Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Is it better than the 2 days it took in 2014 (and required hauners from NATO)?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2867929/Na...

Why do you have a link to an article 4 years ago/how did you find it?

Also it doesn’t answer the question raised and is totally different to aircraft flying into our airspace to attack

[r11co]

Alpacaman said:

I am sure I have posted this before, but for the benefit of our raging nats-

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/you-are-not-oppressed/

I said a few pages back that many separatists are using the fight for independence as a proxy for their own grievances on the back of the SNP promising to anyone who will listen that independence is the solution to every problem (see Tartan Pixie for a textbook example - who thinks an independent Scotland will be a socialist utopia). This patently cannot be true and the longer the SNP try to spin the plates the more likely the contradictory factions of the support will clash.

For the record - the Growth Commission Report used Singapore and Hong Kong as comparator states when calculating the potential growth figures of a country with a similar population to Scotland. Yep, those bastions of high taxation and redistribution of wealth Singapore and Hong Kong.

[gofasterrosssco]

Strocky said:

gofasterrosssco said:

It's a sensible and pragmatic solution to agree a small proportion (85% goes DIRECTLY to devolved admins) is subject to further discussion. As Brexit is against the clock, there is no time or political resource to sort out all of these things right now.

Could you please name me one policy area (that's what they are, not 'powers') which the Scot gov. will no longer be able to legislate for? Just one... Please..

Your 85% stat is a spurious meaningless stat chucked in to make it look like largesse from the UK Gov

Say in a trade deal the UK Gov faces the decision, rule in direct conflict with the Scottish Parliament's wishes on a specific law or scupper a trade deal?
What option would you take as an Unionist?

Here's an idea of what powers the UK Gov will control for up to 7 years from Wales, Scotland & NI
Food Branding, GM foods, Sunday opening, minimum pricing, animal welfare, fracking, public procurement

https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/10089732421267...

Ok, I can give you actual numbers if percentages are too difficult to understand?

Yes, that is exactly the point of having commonality across a number of developed areas. Even Heretic-nationalist Jim Sillars understands this point. The fact that you'd don't like it, doesn't justify your point. Instead nats have engaged in their own project fear, imagining we'll be signing trade deals with North Korea to buy toxic chicken or some other random crap, conveniently forgetting the UK has been responsible for many of the high standards the EU has adopted over the years..

Given that Holyrood already legislates (and has fairly recently) on most of the above, this isn't going to change. I think you are misunderstanding the facts that there's a cross over in most of these aspects with the EU (now to be UK) which hasn't stopped Holyrood changing these before.

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

Strocky said:

Your 85% stat is a spurious meaningless stat chucked in to make it look like largesse from the UK Gov

Say in a trade deal the UK Gov faces the decision, rule in direct conflict with the Scottish Parliament's wishes on a specific law or scupper a trade deal?
What option would you take as an Unionist?

Here's an idea of what powers the UK Gov will control for up to 7 years from Wales, Scotland & NI
Food Branding, GM foods, Sunday opening, minimum pricing, animal welfare, fracking, public procurement

https://twitter.com/tradasro/status/10089732421267...

And?
You give the impression that the U.K. govt once powers are back from EU would start to allow eating and cats and dogs to destroy the countryside with fracking /or open cast mining which happens in so many places

You've answered your own question

No I was taking the piss out of you

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

What is happening to the Scottish airport that went bust and then the SNP took it into national ownership?

Is it still loss making and if so by how much is it denying the poorest and most needy the help in NHS or education or benefits they do dearly need?

This Scottish Airport?

https://twitter.com/TrulyScottishtv/status/1001152...

Sorry I don’t use twitter so cannot see that.

Have the SNo nationalised more than 1 airport which went bankrupt? If not then that’s the one I mean.

It was losing what £20million A year what’s its profit and loss statement for its time in national hands?

[gofasterrosssco]

Welshbeef said:

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

What is happening to the Scottish airport that went bust and then the SNP took it into national ownership?

Is it still loss making and if so by how much is it denying the poorest and most needy the help in NHS or education or benefits they do dearly need?

This Scottish Airport?

https://twitter.com/TrulyScottishtv/status/1001152...

Sorry I don’t use twitter so cannot see that.

Have the SNo nationalised more than 1 airport which went bankrupt? If not then that’s the one I mean.

It was losing what £20million A year what’s its profit and loss statement for its time in national hands?

Quiet. I'm getting cheap flights to Malaga next month. I'd have to go from Glasgow or Edinburgh, rather than trapesing down to Ayrshire other wise.. The extra-long runway is essential to allow aircraft to get up to speed given the quantity of booze maintained on board..

[hidetheelephants]

Tartan Pixie said:

By looking at northern Europe we know there's no particular barrier to creating a motorway and port network in rugged terrain but a UK government will always point to the greater cost/benefit of investing infrastructure in the south. This leads to a feedback loop where Scotland experiences emigration to places where the infrastructure is, which means it's not worth investing in a well populated Scotland because everyone's going south to work, which means it's not worth building motorways and infrastructure, which means more people move south, etc, ad nauseam.

Question - In an independent Scotland there is an imperative to provide infrastructure and population growth north of the Ochils as a matter of national survival in a competitive world. In comparison Westminster have continuously proved their commitment to keeping the highlands as a rural theme park where people die a lot when trying to overtake. Why the juddering fk should I trust Westminster to provide even a modicum of what Scotland needs to become once independent.

Roads are a devolved issue and the SNP seem to have developed exactly the same mingebag tendencies that the Scottish Office used to display toward any road proposal north of the central belt not directed toward Aberdeen; for example I would direct you to the concrete carbuncle that was built a wee while ago in the middle of a bloody national park instead of doing what would be done in that europe and boring a tunnel. Then there's the enduring st sandwich at the Rest And Be Thankful; every other year the thing is closed for anything up to a fortnight because of landslides, wrecking the local economy as the available diversions involve either goat tracks unfit for large vehicles or ferries. Have the SNP committed to bypassing the RABT? No, they paid for a snow job consultant report and promptly developed short arms and deep pockets.

Tartan Pixie said:

Context - Most of my family are English and I have a deep love of the English countryside, folk music and history. I'd be willing to bet that I've danced round more maypoles and spent more solstices at ancient sites than your average English person. Probably done more sailing/cricket too but that was only because of the cakes, even as an honorary Glaswegian (originally from Stirling) I have never seen so many calories per mouthful but you guys do it with cream n eggs n flour n fruits n stuff which is so much more classy than square and bacon in a butter slathered roll.

You've not travelled much in Scotland if you've never encountered 'hyperglycaemic death by baked goods' at any kind of local event from a coffee morning to a literary festival via a grudge match between local crown green bowling teams.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Tuesday 19th June 10:14

[Strocky]

Welshbeef said:

No I was taking the piss out of you

With all due respect, you couldn't take the piss out of a catheter, Beefers

[Strocky]

https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1008992236...

[Strocky]

gofasterrosssco said:

Ok, I can give you actual numbers if percentages are too difficult to understand?

Yes, that is exactly the point of having commonality across a number of developed areas. Even Heretic-nationalist Jim Sillars understands this point. The fact that you'd don't like it, doesn't justify your point. Instead nats have engaged in their own project fear, imagining we'll be signing trade deals with North Korea to buy toxic chicken or some other random crap, conveniently forgetting the UK has been responsible for many of the high standards the EU has adopted over the years..

Given that Holyrood already legislates (and has fairly recently) on most of the above, this isn't going to change. I think you are misunderstanding the facts that there's a cross over in most of these aspects with the EU (now to be UK) which hasn't stopped Holyrood changing these before.

Your starter for 10, GM food is banned in Scotland, it isn't in England & Wales

Given that Theresa May just the other day shafted her own backbencher (Dominic Grieve) over a Brexit Amendment, it reminds me of the scorpion and the frog fable

However if the useful idiot May is no longer in charge, I'm sure Boris "A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde" Johnson or Michael "The Danes don't need to worry about fishing after Brexit" will have Scotland's interests at heart

[Uppity]

gofasterrosssco said:

Uppity said:

gofasterrosssco said:

So, you equate having a veto in the European Parliament, being what, less than 1% representation, with approx. 9% in WM? Forgetting all the influence and aspects in various committees and gov agencies, with most power excised through the civil service than anything else.

So Scotland is just going to veto stuff it doesn't agree with.. How lose friends and alienate yourself. I think you'd find Scotland would be fairly easily bent to the EU's will when financial carrots are dangled.. That's why small nations have little clout..

Again - that is something an independent Scotland would have to consider when deciding what its relationship with the EU should be.

Ok, fair enough. But two questions:

1) Why can't we consider it now (and haven't we been)?

We have - in the UK context - and we have given a decisive response, but that was subsumed into the UK response (larger population with different agenda trumps smaller population every time)

gofasterrosssco said:

2) What makes you think we'd have a choice?

At a very high level, the recreation of an independent Scotland will require a period of transition away from the UK, followed by a Scottish General Election to elect the new Government. I've no idea what the new political make-up of Scotland might be, but there will be parties vying for your vote with either pro- and anti-EU policies. Your decision.

gofasterrosssco said:

The likely reality (not set in stone, just going by previous form) is that we'd be offered a 'take it or leave it' EU offer,

And you could vote accordingly - in an independent Scotland

Edited by Uppity on Tuesday 19th June 11:51

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

No I was taking the piss out of you

With all due respect, you couldn't take the piss out of a catheter, Beefers

There wasn’t an ounce of respect in that response.

Yet still you refuse to address questions do you have any more random irrelevant and off topic links to daily mail ?

[Silverbullet767]

Christ, the nats are crawling out of the woodwork, aren't they?

One last hurrah?

[Strocky]

Welshbeef said:

There wasn’t an ounce of respect in that response.

Yet still you refuse to address questions do you have any more random irrelevant and off topic links to daily mail ?

Respect has to be earnt, apply some joined up thinking and the "random" links might make some sense
Learning to use Twitter may be helpful for you as well

[r11co]

Silverbullet767 said:

Christ, the nats are crawling out of the woodwork, aren't they?

That's the thing though, they aren't really arguing Nat. Read the subtext of their recent posts and you can see its more to do with anti-Conservative sentiment. That's what seems to bring them out.

As I said - nationalism is just the proxy and the SNP are playing this faction of their support for fools every time Nicola spits 'HARD TOAREE BREXIT'' (not happening, BTW) and 'TOAREE AUSTERITY' (non-existent - see earlier). I am reminded of referendum day 2014 when SNats hung a banner over the M8 carrying the words 'Thatcher No More'. Point.....missed.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 19th June 12:19

[gofasterrosssco]

Strocky said:

gofasterrosssco said:

Ok, I can give you actual numbers if percentages are too difficult to understand?

Yes, that is exactly the point of having commonality across a number of developed areas. Even Heretic-nationalist Jim Sillars understands this point. The fact that you'd don't like it, doesn't justify your point. Instead nats have engaged in their own project fear, imagining we'll be signing trade deals with North Korea to buy toxic chicken or some other random crap, conveniently forgetting the UK has been responsible for many of the high standards the EU has adopted over the years..

Given that Holyrood already legislates (and has fairly recently) on most of the above, this isn't going to change. I think you are misunderstanding the facts that there's a cross over in most of these aspects with the EU (now to be UK) which hasn't stopped Holyrood changing these before.

Your starter for 10, GM food is banned in Scotland, it isn't in England & Wales

Given that Theresa May just the other day shafted her own backbencher (Dominic Grieve) over a Brexit Amendment, it reminds me of the scorpion and the frog fable

However if the useful idiot May is no longer in charge, I'm sure Boris "A pound spent in Croydon is far more of value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde" Johnson or Michael "The Danes don't need to worry about fishing after Brexit" will have Scotland's interests at heart

You're putting the cart before the horse there - growing of GM crops is currently 'banned' (although the term 'banned' seems to be somewhat subjective in Holyrood), as is fracking (maybe, allegedly, possibly) in Scotland. The 'powers' transferred back to the UK gov are simply those that the EU had (which permitted GM crops in the EU). They are not stipulating that Holyrood will be over-ruled. Its a technical process with no direct political impact on the devolved admins. The actual details and potential real effects will be subject to further internal negotiations.

Maybe the UK gov agrees to continue to use GM crops (ignoring the science that they may be a good thing for second), but as per the current situation, that does not mean they are over-ruling a devolved admin. Like many of the things complained about by nats, the Scottish gov. has the power to take a different path. Weird how the EU are entrusted with such power but the UK is not..

That's why this is all primarily about making political hay and scare-mongering..

Fair enough, you are welcome to distrust Tories and their track record, as many of us distrust the SNP and their track record, but all you are doing is speculating based on your own political ideology, not on facts.

What's not in doubt is the cluster-f*ck that is Brexit. And interesting study for those who maintain Scotland would slip out of the UK without major political turmoil.

[gofasterrosssco]

Uppity said:

gofasterrosssco said:

Uppity said:

gofasterrosssco said:

So, you equate having a veto in the European Parliament, being what, less than 1% representation, with approx. 9% in WM? Forgetting all the influence and aspects in various committees and gov agencies, with most power excised through the civil service than anything else.

So Scotland is just going to veto stuff it doesn't agree with.. How lose friends and alienate yourself. I think you'd find Scotland would be fairly easily bent to the EU's will when financial carrots are dangled.. That's why small nations have little clout..

Again - that is something an independent Scotland would have to consider when deciding what its relationship with the EU should be.

Ok, fair enough. But two questions:

1) Why can't we consider it now (and haven't we been)?

We have - in the UK context - and we have given a decisive response, but that was subsumed into the UK response (larger population with different agenda trumps smaller population every time)

gofasterrosssco said:

2) What makes you think we'd have a choice?

At a very high level, the recreation of an independent Scotland will require a period of transition away from the UK, followed by a Scottish General Election to elect the new Government. I've no idea what the new political make-up of Scotland might be, but there will be parties vying for your vote with either pro- and anti-EU policies. Your decision.

gofasterrosssco said:

The likely reality (not set in stone, just going by previous form) is that we'd be offered a 'take it or leave it' EU offer,

And you could vote accordingly - in an independent Scotland

Edited by Uppity on Tuesday 19th June 11:51

Missing the point I was making - we Scots can have as many internal votes as we want, but that makes no difference to our external relationships (or lack there of). We can decide we want to rejoin the EU but not adopt the Euro - how do you think that will play out?

Your point about making a decision when you're there is just a rehash of old stuff from years ago. Point is you have no idea. And the real options both either heavily contradict your whole agreement for political or economic freedom (rejoin the EU), or throw Scotland in as an isolationist country who isn't willing to compromise to join a mutually beneficial union (either UK or EU).

[Welshbeef]

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

There wasn’t an ounce of respect in that response.

Yet still you refuse to address questions do you have any more random irrelevant and off topic links to daily mail ?

Respect has to be earnt, apply some joined up thinking and the "random" links might make some sense
Learning to use Twitter may be helpful for you as well

It might be but thought choice I do not and never have used twitter or Facebook and I do not intend to start.

So cut to the chase and explain

[Silverbullet767]

Welshbeef said:

Strocky said:

Welshbeef said:

There wasn’t an ounce of respect in that response.

Yet still you refuse to address questions do you have any more random irrelevant and off topic links to daily mail ?

Respect has to be earnt, apply some joined up thinking and the "random" links might make some sense
Learning to use Twitter may be helpful for you as well

It might be but thought choice I do not and never have used twitter or Facebook and I do not intend to start.

So cut to the chase and explain

All his stories and facts will be from twitter or facebook, you just have to google 'confirmation bias' to see why he uses these outlets.

[Uppity]

r11co said:

Silverbullet767 said:

Christ, the nats are crawling out of the woodwork, aren't they?

That's the thing though, they aren't really arguing Nat. Read the subtext of their recent posts and you can see its more to do with anti-Conservative sentiment. That's what seems to bring them out.

Nope. Just in favour of Scotland being in charge of its own destiny.