Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8
Discussion
Alpacaman said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-...
This is the same field the Nats tried to claim was being kept secret during the referendum, despite it being on the news and David Cameron visiting and being filmed there. The workers were supposedly all sent home and forbidden to mention it, despite everyone knowing about it.
The same oil that all the SNP based all their financials on, then tried to claim it was just a bonus when the price tanked. The same oil the SNP don't want to use because they are banning petrol and diesel vehicles, especially so they don't upset the green wing of the snp, who are propping up this lame duck administration. They are happy when the extraction takes place offshore, but you are "banned" from doing it onshore. Does this about sum up the hypocrisy that surrounds the snp?
Oh I know, I tested a load of the rig floor equipment for that rig within the past couple of years. This is the same field the Nats tried to claim was being kept secret during the referendum, despite it being on the news and David Cameron visiting and being filmed there. The workers were supposedly all sent home and forbidden to mention it, despite everyone knowing about it.
The same oil that all the SNP based all their financials on, then tried to claim it was just a bonus when the price tanked. The same oil the SNP don't want to use because they are banning petrol and diesel vehicles, especially so they don't upset the green wing of the snp, who are propping up this lame duck administration. They are happy when the extraction takes place offshore, but you are "banned" from doing it onshore. Does this about sum up the hypocrisy that surrounds the snp?
It was specifically the 'newly' bit I was referring to. As in was he genuinely insinuating that it was trying to be hidden from the public.
andy_s said:
After two years wading through the turgid political morass that is disentanglement from the EU, which is still unresolved and will no doubt not please anyone at all in its final form, after seeing the poor quality of our 'leadership', opposition and MPs in general on all sides, and the bitter acrimony driven by egotistical, self-serving and borderline psychopathic personalities, after seeing that there is zero interest in bettering the country, seeing a population clamouring for another vote on one hand and a crash out on the other, after seeing all of that, is it beyond the wit of the Scottish electorate to extrapolate their own situation and future through this lens - because Westminster and Holyrood are the same ilk, they are populated by the same class of incompetent egotists, make no mistake - and see that perhaps a canny position is to stay in a mutually beneficial union, with certain downsides granted, but also large advantages and at least a normal continuation of life for the 'man in the street' rather than being led by the nose by a party that after 50 years of existence solely for independence couldn't actually come up with a rational, honest plan to leave when the big day came [what they came up with would have sunk Scotland into the financial seas, based as it was on dreams, fantasy and lies, what's the spot price on oil now...] and won't be able to come up with anything better next time either.
Nationalism, pride, 'independence', freedom; these are just tools for the seekers of power to leverage people into making poor decisions based on what they feel rather than what they know. It's reprehensible to dress a will to power up in a saltire of dreams, and you'll realise soon enough that the dreams are but nightmares, the plan is but lies and the suffering will be done by the people, not the government. The lie is seen as soon as you notice that leaving isn't based on what we can do better, but instead is based on the blame for all ills on 'them' with no cogent vision for the future.
Charlatans and humbug circus performers that con us into believing they are great wizards. They've tricked you, and you just blink.
When you've had one bunch of idiots running things, you might as well give the other bunch of idiots a shot. Nationalism, pride, 'independence', freedom; these are just tools for the seekers of power to leverage people into making poor decisions based on what they feel rather than what they know. It's reprehensible to dress a will to power up in a saltire of dreams, and you'll realise soon enough that the dreams are but nightmares, the plan is but lies and the suffering will be done by the people, not the government. The lie is seen as soon as you notice that leaving isn't based on what we can do better, but instead is based on the blame for all ills on 'them' with no cogent vision for the future.
Charlatans and humbug circus performers that con us into believing they are great wizards. They've tricked you, and you just blink.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
B210bandit said:
When you've had one bunch of idiots running things, you might as well give the other bunch of idiots a shot.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
B210bandit said:
When you've had one bunch of idiots running things, you might as well give the other bunch of idiots a shot.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
(Most of) Scotland isn't stupid enough to jump into an even deeper hole after falling into one already. How does fixing uncertainty with uncertainty help? There you go SNP, I've just outdone you with logic - fixing uncertainty with uncertainty. The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
I note Sturgeon, more recently, bangs on about Brexit as "jumping off a cliff" then surely to use her analogy indyref(2) would be "jumping off planet earth" in comparison.
B210bandit said:
andy_s said:
After two years wading through the turgid political morass that is disentanglement from the EU, which is still unresolved and will no doubt not please anyone at all in its final form, after seeing the poor quality of our 'leadership', opposition and MPs in general on all sides, and the bitter acrimony driven by egotistical, self-serving and borderline psychopathic personalities, after seeing that there is zero interest in bettering the country, seeing a population clamouring for another vote on one hand and a crash out on the other, after seeing all of that, is it beyond the wit of the Scottish electorate to extrapolate their own situation and future through this lens - because Westminster and Holyrood are the same ilk, they are populated by the same class of incompetent egotists, make no mistake - and see that perhaps a canny position is to stay in a mutually beneficial union, with certain downsides granted, but also large advantages and at least a normal continuation of life for the 'man in the street' rather than being led by the nose by a party that after 50 years of existence solely for independence couldn't actually come up with a rational, honest plan to leave when the big day came [what they came up with would have sunk Scotland into the financial seas, based as it was on dreams, fantasy and lies, what's the spot price on oil now...] and won't be able to come up with anything better next time either.
Nationalism, pride, 'independence', freedom; these are just tools for the seekers of power to leverage people into making poor decisions based on what they feel rather than what they know. It's reprehensible to dress a will to power up in a saltire of dreams, and you'll realise soon enough that the dreams are but nightmares, the plan is but lies and the suffering will be done by the people, not the government. The lie is seen as soon as you notice that leaving isn't based on what we can do better, but instead is based on the blame for all ills on 'them' with no cogent vision for the future.
Charlatans and humbug circus performers that con us into believing they are great wizards. They've tricked you, and you just blink.
When you've had one bunch of idiots running things, you might as well give the other bunch of idiots a shot. Nationalism, pride, 'independence', freedom; these are just tools for the seekers of power to leverage people into making poor decisions based on what they feel rather than what they know. It's reprehensible to dress a will to power up in a saltire of dreams, and you'll realise soon enough that the dreams are but nightmares, the plan is but lies and the suffering will be done by the people, not the government. The lie is seen as soon as you notice that leaving isn't based on what we can do better, but instead is based on the blame for all ills on 'them' with no cogent vision for the future.
Charlatans and humbug circus performers that con us into believing they are great wizards. They've tricked you, and you just blink.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
Kierkegaard said:
B210bandit said:
When you've had one bunch of idiots running things, you might as well give the other bunch of idiots a shot.
The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
(Most of) Scotland isn't stupid enough to jump into an even deeper hole after falling into one already. How does fixing uncertainty with uncertainty help? There you go SNP, I've just outdone you with logic - fixing uncertainty with uncertainty. The British government will really be panicking about Scotland now that it's screwed itself with the EU. Nightmare scenario of England surrounded by EU countries and having no say. Massive chip on the national shoulder.
I note Sturgeon, more recently, bangs on about Brexit as "jumping off a cliff" then surely to use her analogy indyref(2) would be "jumping off planet earth" in comparison.
@B20bandit; the substitution of one set of incompetents for another will neither advance nor better, it will only worsen, as then they see how foolish we really are and take advantage, such is their want.
REALIST123 said:
Do you really think the EU would want another lame duck to feed off the two or three contributing nations?
But it's fine, Spain have said it is, and we all know that Scotland will have a much bigger say in running the EU than they do at Westminster. Plus we are the worlds biggest oil producer and after independence we will have more money than we will know what to do with. (Strocky am I doing this right?) 
Of course the EU would take Scotland. It's completely naive to think they wouldn't (although political naivete and Britain are close friends.) A trading bloc has every incentive to reduce potential competition from other nations. They have the UK on the run. Why would they start being "nice" and not want a chunk of a disruptive state? Don't let your prejudices about Scotland blind you to the fact it's a much more naturally blessed country than poor old England and Wales.
The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
B210bandit said:
Of course the EU would take Scotland. It's completely naive to think they wouldn't (although political naivete and Britain are close friends.) A trading bloc has every incentive to reduce potential competition from other nations. They have the UK on the run. Why would they start being "nice" and not want a chunk of a disruptive state? Don't let your prejudices about Scotland blind you to the fact it's a much more naturally blessed country than poor old England and Wales.
The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
It's not prejudice nor naivete, nor anything to do with being 'nice'; the EU is not at the moment in a position where taking on yet another state that will be a net drain is an interesting proposition, and even with the most optimistic view that they themselves would be 'nice' and forego the balance sheet and Spanish question (look into the detail of the comment that has been widely interpreted as acceptance and you'll see it's far from an unequivocal position) we should ask why we are swapping a 'tyrant' within which we have influence for a similar tyrant within which we have none.The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
I agree though that Britain doesn't have smarts, or more correctly the people are easily led by 'quomodocunquizing clusterfists and rapacious varlets', but the Scottish question is just an extension of this.
Talk of guts and patriotism (the last refuge of scoundrels) is similarly emotively misleading so we should look at propositions very closeley or we too will end up in the same cacophonous state with hysterical divisions and no clear view of the future.
As in Brexit, I would advocate that instead of basing our future on 'we don't like 'them'' we should base it on 'here's a great idea for how to make the future better'. To be led by an idea of a better future should stand on it's own two feet rather than be propped up by jingoism and constructed hatred of a union that has served everyone well enough despite petty grumbles.
Edited by andy_s on Sunday 25th November 07:43
B210bandit said:
Of course the EU would take Scotland. It's completely naive to think they wouldn't (although political naivete and Britain are close friends.) A trading bloc has every incentive to reduce potential competition from other nations. They have the UK on the run. Why would they start being "nice" and not want a chunk of a disruptive state? Don't let your prejudices about Scotland blind you to the fact it's a much more naturally blessed country than poor old England and Wales.
The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
The EU may be quite happy to accept Scotland as a candidate nation on the Copenhagen criteria; the scottish population might squeak a bit at having the deficit slashed by 66% though, so it may not be a vote winner. The UK doesn't have the smarts to survive in the modern world. Privatisation, Brexit.. the government rolls over every time to foreign interests. No guts, no patriotism, just sell out.
andy_s said:
a union that has served everyone well enough despite petty grumbles.
Compared to what? There's nothing behind that statement, much like the Union. It served as a driving force for Empire but has lost its relevance as a political entity, hence the disastrous state of governance. It's a zombie state, not able to determine its own interests nor appreciate the world around it. The people of England should be bloody livid about being lead down a path paved with romantic, infantile dreams.Edited by andy_s on Sunday 25th November 07:43
B210bandit said:
andy_s said:
a union that has served everyone well enough despite petty grumbles.
Compared to what? There's nothing behind that statement, much like the Union. It served as a driving force for Empire but has lost its relevance as a political entity, hence the disastrous state of governance. It's a zombie state, not able to determine its own interests nor appreciate the world around it. The people of England should be bloody livid about being lead down a path paved with romantic, infantile dreams.Edited by andy_s on Sunday 25th November 07:43
If the SNP had come up with an idea to better that situation [which they could not as it would have eroded their base] I would have happily signed up - I'm not concerned with the mechanisms of governance but more with the practical effects. Show me a better future and I'm all for it.
The romantic infantile dreams based on naïve nationalism are also the purview of the SNP and have been for many a decade. It's the best way to manipulate people in their will to power. The disastrous state of governance in UK is a direct result of this approach, and Scotland will fare no better as it uses the same, but it will be more vulnerable. To counter that vulnerability we need to be clever and far-sighted, but that starts with humble acceptance of the negatives of independence and how to pragmatically and realistically deal with them. I have seen no evidence to date that even this first important step has been reached, and until I do I will remain to be convinced.
B210bandit said:
.... Scotland ....a much more naturally blessed country than poor old England and Wales.
Can you expand a bit on that statement? In neolithic times Orkney was a more advanced civilisation than south, partly due to a warmer climate in those days, but I don't see it being a more fruitful region in modern times. Is it oil you mean? Wind? waves? We need the extra energy just to keep lit and warm!
B210bandit said:
Fair point of the negatives. I've not seen one SNP politician have a frank discussion of those. But the trouble is the Union looks like a losing side now after being recklessly shafted over Brexit.
I think if a union breaks up, or more accurately a small chunk leaves, they’re basically gonna have to take whatever deal suits the remainder.Surely surely surely supporters of independence are having an acorn of doubt planted in their mind by the shambles of Brexit. Seeing how disastrous it is to negotiate the disentwinement of a decades old international agreement MUST cause some second thoughts about a centuries old agreement with many magnitudes more integration.
NoddyonNitrous said:
B210bandit said:
.... Scotland ....a much more naturally blessed country than poor old England and Wales.
Can you expand a bit on that statement? In neolithic times Orkney was a more advanced civilisation than south, partly due to a warmer climate in those days, but I don't see it being a more fruitful region in modern times. Is it oil you mean? Wind? waves? We need the extra energy just to keep lit and warm!
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