The Gender Non-binary debate.

[esxste]

bulldong said:

Thanks for displaying your inability to contribute properly. Still waiting for an answer.

I don't remember identifying as Google... however, if it will please you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=is+gender+dysmorphia+classifi...


Question answered.


Now would you care to answer my question?

[anonymous-user]

esxste said:

bulldong said:

Thanks for displaying your inability to contribute properly. Still waiting for an answer.

I don't remember identifying as Google... however, if it will please you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=is+gender+dysmorphia+classifi...


Question answered.


Now would you care to answer my question?

Neither a doctor or a researcher, hence my question, and based on the dictionary definitions of what a condition or illness is.

The problem is that, well, the treatment is medical though isn't it (hormones and surgery), and there are psychological issues (or at least higher rates of mental illness) associated with it. It isn't clear to me whether these come from being repressed, or whether these issues cause a trans inclination. So does the declassification mean that it is automatically treated as a sexual health condition and the mental state of the patient is, by default, ignored?

Help me understand it, rather than berating and patronising me.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

bulldong said:

Neither a doctor or a researcher, hence my question, and based on the dictionary definitions of what a condition or illness is.

The problem is that, well, the treatment is medical though isn't it (hormones and surgery), and there are psychological issues (or at least higher rates of mental illness) associated with it. It isn't clear to me whether these come from being repressed, or whether these issues cause a trans inclination. So does the declassification mean that it is automatically treated as a sexual health condition and the mental state of the patient is, by default, ignored?

Help me understand it, rather than berating and patronising me.

People can't be put into nice compartments and labelled. That's true for absolutely everyone.

For example, I'm transgender but I am lucky to not have body dysphoria. I can look in the mirror and think "yeah, I'm in the wrong body, but it is what it is". I'm comfortable with who I am.
However, I know trans people who were so crippled by body dysphoria, and so deeply unhappy, that they contemplated suicide.

Now, given these two bits of information, you clearly can't therefore say that all trans people are basket cases who are suicidal, not least because I'm not.

So, really, trans people are just humans like any other human. Some have issues, some don't. Some need to sort their issues out, whether it be with a councillor, a psychiatrist, a doctor, or a surgeon. But not because they are trans, but because they have issues. Just like any other human might.

Given this, I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that gender dysphoria is a mental condition that needs treated. Just like I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that homosexuality is a mental condition that needs treated.

People have a sexual orientation, and people have a gender orientation. It's just part of who they are.

[xjay1337]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

However, I know trans people who were so crippled by body dysphoria, and so deeply unhappy, that they contemplated suicide.

I don't think any mentally sane person would contemplate suicide.

And I say that as someone who has tried in the past.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

xjay1337 said:

I don't think any mentally sane person would contemplate suicide.

And I say that as someone who has tried in the past.

Firstly, I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you are a lot happier now.

But, assuming you're not transgender, then we therefore can't establish an automatic link between being transgender and being suicidal, as some people seem to be doing. All you can deduce is that people with suicidal thoughts are more likely to commit suicide than those without.

Of course suicidal thoughts aren't healthy and should be addressed. I can't imagine that anyone would disagree with that statement. But that really has nothing to do with being trans per se.

[xjay1337]

Still as miserable as ever!!! :-)

I think what the other posters may be trying to get at is that being transgender puts you at a higher risk of having depression, anxiety, etc etc, and these are all linked to mental illnesses .

Doesn't mean we aren't supportive of people's life choices, and doesn't mean that we need to fix them either.

[8.4L 154]

Just don't mix up correlation with causation.

There are many reasons a trans person might be suicidal or suffer mental illness. Not one of them is required or expected as a result of being trans.

The vast majority relate to social stigma.

[gregs656]

bulldong said:

The problem is that, well, the treatment is medical though isn't it (hormones and surgery), and there are psychological issues (or at least higher rates of mental illness) associated with it. It isn't clear to me whether these come from being repressed, or whether these issues cause a trans inclination. So does the declassification mean that it is automatically treated as a sexual health condition and the mental state of the patient is, by default, ignored?

You should listen to some stories from trans people - there is a trans woman called Paula Stone who did a short (15m) Ted Talk - maybe a good place to start.

I don't think it is particularly brilliant to keep referencing sexual identity - but the cross over in the stories is quite similar - usually known from a young age, repress for what ever reason (external or internal), find your self unhappy, accept your self, be happier (what ever that looks like).

I think it is very easy to judge trans people on their mental health because they are often willing to talk about it openly on youtube and in interviews etc, and various charities collect information on the LGBT community in order to help show that the community is still not where we would like it to be. But mental health issues affect tons of people who are not so open about it, who are not part of a group that is surveyed about it regularly etc.

[Androgynous]

xjay1337 said:

Androgynous said:

https://twitter.com/jeancross3/status/105267767366...

They wanted it - they got it.

There are only losers there, it makes a mockery of women only events when you allow men (sex) to compete.

[anonymous-user]

Androgynous said:

xjay1337 said:

Androgynous said:

https://twitter.com/jeancross3/status/105267767366...

They wanted it - they got it.

There are only losers there, it makes a mockery of women only events when you allow men (sex) to compete.

Genuine question, and ignoring the ridiculous strength and physique advantage. If a transgender woman athlete forgets to take her oestrogen, isn’t she technically doping?

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 5th December 20:03

[Cbull]

Just because they lie to themselves shouldn't mean everyone else has to lie.

That fighter should go to jail for beating a woman. What woman would even sign up for that. There shouldn't be any compromise, they need their own competitions, toilets, schools etc etc.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So, really, trans people are just humans like any other human. Some have issues, some don't. Some need to sort their issues out, whether it be with a councillor, a psychiatrist, a doctor, or a surgeon. But not because they are trans, but because they have issues. Just like any other human might.

Given this, I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that gender dysphoria is a mental condition that needs treated. Just like I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that homosexuality is a mental condition that needs treated.

I think this is where the whole argument falls on it’s arse for me, because the trans rights movement just wants to win an unwinnable argument on it's own terms.

If trans doesn’t need treated, why are men and women who call themselves trans requesting surgery to mutilate their bodies?

Or is it that treatment is ok as long as it fits with whatever people want?

This is the rediculous situation we’ve gotten ourselves into.

Everyone must have a voice, their rights and to hell with everyone else. It’s a utopian belief that can’t work and this thread has two glaring examples of why it can’t.

Trans being allowed access to toilets/changing rooms for their opposite sex.

Trans gaining access to sporting events against their opppsite sex.

In this utopian never-never land that would all be wonderful accept that there are micro sub devisions that make it unworkable;

The man who likes to think he’s a woman beating the st out of a female competitor at boxing.

The man who likes to think he’s a woman but is sexually attracted to women still being allowed access unfettered to women’s and girls changing rooms and toilets.

And this is only two-there are a million other imaginary scenarios.

So we are left with the choice (apparently) that the whole world lives in a land of make believe for the tiny percentage of humanity that thinks the world should change for them.

Perhaps it’s symptomatic of the condition? A complexity so grounded in everything being wrong from birth that the whole world needs to change to accommodate me? My appearance, my genitalia, my hair my nails and now you! Your world, your competitions, your spaces, your rules, everything must change for me and the micro-population that thinks like me.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Trans being allowed access to toilets/changing rooms for their opposite sex.

LaurasOtherHalf said:

The man who likes to think he’s a woman but is sexually attracted to women still being allowed access unfettered to women’s and girls changing rooms and toilets.

Tell me, if you were allowed unfettered access to women’s and girls changing rooms and toilets, what would you personally do? Would you go on a rape and assault spree like you are implicitly suggesting trans women would? Would you, and all your male friends, and your dad, would all of you have a nice little rape orgy? No? Well, why do you think a trans woman would then? It's a dirty, stty insinuation that paints all trans women as rapists and paedophiles.

Furthermore, lesbians and gays already have unfettered access to the changing rooms and toilets of the people they are attracted to.

So, really, this is complete bullst.

LaurasOtherHalf said:

And this is only two-there are a million other imaginary scenarios.

Well you got that right. They are imaginary. As in fantasy. As in made-up bullst.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Thursday 6th December 09:19

[Atomic12C]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

So, really, this is complete bullst.

Its not though is it.
Its a reasonable consideration and concern.
When for example you see on youtube or even on some TV shows (in america mostly), that some trans-people very readily turn back in to their male form when it comes to conflict and aggression.

Separation of male and female for the use of toilets and changing rooms has very valid and long standing reasons.
Claiming to identify as the other should not be a civil liberty that can trump those reasons.

[esxste]

Atomic12C]lockwork Cupcake said:

So, really, this is complete bullst.
[\quote=Clockwork Cupcake]

Its not though is it.
Its a reasonable consideration and concern.
When for example you see on youtube or even on some TV shows (in america mostly), that some trans-people very readily turn back in to their male form when it comes to conflict and aggression.

Separation of male and female for the use of toilets and changing rooms has very valid and long standing reasons.
Claiming to identify as the other should not be a civil liberty that can trump those reasons.

Got examples, becuase I kind of suspect that you've watched an episode of RuPauls Drag race and you think that drag queens are trans...


Still waiting for an answer on what gender you think someone with XXY chromosomes would be.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Atomic12C said:

Its not though is it.

Is is though, isn't it.

Atomic12C said:

Its a reasonable consideration and concern.

Oh, it's all dressed up in reasonableness isn't it. Of course it is. Because bigotry is always dressed up in reasonable clothes. "I'm not racist, but..." is always so much more reasonable than outright racism, for example.

Atomic12C said:

Separation of male and female for the use of toilets and changing rooms has very valid and long standing reasons.
Claiming to identify as the other should not be a civil liberty that can trump those reasons.

Once more, for those who still don't get it, we are not talking about allowing trans women into female toilets, we are talking about banning them. I already go into female toilets. And guess what? I have never assaulted anyone. I just take a st or/and a piss, then wash my hands, maybe adjust my hair and makeup, and then leave. Just like every other woman does.

[xjay1337]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

I think this is where the whole argument falls on it’s arse for me, because the trans rights movement just wants to win an unwinnable argument on it's own terms.

If trans doesn’t need treated, why are men and women who call themselves trans requesting surgery to mutilate their bodies?

Or is it that treatment is ok as long as it fits with whatever people want?

This is the rediculous situation we’ve gotten ourselves into.

Everyone must have a voice, their rights and to hell with everyone else. It’s a utopian belief that can’t work and this thread has two glaring examples of why it can’t.

Trans being allowed access to toilets/changing rooms for their opposite sex.

Trans gaining access to sporting events against their opppsite sex.

In this utopian never-never land that would all be wonderful accept that there are micro sub devisions that make it unworkable;

The man who likes to think he’s a woman beating the st out of a female competitor at boxing.

The man who likes to think he’s a woman but is sexually attracted to women still being allowed access unfettered to women’s and girls changing rooms and toilets.

And this is only two-there are a million other imaginary scenarios.

So we are left with the choice (apparently) that the whole world lives in a land of make believe for the tiny percentage of humanity that thinks the world should change for them.

Perhaps it’s symptomatic of the condition? A complexity so grounded in everything being wrong from birth that the whole world needs to change to accommodate me? My appearance, my genitalia, my hair my nails and now you! Your world, your competitions, your spaces, your rules, everything must change for me and the micro-population that thinks like me.

Very well put. 100% agree.

[AshVX220]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

People can't be put into nice compartments and labelled. That's true for absolutely everyone.

For example, I'm transgender but I am lucky to not have body dysphoria. I can look in the mirror and think "yeah, I'm in the wrong body, but it is what it is". I'm comfortable with who I am.
However, I know trans people who were so crippled by body dysphoria, and so deeply unhappy, that they contemplated suicide.

Now, given these two bits of information, you clearly can't therefore say that all trans people are basket cases who are suicidal, not least because I'm not.

So, really, trans people are just humans like any other human. Some have issues, some don't. Some need to sort their issues out, whether it be with a councillor, a psychiatrist, a doctor, or a surgeon. But not because they are trans, but because they have issues. Just like any other human might.

Given this, I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that gender dysphoria is a mental condition that needs treated. Just like I fundamentally disagree with the suggestion that homosexuality is a mental condition that needs treated.

People have a sexual orientation, and people have a gender orientation. It's just part of who they are.

CC, your contributions to this thread are enlightening to say the least and I think the thread is far better with your presence in it.

I would like to ask a personal question though based on your post above if I may. I've only emboldened the bits above as this is what caused me to think of the question, not to single it out or try and manipulate what you've said.

So, I take it from the above post that you haven't had surgery, do you plan to have surgery? If not, are you not actually a Transvestite, rather than Transgender? Or are they the same thing? If not the same thing, what is the difference in your opinion?

[Atomic12C]

esxste said:

Still waiting for an answer on what gender you think someone with XXY chromosomes would be.

What does the science say?
XXY disease which often places individuals in a trans-sex status.
There is therefore reasonable logic in those rare cases that the individual would 'feel' somewhere between like a man or like a woman depending on their physical 'deformities'.
From that, it would also be reasonable that such an individual would choose which gener to associate with based on what they feel most 'closest' to under the typical behaviours of men and women in society.

This is very much different to 'normal' people with no medical condition(1) deciding to identify as the opposite sex or as the opposite gender, or whatever else they wish to identify as.
The concept of gender fluidity is nothing more than a statement to say that the concept of gender does not exist. If a person can be one, either or both, depending on how they feel when they wake up in the morning, then they are basically stating that concept of gender is something that society should drop. Which then makes a mockery of wanting to identify as one or the other in the first place.

At the same time I fully respect people's ability to believe in whatever they wish to believe in, and this is a right I would happily fight with them on,....but the issue of gender fluidity is a minority belief concept that should not be forced on to others if they do not wish to view society in that way.

Many still view the original use of the word 'gender' to mean a 'sorting', which basically means the sorting of the two sexes, male or female. I presume the majority of society still wish this terminology to be a simple binary sorting - no matter how loud groups pushing for change will shout.
For many people I guess they are comfortable with what they know and are familiar with - this is not something that should be shouted down, but something that people should accept....just as much in the same manner that people are free to believe in what they choose to believe.

But there should always be a boundary that means believers should not be in an authoritative position to force their beliefs on to others.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

AshVX220 said:

CC, your contributions to this thread are enlightening to say the least and I think the thread is far better with your presence in it.

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say.

AshVX220 said:

So, I take it from the above post that you haven't had surgery, do you plan to have surgery? If not, are you not actually a Transvestite, rather than Transgender? Or are they the same thing? If not the same thing, what is the difference in your opinion?

No, I don't plan to have surgery. I don't think I would be any happier, or any less happy, than I am now. I don't think that paying vast sums of money (and experiencing post-operative pain and complications) to mutilate myself would make me any more of a woman than I already am. Not do I think that I am any less of a woman as I am now. All it would be would be an attempt to get greater acceptance in a world that already doesn't accept me and whose lack of acceptance wouldn't diminish post-op either. So what's the point? That's just me speaking personally though, for many trans women it is absolutely essential to them. People are different.
For me it is just a birth defect that I choose to live with, rather than getting corrected.

There is a big difference between a transvestite and transgender. Transvestitism, if you know your Latin, is to do with clothes (from where we get the old-fashioned word "vestements" and where "vest" comes from). It is someone, usually a man, who wears clothes of the opposite gender, often for sexual kicks, and who does not consider themselves to be of the opposite gender, or identify with it, or wish to be it. They are just wearing the clothes for whatever reason. So, basically, dressing up / wearing fancy dress.

A transgender person is someone who identifies as the opposite gender, regardless of the clothes they are wearing. If they wear clothes that more closely match their gender identity then they are doing so because it is consistent with their gender identity. Not because they are dressing up.

A transsexual person is someone who wishes to transition to the opposite gender.

Personally, I think gender is a spectrum rather than a binary. Just like sexuality is a spectrum rather than a binary. People seem to be able to grasp the concept of bisexual, but not gender-fluid / two spirit* / androgynous

(* - "two spirit" is a concept of the Native Americans. For a people considered as 'savages' by the conquering white men, they were actually very enlightened)