Jeremy Corbyn Vol. 2

[Moonhawk]

technodup said:

'Progressive' is a crock of utter st. Meaningless pish from people who want to be seen as fluffy and caring but espouse ideas which are neither.

The problem is they are confusing different meanings of the word "progressive".

In tax terms - "progressive" simply means:

"noting or pertaining to a form of taxation in which the rate increases with certain increases in taxable income"

Whereas when people talk about a 'progressive tax system' it's almost as if they are indicating it's a positive thing and means:

"making progress toward better conditions; employing or advocating more enlightened or liberal ideas"

They conflate the two definitions.

Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 25th June 13:34

[bitchstewie]

Dr Jekyll said:

No, because they are minimum rates not compulsory rates. You can always pay the skilled 17yr old more, and if the 27 year old is totally unskilled why not employ a 19 or 17 year old instead?

Yes they are and yes you could, but it still seems odd in 2017 that there are a million and one things that if I'm an employer I cannot legally discriminate on yet I can have two people with the exact same skills and experience (or lack of) and blatantly pay one less than the other because of when they were born.

[poo at Paul's]

dimots said:

poo at Paul's said:

Chinny rec!! Come on then, how much do you pay "your" staff. £10 per hour....??

Being someone's line manager, (and not having to pay the bills) is not "employing" someone....
Oh and ordering a taxi doesn't count neither.

Edited by poo at Paul's on Sunday 25th June 11:47

I have four businesses, two of which employ people. One is a retail business (clothing and sporting goods) and has 2 PAYE who earn c.£18k per annum (pro rata) and the other is an online marketing business all made up of contractors who get an hourly rate of minimum £20/hour (when they are doing hourly billable stuff).

So the £18k is less than £10 per hour? So you pay them minimum wage or just less than your mate Corbyn wants? You sound like you are exploiting them! Shame on you.
If he gets in at least you wont have Corporation tax to worry about, as the increased staff costs will wipe out the extra tax payable in profits.

PS what type of work do they do? Professional services? Or cleaning, take away work, "Golf sale" board holder? Because if Corbyn gets his way, people will be paying (well, they wont) £10 per hour (Plus NIC) holding a Golf Sale sandwich board.. at 16years old!
If you think you could employ such people and it be worth it, more fool you!

[dimots]

Progressive politics in most people's understanding surely refers to progressivism and in contemporary terms particularly with reducing growing wealth inequality.

[gooner1]

Jockman said:

Morning gooner

Nothing like the smell of fresh ground coffee, listening to the birds outside and attending to somebody's pissed posting from last night.

And a very good afternoon to yourself Jockers.
Very apt, your comment re birds and being outside, I think I may have just reached
my prefered positition on a local lake as you posted,spot of fishing, don't you know.
Just about to settle down and watch the Gran Prix, that's some size dress the singers
wearing, btw.

Will just leave this here, http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/82a80cdc-5b4b-11da-b221-... for Jonesy' and anyone
else that has any interest at all.

It would seem the link I provided is time sensitive, and a fee has to be paid, after that time.
However, if anyone cares to do a search for Patently Unfair by the FT, you should be able to view it.

Edited by gooner1 on Sunday 25th June 18:48

[wst]

I'm still a bit baffled how few people understand marginal propensity to consume and how it results in poorer people paying more of their income as tax despite income tax rates increasing as income increases, especially if those on higher incomes have access to VAT write-offs that those on lower ones aren't able to use.

[Donkey Of The Damned]

technodup said:

dimots said:

Personally I'm more inclined towards the universal living wage, but £10 minimum is progressive, as is extending it to 16 year olds...so I'm in favour of it.

Is it still progressive if companies realise a 25yo is likely to be more reliable and productive than a 16yo and as such youth unemployment rises?

'Progressive' is a crock of utter st. Meaningless pish from people who want to be seen as fluffy and caring but espouse ideas which are neither.

Why would an unemployed 25 year old be more reliable and productive than an unemployed 16 year old? One has had 9 years to hold down a job.

Your second paragraph is the usual condescending ball locks from the right which led so many people to vote for progressive parties.

[Anubis]

I got (at the time) an incredible £5.10 an hour when I was 16 stacking shelves in a well known retailer - I was well chuffed with myself. I saved some, spent most of it learning to drive and the rest was basically pissed up the wall. I never once thought of paying any bills, rent or anything else simply because I didn't have any. If you offered any 16 year old kid £10 an hour to do a job they'd be moronic to turn it down.

Surely that's a little unfair to someone in their 20s and beyond also earning minimum wage - they have so much more responsibility and experience. There would be resentment that some 16 carefree kid is getting rewarded the same amount as someone that might have to pay for their children, bills, rent, etc yet does not offer the same level of experience and commitment.

I doubt there would be much resentment though because employers would always pick the more experienced person that costs the same (cannot afford both), therefor creating a load of unemployable, inexperienced 16 year olds. Making minimum wage go up in steps may seem unfair to youngsters at the time but in hindsight it's the best thing to do - basically work your way up and prove yourself. Each step allows you to appreciate money and how much effort is involved obtaining it.

Give a 16 year old child £10 an hour and they will just blow the lot on crap and offer very little in return (they need training, constant looking after, can only do basic jobs, make lots of mistakes that cost time and money, etc, etc)

Edited by Anubis on Sunday 25th June 14:30

[Goaty Bill 2]

Larry Eldar - Liberal Logic on Minimum Wage

Thomas Sowell - Minimum Wage, Maximum Folly

[anonymous-user]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Lots of interesting stuff including....

And thus the core of my dislike for and complete distrust of Corbyn, McDonnell and their ilk.
Why can they not openly disavow their Marxism and just be socialists? Why does McDonnell still thirst for revolution?
Because they have never believed the truth of the stories of the people who escaped. They have an ideology that has been the core of their reason for existence and it has utterly consumed them to the point that the person is indistinguishable from the ideology and the ideology similarly indistinguishable from the person.
It is hard to get rid of that much hatred, as we clearly see exhibited by McDonnell. If Corbyn is truly more moderate and willing for peaceful democracy, then why does he stay closely associated with, and constantly defend McDonnell?

I've not done my background research like
I should ... but where does this ideology come from for people like Corbyn and McDonnell? Was it seeded at birth, during their early informative years or something else.

I just cannot get my head around anyone espousing Marxism.

[Goaty Bill 2]

garyhun said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Lots of interesting stuff including....

And thus the core of my dislike for and complete distrust of Corbyn, McDonnell and their ilk.
Why can they not openly disavow their Marxism and just be socialists? Why does McDonnell still thirst for revolution?
Because they have never believed the truth of the stories of the people who escaped. They have an ideology that has been the core of their reason for existence and it has utterly consumed them to the point that the person is indistinguishable from the ideology and the ideology similarly indistinguishable from the person.
It is hard to get rid of that much hatred, as we clearly see exhibited by McDonnell. If Corbyn is truly more moderate and willing for peaceful democracy, then why does he stay closely associated with, and constantly defend McDonnell?

I've not done my background research like
I should ... but where does this ideology come from for people like Corbyn and McDonnell? Was it seeded at birth, during their early informative years or something else.

I just cannot get my head around anyone espousing Marxism.

I can't answer for Corbyn and McDonnell with any certainty, but it was quite trendy to be a communist in the '50s and '60s as some sort of proof or badge of intellectualism. All part of the counter culture etc. and a somewhat natural extension of earlier socialism.
The brothers Hitchens were active Trotskyists in their youth. Each in their own way ended up quite some distance to the 'right' of centre on many issues.

Our current systems, with their obvious in-built socialist institutions, require constant tweaking and are far from perfect.
A party like Labour can do it's part with a moderate approach; keeping the Tories 'honest' and taking the reins when they screw up, make their own kind of mess, and then see the cycle repeat. (yes I mean they will both mess up)


Einstein defined Insanity as: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

So why would anyone keep repeating the Marxist experiment?
How many tens of millions have to die before that particular insanity is finally seen as folly?
We have almost entirely done away with Laissez-faire capitalism in the west, because it is cruel and divisive, why cannot Marxism go the same way...

I suppose it will always seem attractive to a substantial portion of the young, the poor, the disenfranchised, and therefore be seen as a route to power for those that are most interested in power for it's own sake.

[anonymous-user]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

I can't answer for Corbyn and McDonnell with any certainty, but it was quite trendy to be a communist in the '50s and '60s as some sort of proof or badge of intellectualism. All part of the counter culture etc. and a somewhat natural extension of earlier socialism.
The brothers Hitchens were active Trotskyists in their youth. Each in their own way ended up quite some distance to the 'right' of centre on many issues.

Our current systems, with their obvious in-built socialist institutions, require constant tweaking and are far from perfect.
A party like Labour can do it's part with a moderate approach; keeping the Tories 'honest' and taking the reins when they screw up, make their own kind of mess, and then see the cycle repeat. (yes I mean they will both mess up)


Einstein defined Insanity as: "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

So why would anyone keep repeating the Marxist experiment?
How many tens of millions have to die before that particular insanity is finally seen as folly?
We have almost entirely done away with Laissez-faire capitalism in the west, because it is cruel and divisive, why cannot Marxism go the same way...

I suppose it will always seem attractive to a substantial portion of the young, the poor, the disenfranchised, and therefore be seen as a route to power for those that are most interested in power for it's own sake.

Good points all round and thanks. I'd almost completely forgotten about the 'trendy' angle!

[dimots]

Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists (they are not espousing revolution), the Labour manifesto is not Marxist, what are you lot banging on about?

[johnxjsc1985]

dimots said:

Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists (they are not espousing revolution), the Labour manifesto is not Marxist, what are you lot banging on about?

John McDonnel not a Marxist is like saying is the Pope a Catholic

[Dr Jekyll]

dimots said:

Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists (they are not espousing revolution), the Labour manifesto is not Marxist, what are you lot banging on about?

At the risk of attracting a Parrot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lCcFjRhiaw

[skahigh]

dimots said:

Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists (they are not espousing revolution), the Labour manifesto is not Marxist, what are you lot banging on about?

John McDonnell disagrees with you.

https://youtu.be/9lCcFjRhiaw

Edit. Ha, beaten to it.

[jmorgan]

Dr Jekyll said:

dimots said:

Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists (they are not espousing revolution), the Labour manifesto is not Marxist, what are you lot banging on about?

At the risk of attracting a Parrot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lCcFjRhiaw

And look to the sponsors, Red Len and his comrades.

[Donkey Of The Damned]

Anubis said:

Surely that's a little unfair to someone in their 20s and beyond also earning minimum wage - they have so much more responsibility and experience. There would be resentment that some 16 carefree kid is getting rewarded the same amount as someone that might have to pay for their children, bills, rent, etc yet does not offer the same level of experience and commitment.

So a person stacking the same shelves should be payed more or less because of purely how old they are? Isn't that a bit backwards?

By your same "bills" logic, should working parents have their pay multiplied for every child they have or those with 2nd or third homes payed more by their employers because of all the bills they have to cover?

It doesn't work like that unfortunately. Your lifestyle adapts to your income. Not the other way around.

[Donkey Of The Damned]

BIANCO said:

Can someone please tell Corbyn and labour that general election is over and they can stop campaigning now. For some reason they don't seem to be able to get that they lost. They can come up as many policies as they like none of them will be implemented.

Except a General Election sometime in the next year isn't the most unlikely thing. And he has just taken the lead in the polls over the useless, inept Tories.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-cor...

I'm looking forward to incoming Labour government. Get this country back to its former glories.

[Yipper]

garyhun said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Lots of interesting stuff including....

And thus the core of my dislike for and complete distrust of Corbyn, McDonnell and their ilk.
Why can they not openly disavow their Marxism and just be socialists? Why does McDonnell still thirst for revolution?
Because they have never believed the truth of the stories of the people who escaped. They have an ideology that has been the core of their reason for existence and it has utterly consumed them to the point that the person is indistinguishable from the ideology and the ideology similarly indistinguishable from the person.
It is hard to get rid of that much hatred, as we clearly see exhibited by McDonnell. If Corbyn is truly more moderate and willing for peaceful democracy, then why does he stay closely associated with, and constantly defend McDonnell?

I've not done my background research like
I should ... but where does this ideology come from for people like Corbyn and McDonnell? Was it seeded at birth, during their early informative years or something else.

I just cannot get my head around anyone espousing Marxism.

There is good research to suggest people, on the whole, vote like their parents. Like religious ideology, you grow up in a household with your parents' political ideology. If you hear daily about Allah or Marx (inputs), you are more likely to talk about Allah or Marx (outputs).

Corbyn and McDonnell obviously had some fun as communist, anti-establishment agitators in their early years and have never grown out of it. They seem to like the buzz.

For example, Corbyn this week went to Glastonbury -- a place with a big wall around it to keep out poor people without the right documents... where he promptly slagged off an American place that wants to build a big wall around it to keep out poor people without the right documents... and ~50k people still chanted Corbyn's name like a new Messiah, despite the obvious hypocrisy... Leftwingism and its virtue-signaling are easy fodder to massage your egomania and control-freakery.