime. Over 80% of calls are not crime related. It would depend on the nature of the matter. If it's young children calling a disabled man names because he's disabled, then a PCSO may visit the children's parents to solve it. The police deal with a lot of anti-social behaviour that isn't necessarily criminal. There are various matters which may be passed on to other public sectors to get involved e.g. NHS, housing, social services / other. A fundamental part of neighbourhood teams was this sort of partnership working. A vulnerable person calling the police and reporting they're experiencing X because they perceive it to be because they're Y can trigger off a referral which helps them etc.
Previous said:
La Liga said:
....After Brexit there was an increase in hostility towards people who had moved to the UK from Poland and other countries. I know of an area that was densely populated by Poles who were being abused and told to 'go home' and other similar things. These incidents didn't amount to crimes, but without proper recording measures for non-crime hate matters, then it'd have been much harder to identify a risk issue (tension between the Poles and locals which could escalate).
Its a radical idea which may not catch on, but the police could try going out on the beat and talking to people (to identify tension).Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 11th September 21:33
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