Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 8

[Edinburger]

Cantaloupe said:

Help ma boab, the Scottish government actually doing the day job.

Oh, they've only banned heading the ball for schoolkids playing football, the first country in the world to do so.
Still, it's a start, makes one proud eh ?

The Scottish Football Association are proposing a ban on heading the ball at training for Under 12s. That's the SFA - not the SNP.

Scotland would be the first European country to do so - not the first country in the world. The USA banned under 10s from heading the ball since 2015.

Don't let the truth get in the way of your story though, eh?

[Edinburger]

Big Robbo said:

Edinburger said:

Pastor Of Muppets said:

Just another example of the blatant lies peddled by Sturgeon, A quote from her interview in the Guardian 24th Aug 2013....

And if the result is No? "Will there be another referendum round the corner? No. We can't bind our successors, but we've made very clear our belief that constitutional referenda are once-in-a-generation events."

Never ever trust a single word that comes out her mouth, she must think the majority of people in Scotland are as thick
as the ones that vote for her, well she's got another thing coming.

You can read the whole interview here... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/24/n...

Do you stand by everything you said and did seven years ago?

Are your rose tinted spectacles in need of a clean??
You can tell when the SNP are lying...their lips move!
Having gone back to the start of this thread and read every comment you come across as so blinkered to the failings of Holyrood and the SNP it's frightening the level of ignorance you have

Eh? You have read every comment I have made? Really?? In this volume or since volume 1?

Wow! I have a stalker!!

[Troubleatmill]

This video is a cracker.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/767298/Alex-Salm...

Alex Salmond making it very clear that you have to respect the result of the referendum.

I wonder if that will ever come back to haunt him.

I'm thinking of a gofundme to have that broadcast every night on Edinburgh Castle.

[Pastor Of Muppets]

Troubleatmill said:

This video is a cracker.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/767298/Alex-Salm...

Alex Salmond making it very clear that you have to respect the result of the referendum.

I wonder if that will ever come back to haunt him.

I'm thinking of a gofundme to have that broadcast every night on Edinburgh Castle.

Brilliant, and a big clap of agreement from the audience. Pity his successor doesn't share that same sense of democracy
and accept what the people of Scotland have already very clearly told her.

[Strocky]

Brave Fart said:

Well precisely. The SNP keep stating that Boris is being undemocratic by not allowing the Scots to have another referendum.
Actually, the opposite is true. What is undemocratic is failing to accept the result of the first one.

I can accept many things in a political party. What I cannot accept is if they adopt an undemocratic policy, since it undermines everything that elected politicians are supposed to be about.

Of course, some will say (Deltona S style) "there was imperfect information, so the result isn't valid." Nonsense; there's always hyperbole and wild claims flying around in any election. It's just the way it is. Anyone who thinks that Unionists tell fibs but Nationalists are totally truthful is deluded.

No sane person would claim the bolded part (all parties indulge in politik), however what do you tell former NO voters like my BIL, several friends and multiple work contacts that would now vote YES based on Brexit?

Tough st, you need to wait until your dead to have another vote?
Even though the UK Gov have been explicitly denied at the ballot box since 2015 in Scotland despite running a one line campaign "Say No to Indy Ref 2"

On the flip side you're denying former YES voters the right to vote NO who don't want anything to do with the EU

The whole dynamic of UK politics has shifted 180 degrees since Sep 2014 (Gov using Henry VIII powers, Brexit, EVEL, devolution/returning EU laws, Labour dead in the water etc)

[amusingduck]

Strocky said:

No sane person would claim the bolded part (all parties indulge in politik), however what do you tell former NO voters like my BIL, several friends and multiple work contacts that would now vote YES based on Brexit?

Congratulations, and tough st. We're not re-running referendums when you feel 'informed' because you stupid fks couldn't be arsed to understand what you were voting on in 2014.


...is what I'd tell them

[Strocky]

Troubleatmill said:

This video is a cracker.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/767298/Alex-Salm...

Alex Salmond making it very clear that you have to respect the result of the referendum.

I wonder if that will ever come back to haunt him.

I'm thinking of a gofundme to have that broadcast every night on Edinburgh Castle.

Talk about grasping, going all the way back to 1992

If EVERY politican was held to account for every utterance on constitutional matters over the past 3 decades, then the whole country would be paralysed with inaction and howls of laughter

However it's the usual lament from Unionists, that the SNP should be held to a different standard than the rest of the parties, it's quite telling

Also on a point of order, the referendum result HAS been respected, we're still part of the Union and abiding by the Smith Commission recomendations that where implemented into the Scotland Act 2016

[Blib]

I'm a self-obsessed Londoner, who crossed the border in to Scotland once on a day trip from Ainwick.

I do not have a horse in this race and frankly, I dont care either way. Leave or stay wont make much difference to me. However, as it's PH I thought I'd wade right in.

I believe Brexit HAS changed things and that Scotland should be allowed to have a referendum about separation from the Union, with an option to apply for EU membership.

However, if they go down that route, they leave the currency too, on Independence Day.

It cannot be fair that those who remain in the Union should be obliged to have another sovereign nation piggy back on the Pound.

I cannot see how those who push for Scottish Independence can possibly square that circle. Do they believe that we will allow them to continue with the pound until they are good and ready to jump to the Euro? This could take years. There is a risk that the Scottish economy could collapse during that period. Does the SNP believe that Westminster would bail them out in such a circumstance?

I should coco!

[Evercross]

Strocky said:

However it's the usual lament from Unionists, that the SNP should be held to a different standard than the rest of the parties.

In case you hadn't realised it yet folks, this is the latest SNat soundbite.

Interesting that the one about first-past-the-post leading to Scotland getting a government that it didn't vote for has been parked for a while......

Election 2019: the result in Scotland in numbers.

BBC said:

Had the election been run under a system of proportional representation, it would have seen the SNP take 27 seats, the Tories 15, Labour 11, and the Lib Dems 6.

Oh look - a potential Unionist majority!! Don't hear us crying about it though!

As is the case with everything, democratic measures are only an issue for the Nats when they don't work in the SNP' s favour.

Nicola claims an overwhelming majority in the 2019 election and all that. As I said before the GE - try fielding candidates over the entire country before moaning about the GE result and claiming a 'win'.

Edited by Evercross on Friday 17th January 11:53

[Wombat3]

amusingduck said:

Strocky said:

No sane person would claim the bolded part (all parties indulge in politik), however what do you tell former NO voters like my BIL, several friends and multiple work contacts that would now vote YES based on Brexit?

Congratulations, and tough st. We're not re-running referendums when you feel 'informed' because you stupid fks couldn't be arsed to understand what you were voting on in 2014.


...is what I'd tell them

+1, there has been no material change. Nothing new of any substance is known now that was not known in 2014 (although if anything the understanding of just how unsustainable Indi Scotland would be is perhaps much better).

On the flipside (since Strockers is so keen on those) what, I wonder is the Nat position on the idea of say the Shetlands having a vote as to whether they wanted to remain in the UK.

Or, if we are going to indulge in neverendums till the SNP gets the answer it wants, would they then continue to have them afterwards in case people changed their minds & decided they would prefer to re-join the UK say 3-5 years after Independence?

No? Thought not

[psi310398]

Blib said:

I'm a self-obsessed Londoner, who crossed the border in to Scotland once on a day trip from Ainwick.

I do not have a horse in this race and frankly, I dont care either way. Leave or stay wont make much difference to me. However, as it's PH I thought I'd wade right in.

I believe Brexit HAS changed things and that Scotland should be allowed to have a referendum about separation from the Union, with an option to apply for EU membership.

However, if they go down that route, they leave the currency too, on Independence Day.

It cannot be fair that those who remain in the Union should be obliged to have another sovereign nation piggy back on the Pound.

I cannot see how those who push for Scottish Independence can possibly square that circle. Do they believe that we will allow them to continue with the pound until they are good and ready to jump to the Euro? This could take years. There is a risk that the Scottish economy could collapse during that period. Does the SNP believe that Westminster would bail them out in such a circumstance?

I should coco!

Surely it doesn't matter if the Scots want to use the pound post-independence?

I agree that rUK should face no moral hazard (bail out) should Scotland's economy go down the pan. And what can't happen is that the Scots have any say in rUK's monetary policy, post-independence.

However, on a practical level, Scotland continuing to use the £ need not be that complicated. Think of half the world using the $ as a de facto currency because they don't trust their own. But, to use a recent example, it doesn't mean that when Argentina goes down the tubes that the Fed will bail the country out.

[Wombat3]

Blib said:

I'm a self-obsessed Londoner, who crossed the border in to Scotland once on a day trip from Ainwick.

I do not have a horse in this race and frankly, I dont care either way. Leave or stay wont make much difference to me. However, as it's PH I thought I'd wade right in.

I believe Brexit HAS changed things and that Scotland should be allowed to have a referendum about separation from the Union, with an option to apply for EU membership.

However, if they go down that route, they leave the currency too, on Independence Day.

It cannot be fair that those who remain in the Union should be obliged to have another sovereign nation piggy back on the Pound.

I cannot see how those who push for Scottish Independence can possibly square that circle. Do they believe that we will allow them to continue with the pound until they are good and ready to jump to the Euro? This could take years. There is a risk that the Scottish economy could collapse during that period. Does the SNP believe that Westminster would bail them out in such a circumstance?

I should coco!

The currency is only scratching the surface in respect of the problems & costs associated with setting up an iScotland. If you think the Nats are suggesting that they will solve all those problems and meet all those costs themselves - well, you really haven't been paying attention!

So yes, in fact you absolutely do have a horse in this race.

[psi310398]

Wombat3 said:

The currency is only scratching the surface in respect of the problems & costs associated with setting up an iScotland. If you think the Nats are suggesting that they will solve all those problems and meet all those costs themselves - well, you really haven't been paying attention!

So yes, in fact you absolutely do have a horse in this race.

There is, of course, a distinction between the Nats wanting a free lunch and actually getting it.

What bargaining power does Scotland have against rUK if rUK decides not to be helpful or accommodating?

[amusingduck]

psi310398 said:

Surely it doesn't matter if the Scots want to use the pound post-independence?

I agree that rUK should face no moral hazard (bail out) should Scotland's economy go down the pan. And what can't happen is that the Scots have any say in rUK's monetary policy, post-independence.

However, on a practical level, Scotland continuing to use the £ need not be that complicated. Think of half the world using the $ as a de facto currency because they don't trust their own. But, to use a recent example, it doesn't mean that when Argentina goes down the tubes that the Fed will bail the country out.

It matters massively for iScotland.

article said:

Scotland would be fighting a constant battle to prevent its banking system running short of sterling.

It’s important to clarify what this means. It does not mean that Scottish banks, or Scottish households and businesses, are losing money in a profit & loss sense.

A banking system depends on reserves to function. Reserves are a bank’s most liquid assets – notes and coins count, but so do special accounts held with the central bank – and they are essential to ensure the smooth running of the payments system. If a bank does not have sufficient reserves, it cannot function. Customers cannot withdraw money, or make payments.

Scotland’s banking system would be running short of sterling reserves.

https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i330/choose_your_poison_the_snps_currency_headache.aspx

[Mrr T]

psi310398 said:

Surely it doesn't matter if the Scots want to use the pound post-independence?

I agree that rUK should face no moral hazard (bail out) should Scotland's economy go down the pan. And what can't happen is that the Scots have any say in rUK's monetary policy, post-independence.

However, on a practical level, Scotland continuing to use the £ need not be that complicated. Think of half the world using the $ as a de facto currency because they don't trust their own. But, to use a recent example, it doesn't mean that when Argentina goes down the tubes that the Fed will bail the country out.

Sorry but on a practical level Scotland cannot use sterling. The Scottish government needs to collect taxes, pay for services, raise and redeem bonds. To do that it needs access to a bank account. If the UK allowed the the Scottish government to have an account at the BOE the UK would be exposed and no commercial bank would have the risk appitite. The US Dollar maybe widely accepted for payments but governments need their own currency and central bank.

[psi310398]

amusingduck said:

psi310398 said:

Surely it doesn't matter if the Scots want to use the pound post-independence?

I agree that rUK should face no moral hazard (bail out) should Scotland's economy go down the pan. And what can't happen is that the Scots have any say in rUK's monetary policy, post-independence.

However, on a practical level, Scotland continuing to use the £ need not be that complicated. Think of half the world using the $ as a de facto currency because they don't trust their own. But, to use a recent example, it doesn't mean that when Argentina goes down the tubes that the Fed will bail the country out.

It matters massively for iScotland.

Sorry, I was answering Blib's point - so from an rUK perspective, on the presumption that the Scots had considered all the downsides and decided to move on regardless.

[psi310398]

Mrr T said:

Sorry but on a practical level Scotland cannot use sterling. The Scottish government needs to collect taxes, pay for services, raise and redeem bonds. To do that it needs access to a bank account. If the UK allowed the the Scottish government to have an account at the BOE the UK would be exposed and no commercial bank would have the risk appitite. The US Dollar maybe widely accepted for payments but governments need their own currency and central bank.

Actually, there are countries without central banks.

Admittedly not many and almost all with economies the size Scotland's is likely to be shortly after independence.

[Wombat3]

psi310398 said:

Wombat3 said:

The currency is only scratching the surface in respect of the problems & costs associated with setting up an iScotland. If you think the Nats are suggesting that they will solve all those problems and meet all those costs themselves - well, you really haven't been paying attention!

So yes, in fact you absolutely do have a horse in this race.

There is, of course, a distinction between the Nats wanting a free lunch and actually getting it.

What bargaining power does Scotland have against rUK if rUK decides not to be helpful or accommodating?

Indeed , very little (apart from things like Faslane etc).

But its another good reason why the Nats need to be told that there is no question of having Indyref 2 without them first submitting a credible & costed plan as to how they are going to set up and run an Independent country. And that applies as much down track for the next generation as it does now. Why on earth should anyone waste any time , money or effort on this to appease the hysterical 2-3% without it?

Of course if they had a braincell between them they would have worked out that if they could actually do that then they would undoubtedly be able to gather support for it and make it happen. The fact is that the majority simply don't think its possible because they have seen nothing to suggest it is and plenty to suggest it isn't!

Its up to the Nats to convince everyone otherwise and put forward credible solutions and not just pie in the sky lies and bullst (of which they are the arch peddlers). Until they do then frankly STFU, FRO and stop wasting everyone's time!

[Troubleatmill]

Wombat3 said:

Indeed , very little (apart from things like Faslane etc).

But its another good reason why the Nats need to be told that there is no question of having Indyref 2 without them first submitting a credible & costed plan as to how they are going to set up and run an Independent country. And that applies as much down track for the next generation as it does now. Why on earth should anyone waste any time , money or effort on this to appease the hysterical 2-3% without it?

Of course if they had a braincell between them they would have worked out that if they could actually do that then they would undoubtedly be able to gather support for it and make it happen. The fact is that the majority simply don't think its possible because they have seen nothing to suggest it is and plenty to suggest it isn't!

Its up to the Nats to convince everyone otherwise and put forward credible solutions and not just pie in the sky lies and bullst (of which they are the arch peddlers). Until they do then frankly STFU, FRO and stop wasting everyone's time!

Alex Salmond's former advisor is on record that they chose not to show the true numbers as it would show an independent Scotland as non viable.

[psi310398]

Wombat3 said:

Indeed , very little (apart from things like Faslane etc).

But its another good reason why the Nats need to be told that there is no question of having Indyref 2 without them first submitting a credible & costed plan as to how they are going to set up and run an Independent country. And that applies as much down track for the next generation as it does now. Why on earth should anyone waste any time , money or effort on this to appease the hysterical 2-3% without it?

Of course if they had a braincell between them they would have worked out that if they could actually do that then they would undoubtedly be able to gather support for it and make it happen. The fact is that the majority simply don't think its possible because they have seen nothing to suggest it is and plenty to suggest it isn't!

Its up to the Nats to convince everyone otherwise and put forward credible solutions and not just pie in the sky lies and bullst (of which they are the arch peddlers). Until they do then frankly STFU, FRO and stop wasting everyone's time!

I wouldn't disagree with most of that, but I think we're getting to the point where plenty of English just don't accept that any of this is their problem any more, nor that they should bankroll this self-indulgence.

It's for the Scots to sort this out politically - that's what devolution entails.