The Gender Non-binary debate.

Author
Discussion

gregs656

2,246 posts

119 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Not having the language to describe something isn’t the same as not experiencing it.

j_4m

564 posts

2 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Nope, absolutely not. And I can speak from experience on this.

I have always known I was different. I was raised in pretty much that "complete isolation" in that respect as it was pre-WWW and the information wasn't there and my parents weren't exactly progressive. I literally did not know that trans was a thing. All I knew is that I should have been born a girl, and that I much preferred "girl things" to "boy things" and envied my sister. I remember distinctly in the 1980's my sister trying on a Ra-Ra skirt and me blurting out "why do girls get all the best fashion?" (hey, it was the 1980's), and the shop assistant jokingly saying "Would you like a Ra-Ra skirt too then?" and me hotly denying it (but in my head saying "Oh gods yes, so much").
Genuine question here, not trying to be a dick.

Do you remember any particular experience that told you "I am not meant to be a male" that wasn't defined by a socialised gender norm? Hard question to frame and it might prove impossible to answer given how we normally define masculinity and femininity with external indicators like skirts/trousers, long-hair/short-hair, etc. I guess for me as a cisgendered male the best example I can think of is an almost visceral sense of competitiveness; for example when I'm sparring with training partners there is a real primal need to win that verges on bloodlust. A lot of my male friends experience the same thing in competitive scenarios, my female friends have no idea what I'm talking about.

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
j_4m said:
Genuine question here, not trying to be a dick.

Do you remember any particular experience that told you "I am not meant to be a male" that wasn't defined by a socialised gender norm? Hard question to frame and it might prove impossible to answer given how we normally define masculinity and femininity with external indicators like skirts/trousers, long-hair/short-hair, etc. I guess for me as a cisgendered male the best example I can think of is an almost visceral sense of competitiveness; for example when I'm sparring with training partners there is a real primal need to win that verges on bloodlust. A lot of my male friends experience the same thing in competitive scenarios, my female friends have no idea what I'm talking about.
Well, rather ironically, my sister was always the outdoorsy "tomboy" type. My mother would always remark that if she sent the two of us out of the house, my sister would be covered in mud within 2 minutes and I'd come home at the end of the day pristine. That's not meant to be in any way "proof" of anything, just an anecdote.

But I certainly grew up being teased and taunted for being a "sissy" and a "wimp" and told to "man up" and "grow a pair". And I've certainly always felt I had little or nothing in common with men, and an awful lot with women.

At the end of the day, I am "me". And that just happens to fit in better with what society deems to be a woman than what it deems to be a man.

And male fashion sucks, btw. Women really do get all the best fashion. smile

(I also own a Ra-Ra skirt now. Better late than never. hehe )



Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Sunday 10th February 20:39

j_4m

564 posts

2 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, rather ironically, my sister was always the outdoorsy "tomboy" type. My mother would always remark that if she sent the two of us out of the house, my sister would be covered in mud within 2 minutes and I'd come hope at the end of the day pristine. That's not meant to be in any way "proof" of anything, just an anecdote.

But I certainly grew up being teased and taunted for being a "sissy" and a "wimp" and told to "man up" and "grow a pair". And I've certainly always felt I had little or nothing in common with men, and an awful lot with women.

At the end of the day, I am "me". And that just happens to fit in better with what society deems to be a woman than what it deems to be a man.

And male fashion sucks, btw. Women really do get all the best fashion. smile

(I also own a Ra-Ra skirt now. Better late than never. hehe )
Thanks, good answer!

Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not.

That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.

Advertisement

xjay1337

11,375 posts

56 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not.

That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.
No-one is saying that <people> can't be who or what they like.
Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".

smile

WorldBoss

2,593 posts

127 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Nope.

The concept of what actually being trans is was introduced to me pretty late in life, and even to this day the concept still isn't totally 'normalized' in my mind. My family aren't exactly advocates of the LGBT community and in no way ever suggested being trans was acceptable, either as a child or even now as an adult.

Despite that, I remember aged about 4-5 that I felt somewhat was uncomfortable being a boy, and very clearly remembering at 7 that I had made the decision that I wanted to be a girl, badly. Nothing external influenced these thoughts other than my natural development, they came out precisely nowhere and they stuck with me and grew over many years and never once went away, but with no explanation or words to describe how or what I felt, I fell deeper and deeper into a hole of repression, depression and dysphoria that I have little doubt would have killed me within a few years.

I'm grateful that my realization happened when it did, but knowledge of the true existence of transgenderism when I was younger would have saved me (and many other trans people) SO much damage. Way more damage caused than the very rare occasions of a child getting slightly confused and delaying their puberty slightly, IMHO.

witko999 said:
Your comments on people going through the 'wrong' puberty just sound ridiculous to me. This 'wrong' puberty is a natural event in the body and the alternative (right?) puberty involves hormone therapy and whatnot.
People are their minds, not their genitals or endocrine systems . Let me assure you, if your mind is towards the female end of the spectrum, going through a male puberty, subsequent masculinization and running primarily on testosterone is incredibility distressing.

If we are going to obsess about natural events in the body we might as well pack up all medical research and treatment and go back to praying things away. Cancer is a 'natural event' in the body FFS, nobody advocates sitting back and letting nature take its course on that one.

We medically treat people so they can live fuller, healthier, more productive lives than perhaps what their bodies would do without intervention. Trans health care is no different.

Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:02


Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:03

Fermit and Sexy Sarah

5,219 posts

38 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
CC, just a random question. Have all your friends and family accepted your 'transition' (for want of a better term, if that sounds clumsy) and who you now identify as, and has anyone surprised you by not doing so? Hope I'm not being too personal, I'm just genuinely curious.

rover 623gsi

3,103 posts

99 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
j_4m said:
Bolded is what I think is most important, people may disagree with definitions and with philosophy, but even if you think someone is wrong you have to accept that they have a basic right to be whoever they feel they are.
Well, you'd think that people would have to accept that. But, sadly, many do not.

That's part of the debate I think. And something that I feel shouldn't be a matter of debate.
No-one is saying that <people> can't be who or what they like.
Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".

smile
the problem with accepting that people have a right to be whoever they feel they are, is that you create a situation where feelings are more important than facts. Biology matters and it is impossible for a male to become a female (or vice versa). A man who wishes to live as a woman can choose to do so, but he can never be or become a woman, he can only live 'as a woman' and there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.

gregs656

2,246 posts

119 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
rover 623gsi said:
the problem with accepting that people have a right to be whoever they feel they are, is that you create a situation where feelings are more important than facts. Biology matters and it is impossible for a male to become a female (or vice versa). A man who wishes to live as a woman can choose to do so, but he can never be or become a woman, he can only live 'as a woman' and there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.
If you’re interested biology and facts it is sensible to keep up to date with our developing understanding.

descentia

71 posts

73 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
rover 623gsi said:
there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.
I'd be interested to know which behaviours and situations you refer to ?

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Sunday 10th February
quotequote all
descentia said:
I'd be interested to know which behaviours and situations you refer to ?
Trust me, you wouldn't.

George Smiley

727 posts

19 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
George Smiley said:
So you think arrest and detention is an appropriate response?
To a hate aggravated harassment case where the harasser refused to answer questions and assist police with their enquiries, Yeah I think so.

PS harassment is a crime and being transgender is a protected characteristic for it being qualified as a hate crime if motivated as such.
But I simply do not believe referring to someone as a man, unless they have legally had their gender reassigned and they are not self-assessing themselves to be a woman, should result in such a reaction when you see actual physical assault cases or where partners (male and female) undergo years of mental abuse go with a lighter touch.

I feel the woman that raised the complaint is somewhat overreacting and I feel we are in a state of law/politics which is pandering way too much to the power of social media.

I fully understand there is the very genuine possibility that someone is born in the wrong body for their mind (the brain being what ultimately tells us our gender) but at the same time we have to recognise that the only reason people can change their gender is through medical procedures which means the transgender process is not natural and therefore means people are entitled to an opinion to the contrary to the media agenda.

If a TG still has a penis but identifies as a woman, would they be legally entitled to use the female changing rooms? At airport security should a female security officer be told they have to pat down and potentially feel the female TG's penis? What about if the roles are reversed?

Did the proposed amendment to the law get passed so that TG's can now legally identify their sex without a medical assessment?


George Smiley

727 posts

19 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
j_4m said:
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.

I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
Well said.

I wonder what side of the fence those arguing for children to undergo life changing surgery sit when it comes to assisted suicide?

j_4m

564 posts

2 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
rover 623gsi said:
the problem with accepting that people have a right to be whoever they feel they are, is that you create a situation where feelings are more important than facts. Biology matters and it is impossible for a male to become a female (or vice versa). A man who wishes to live as a woman can choose to do so, but he can never be or become a woman, he can only live 'as a woman' and there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.
Unfortunately it's not practical to make a rulebook that covers every possible interaction. I've already said earlier I don't really believe a transgender man or woman is the same as a cisgender man or woman, but I'm not going to be a prick and deliberately misgender them; if someone asks me to use one pronoun over another or call them Stephanie instead of Steve it's no skin off my nose to agree and it makes their life just that little bit easier. Toilets? Having spent a lot of time in France I'm not particularly fussed about unisex toilets. For the vast majority of day-to-day interactions there really isn't any need to segregate or define based on sex and being deliberately combative about these issues doesn't get anywhere, a bit of mutual respect goes a long way.

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
j_4m said:
Unfortunately it's not practical to make a rulebook that covers every possible interaction. I've already said earlier I don't really believe a transgender man or woman is the same as a cisgender man or woman, but I'm not going to be a prick and deliberately misgender them; if someone asks me to use one pronoun over another or call them Stephanie instead of Steve it's no skin off my nose to agree and it makes their life just that little bit easier. Toilets? Having spent a lot of time in France I'm not particularly fussed about unisex toilets. For the vast majority of day-to-day interactions there really isn't any need to segregate or define based on sex and being deliberately combative about these issues doesn't get anywhere, a bit of mutual respect goes a long way.
thumbup

Speaking personally, that's really all I want from people. Live and let live.

descentia

71 posts

73 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
j_4m said:
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.

I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
Well said.

I wonder what side of the fence those arguing for children to undergo life changing surgery sit when it comes to assisted suicide?
This has already been answered so many times. there is no surgery or hormone treatment offered or done to children. HRT can start at 16 and the earliest age for surgery is 18. The safeguards in the system are many and at each stage of treatment is supervised by medically trained professionals. There is no instant access to any treatment whether it involves medication or not as the waiting times are lengthy and the administration slow.
The idea that children, or anyone else for that matter, can suddenly find themselves moving from one side to the other with hormone treatment and surgery in a very quick timescale is completely untrue.

George Smiley

727 posts

19 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
descentia said:
George Smiley said:
j_4m said:
Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.

I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.
Well said.

I wonder what side of the fence those arguing for children to undergo life changing surgery sit when it comes to assisted suicide?
This has already been answered so many times. there is no surgery or hormone treatment offered or done to children. HRT can start at 16 and the earliest age for surgery is 18. The safeguards in the system are many and at each stage of treatment is supervised by medically trained professionals. There is no instant access to any treatment whether it involves medication or not as the waiting times are lengthy and the administration slow.
The idea that children, or anyone else for that matter, can suddenly find themselves moving from one side to the other with hormone treatment and surgery in a very quick timescale is completely untrue.
two confused kids, my own daughter at a similar age gets confused as to whether she likes my little pony or boss baby not whether she should have a cock to piss through

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-britains...


And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)
Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

gregs656

2,246 posts

119 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)
You are showing your ignorance of the law here.

There is no currently no requirement to have surgery (though this must be explained for a GRC).

Currently you also have the protected characteristic if

'A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment
if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has
undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of
reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other
attributes of sex.'

So what you describe could already happen. Do you find it a big problem in your day to day life? I suspect not.