The Gender Non-binary debate.

[George Smiley]

8.4L 154 said:

George Smiley said:

So you think arrest and detention is an appropriate response?

To a hate aggravated harassment case where the harasser refused to answer questions and assist police with their enquiries, Yeah I think so.

PS harassment is a crime and being transgender is a protected characteristic for it being qualified as a hate crime if motivated as such.

But I simply do not believe referring to someone as a man, unless they have legally had their gender reassigned and they are not self-assessing themselves to be a woman, should result in such a reaction when you see actual physical assault cases or where partners (male and female) undergo years of mental abuse go with a lighter touch.

I feel the woman that raised the complaint is somewhat overreacting and I feel we are in a state of law/politics which is pandering way too much to the power of social media.

I fully understand there is the very genuine possibility that someone is born in the wrong body for their mind (the brain being what ultimately tells us our gender) but at the same time we have to recognise that the only reason people can change their gender is through medical procedures which means the transgender process is not natural and therefore means people are entitled to an opinion to the contrary to the media agenda.

If a TG still has a penis but identifies as a woman, would they be legally entitled to use the female changing rooms? At airport security should a female security officer be told they have to pat down and potentially feel the female TG's penis? What about if the roles are reversed?

Did the proposed amendment to the law get passed so that TG's can now legally identify their sex without a medical assessment?

[George Smiley]

j_4m said:

Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.

I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.

Well said.

I wonder what side of the fence those arguing for children to undergo life changing surgery sit when it comes to assisted suicide?

[j_4m]

rover 623gsi said:

the problem with accepting that people have a right to be whoever they feel they are, is that you create a situation where feelings are more important than facts. Biology matters and it is impossible for a male to become a female (or vice versa). A man who wishes to live as a woman can choose to do so, but he can never be or become a woman, he can only live 'as a woman' and there will always be behaviours and situations where that person's sex is more important than their preferred gender.

Unfortunately it's not practical to make a rulebook that covers every possible interaction. I've already said earlier I don't really believe a transgender man or woman is the same as a cisgender man or woman, but I'm not going to be a prick and deliberately misgender them; if someone asks me to use one pronoun over another or call them Stephanie instead of Steve it's no skin off my nose to agree and it makes their life just that little bit easier. Toilets? Having spent a lot of time in France I'm not particularly fussed about unisex toilets. For the vast majority of day-to-day interactions there really isn't any need to segregate or define based on sex and being deliberately combative about these issues doesn't get anywhere, a bit of mutual respect goes a long way.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

j_4m said:

Unfortunately it's not practical to make a rulebook that covers every possible interaction. I've already said earlier I don't really believe a transgender man or woman is the same as a cisgender man or woman, but I'm not going to be a prick and deliberately misgender them; if someone asks me to use one pronoun over another or call them Stephanie instead of Steve it's no skin off my nose to agree and it makes their life just that little bit easier. Toilets? Having spent a lot of time in France I'm not particularly fussed about unisex toilets. For the vast majority of day-to-day interactions there really isn't any need to segregate or define based on sex and being deliberately combative about these issues doesn't get anywhere, a bit of mutual respect goes a long way.

Speaking personally, that's really all I want from people. Live and let live.

[descentia]

'

Edited by descentia on Sunday 31st March 21:21

[George Smiley]

descentia said:

George Smiley said:

j_4m said:

Life changing elective surgeries or treatments shouldn’t be administered to minors, they have to be able to make their own informed decision and by the fact that we class them minors we recognise that they can’t do that. It’s unfortunate that this delays treatment for those that would benefit from it, but necessary to protect those who can be damaged by it.

I don’t think we shouldn’t educate children about the existence of transgenderism or homosexuality or sex in general, but offering hormone treatments or SRS to minors seems irresponsible to me.

Well said.

I wonder what side of the fence those arguing for children to undergo life changing surgery sit when it comes to assisted suicide?

This has already been answered so many times. there is no surgery or hormone treatment offered or done to children. HRT can start at 16 and the earliest age for surgery is 18. The safeguards in the system are many and at each stage of treatment is supervised by medically trained professionals. There is no instant access to any treatment whether it involves medication or not as the waiting times are lengthy and the administration slow.
The idea that children, or anyone else for that matter, can suddenly find themselves moving from one side to the other with hormone treatment and surgery in a very quick timescale is completely untrue.

two confused kids, my own daughter at a similar age gets confused as to whether she likes my little pony or boss baby not whether she should have a cock to piss through

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-britains...


And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)

[Clockwork Cupcake]

George Smiley said:

Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)

Do you read the Daily Mail by any chance?

[gregs656]

George Smiley said:

And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)

You are showing your ignorance of the law here.

There is no currently no requirement to have surgery (though this must be explained for a GRC).

Currently you also have the protected characteristic if

'A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment
if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has
undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of
reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other
attributes of sex.'

So what you describe could already happen. Do you find it a big problem in your day to day life? I suspect not.

[esxste]

George Smiley said:

two confused kids, my own daughter at a similar age gets confused as to whether she likes my little pony or boss baby not whether she should have a cock to piss through

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-britains...


And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)

You call those kids "confused", yet from the article they seem pretty sure. Which is exactly what I would expect. I'm a Cis-Male, and I'm certain that I've always felt male. I highly suspect that you would share that experience. Your daughter has probably never questioned her gender; just like the vast majority of people. If you asked her, I'm pretty sure she would say "I'm a girl".

When the kids you linked to in the article are asked, they answer with the same "I am a girl".

What makes you think they are "confused"? Because they haven't answered with the 'right' answer?

As for Barry/Brenda, I hate to break it to you, but Barry can do that right now. Barry can go home tonight, and come into work as Brenda tomorrow. This proposed law isn't changing it from being illegal to legal.


Just a side, and mostly unrelated question, but I am interested to know:

Do you think how someone else lives their life is their recommendation for how you should live yours?

[witko999]

WorldBoss said:

witko999 said:

Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.

Nope.

The concept of what actually being trans is was introduced to me pretty late in life, and even to this day the concept still isn't totally 'normalized' in my mind. My family aren't exactly advocates of the LGBT community and in no way ever suggested being trans was acceptable, either as a child or even now as an adult.

Despite that, I remember aged about 4-5 that I felt somewhat was uncomfortable being a boy, and very clearly remembering at 7 that I had made the decision that I wanted to be a girl, badly. Nothing external influenced these thoughts other than my natural development, they came out precisely nowhere and they stuck with me and grew over many years and never once went away, but with no explanation or words to describe how or what I felt, I fell deeper and deeper into a hole of repression, depression and dysphoria that I have little doubt would have killed me within a few years.

I'm grateful that my realization happened when it did, but knowledge of the true existence of transgenderism when I was younger would have saved me (and many other trans people) SO much damage. Way more damage caused than the very rare occasions of a child getting slightly confused and delaying their puberty slightly, IMHO.

witko999 said:

Your comments on people going through the 'wrong' puberty just sound ridiculous to me. This 'wrong' puberty is a natural event in the body and the alternative (right?) puberty involves hormone therapy and whatnot.

People are their minds, not their genitals or endocrine systems . Let me assure you, if your mind is towards the female end of the spectrum, going through a male puberty, subsequent masculinization and running primarily on testosterone is incredibility distressing.

If we are going to obsess about natural events in the body we might as well pack up all medical research and treatment and go back to praying things away. Cancer is a 'natural event' in the body FFS, nobody advocates sitting back and letting nature take its course on that one.

We medically treat people so they can live fuller, healthier, more productive lives than perhaps what their bodies would do without intervention. Trans health care is no different.

Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:02

Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:03

I think you're missing my point. You say that nothing external influenced your thoughts but that's just not true. As a child you are heavily influenced by everything around you all the time. It's why advertising is so effective on children. It's why bad, inattentive and aggressive chav parents will probably have badly behaved, aggressive chav children. For these reasons I don't think children should be introduced to transgenderism until they are 16 or so. And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.

People may be their minds but they are also their bodies and neither can function without the other.

The rest of your comments are utterly ridiculous. You're equating puberty with diseases.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

witko999 said:

And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.

Whether or not you believe it doesn't really alter anything. My personal experience (as posted a few posts back) disagrees with you.

[Dromedary66]

xjay1337 said:

Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".

And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a tigress (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a female tiger and had undertaken body modification to more resemble one.

[j_4m]

Dromedary66 said:

And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a cat (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a cat and had undertaken body modification to more resemble a cat.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...

Well, not really. It's one thing to want to be another variety of human, it's another to call yourself another species/attack helicopter.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Dromedary66 said:

And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a tigress (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a female tiger and had undertaken body modification to more resemble one.

[gregs656]

witko999 said:

And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.

Which is convenient.

Look at the example from the article of left handedness, do you think children today are influenced into being left handed?

How many gay men in Iran (for example) do you think are influenced into being gay at the moment? Do you think the massive social prejudice against gay people means it just doesn't happen? I take it you believe these things can be socialised out of you with conversion therapy?

Some things you are just born with, and you know something is different long before you understand what it is.

[witko999]

gregs656 said:

witko999 said:

And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.

Which is convenient.

Look at the example from the article of left handedness, do you think children today are influenced into being left handed?

How many gay men in Iran (for example) do you think are influenced into being gay at the moment? Do you think the massive social prejudice against gay people means it just doesn't happen? I take it you believe these things can be socialised out of you with conversion therapy?

Some things you are just born with, and you know something is different long before you understand what it is.

I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'. Taking my example earlier to ridiculous extremes, a child born and then left in the woods and raised by wolves is not going to be fretting about their gender, because it's meaningless to them and they don't know the other gender/sex even exists.

It's not the same as homosexuality, which is a preference. And I didn't say that I believe in conversion therapy or anything of that nature but to deny that there are any external influencing factors is pretty short sighted.

Your own final sentence is just as convenient as anything I've said.

[gregs656]

witko999 said:

I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'. Taking my example earlier to ridiculous extremes, a child born and then left in the woods and raised by wolves is not going to be fretting about their gender, because it's meaningless to them and they don't know the other gender/sex even exists.

It's not the same as homosexuality, which is a preference. And I didn't say that I believe in conversion therapy or anything of that nature but to deny that there are any external influencing factors is pretty short sighted.

Your own final sentence is just as convenient as anything I've said.

Except of course my 'final sentence' is demonstrably true, because I and many others have experienced it.

Like I have said previously; not having the language to describe something is not the same as not experiencing it.

I think the similarities to sexuality are striking - particularly around how people describe knowing, often from a very young age, but it is precisely this that you are trying to deny. Another similarity is that it was a commonly held belief that it was a choice, and something you could unlearn.

Indeed it was believed that kids shouldn't learn about homosexuality because it would corrupt them and make them all gay.

I don't think you believe that, but I think you are making exactly the same argument.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

witko999 said:

I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'.

And you seem to deny my own experience, and that of others, that we knew we were not the correct gender before we even knew such a thing was possible. I can categorically state that I had no information or knowledge that there was such a thing as being transgender, or that such people existed, yet decided completely on my own without any other information being available to me, that I wished I had been born a girl / should have been born a girl.

This realisation was long before the internet as we know it existed. The information was simply not available to me; I can assure you that my parents most definitely did not avail me of it.

Which brings me rather neatly to this...

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

CC, just a random question. Have all your friends and family accepted your 'transition' (for want of a better term, if that sounds clumsy) and who you now identify as, and has anyone surprised you by not doing so? Hope I'm not being too personal, I'm just genuinely curious.

My friends are all accepting, but my parents are totally not accepting. To the extent that when I see them they expect me to dress and act like a heterosexual male, and any talk of being otherwise is very quickly swept under the carpet with looks of nausea. That doesn't stop me from turning up with nail varnish, earrings, and rings, and carrying a unisex handbag though. Like I would give up any of those things. They just about tolerate that.

So, in summary, my realisation that I was transgender was most certainly not through nurture, nor through education, nor through parental support or coercion. Quite the opposite.

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 11th February 20:15

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Question for the heterosexual people - at what point did you decide to be heterosexual? Who influenced and coerced you into it? What turned you heterosexual?

[Randy Winkman]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Question for the heterosexual people - at what point did you decide to be heterosexual? Who influenced and coerced you into it? What turned you heterosexual?

When I saw Blondie for the first time on Tops of the Pops.