The Gender Non-binary debate.

Author
Discussion

esxste

1,480 posts

44 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
two confused kids, my own daughter at a similar age gets confused as to whether she likes my little pony or boss baby not whether she should have a cock to piss through

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/two-britains...


And to add to your final line - that is precisely what the knee jerk proposed legislation could allow - Yesterday I was working with Barry but today Barry has decided he is a she and is now Brenda - no need for op, any sort of transition you can just state your new sex (if the law gets put through)
You call those kids "confused", yet from the article they seem pretty sure. Which is exactly what I would expect. I'm a Cis-Male, and I'm certain that I've always felt male. I highly suspect that you would share that experience. Your daughter has probably never questioned her gender; just like the vast majority of people. If you asked her, I'm pretty sure she would say "I'm a girl".

When the kids you linked to in the article are asked, they answer with the same "I am a girl".

What makes you think they are "confused"? Because they haven't answered with the 'right' answer?

As for Barry/Brenda, I hate to break it to you, but Barry can do that right now. Barry can go home tonight, and come into work as Brenda tomorrow. This proposed law isn't changing it from being illegal to legal.


Just a side, and mostly unrelated question, but I am interested to know:

Do you think how someone else lives their life is their recommendation for how you should live yours?

witko999

237 posts

146 months

Monday 11th February
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WorldBoss said:
witko999 said:
Of course it is influenced by third parties. In an extreme example, a child raise in complete isolation would have no concept of 'trans' and would just get on with things with the only body they know. It's only nurture that introduces and normalises these concepts and plants a seed in the mind.
Nope.

The concept of what actually being trans is was introduced to me pretty late in life, and even to this day the concept still isn't totally 'normalized' in my mind. My family aren't exactly advocates of the LGBT community and in no way ever suggested being trans was acceptable, either as a child or even now as an adult.

Despite that, I remember aged about 4-5 that I felt somewhat was uncomfortable being a boy, and very clearly remembering at 7 that I had made the decision that I wanted to be a girl, badly. Nothing external influenced these thoughts other than my natural development, they came out precisely nowhere and they stuck with me and grew over many years and never once went away, but with no explanation or words to describe how or what I felt, I fell deeper and deeper into a hole of repression, depression and dysphoria that I have little doubt would have killed me within a few years.

I'm grateful that my realization happened when it did, but knowledge of the true existence of transgenderism when I was younger would have saved me (and many other trans people) SO much damage. Way more damage caused than the very rare occasions of a child getting slightly confused and delaying their puberty slightly, IMHO.

witko999 said:
Your comments on people going through the 'wrong' puberty just sound ridiculous to me. This 'wrong' puberty is a natural event in the body and the alternative (right?) puberty involves hormone therapy and whatnot.
People are their minds, not their genitals or endocrine systems . Let me assure you, if your mind is towards the female end of the spectrum, going through a male puberty, subsequent masculinization and running primarily on testosterone is incredibility distressing.

If we are going to obsess about natural events in the body we might as well pack up all medical research and treatment and go back to praying things away. Cancer is a 'natural event' in the body FFS, nobody advocates sitting back and letting nature take its course on that one.

We medically treat people so they can live fuller, healthier, more productive lives than perhaps what their bodies would do without intervention. Trans health care is no different.

Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:02


Edited by WorldBoss on Sunday 10th February 21:03
I think you're missing my point. You say that nothing external influenced your thoughts but that's just not true. As a child you are heavily influenced by everything around you all the time. It's why advertising is so effective on children. It's why bad, inattentive and aggressive chav parents will probably have badly behaved, aggressive chav children. For these reasons I don't think children should be introduced to transgenderism until they are 16 or so. And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.

People may be their minds but they are also their bodies and neither can function without the other.

The rest of your comments are utterly ridiculous. You're equating puberty with diseases.


Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.
Whether or not you believe it doesn't really alter anything. My personal experience (as posted a few posts back) disagrees with you.


Dromedary66

988 posts

76 months

Monday 11th February
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xjay1337 said:
Just that they perhaps do not want to go along with the whole "you're a bloke, but act and dress like a woman so they expect me to call them 'she' ".

smile
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a tigress (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a female tiger and had undertaken body modification to more resemble one.




j_4m

564 posts

2 months

Monday 11th February
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Dromedary66 said:
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a cat (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a cat and had undertaken body modification to more resemble a cat.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...
Well, not really. It's one thing to want to be another variety of human, it's another to call yourself another species/attack helicopter.
Advertisement

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Dromedary66 said:
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a tigress (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a female tiger and had undertaken body modification to more resemble one.
rolleyes


gregs656

2,246 posts

119 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.
Which is convenient.

Look at the example from the article of left handedness, do you think children today are influenced into being left handed?

How many gay men in Iran (for example) do you think are influenced into being gay at the moment? Do you think the massive social prejudice against gay people means it just doesn't happen? I take it you believe these things can be socialised out of you with conversion therapy?

Some things you are just born with, and you know something is different long before you understand what it is.

witko999

237 posts

146 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
gregs656 said:
witko999 said:
And I don't really believe that people are born 'knowing something is wrong'.
Which is convenient.

Look at the example from the article of left handedness, do you think children today are influenced into being left handed?

How many gay men in Iran (for example) do you think are influenced into being gay at the moment? Do you think the massive social prejudice against gay people means it just doesn't happen? I take it you believe these things can be socialised out of you with conversion therapy?

Some things you are just born with, and you know something is different long before you understand what it is.
I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'. Taking my example earlier to ridiculous extremes, a child born and then left in the woods and raised by wolves is not going to be fretting about their gender, because it's meaningless to them and they don't know the other gender/sex even exists.

It's not the same as homosexuality, which is a preference. And I didn't say that I believe in conversion therapy or anything of that nature but to deny that there are any external influencing factors is pretty short sighted.

Your own final sentence is just as convenient as anything I've said.

gregs656

2,246 posts

119 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'. Taking my example earlier to ridiculous extremes, a child born and then left in the woods and raised by wolves is not going to be fretting about their gender, because it's meaningless to them and they don't know the other gender/sex even exists.

It's not the same as homosexuality, which is a preference. And I didn't say that I believe in conversion therapy or anything of that nature but to deny that there are any external influencing factors is pretty short sighted.

Your own final sentence is just as convenient as anything I've said.
Except of course my 'final sentence' is demonstrably true, because I and many others have experienced it.

Like I have said previously; not having the language to describe something is not the same as not experiencing it.

I think the similarities to sexuality are striking - particularly around how people describe knowing, often from a very young age, but it is precisely this that you are trying to deny. Another similarity is that it was a commonly held belief that it was a choice, and something you could unlearn.

Indeed it was believed that kids shouldn't learn about homosexuality because it would corrupt them and make them all gay.

I don't think you believe that, but I think you are making exactly the same argument.

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
witko999 said:
I don't really believe there is a mechanism in place to automatically 'know you're in the wrong body' without outside stimuli influencing you. You (and others) seem to deny that anything has an influence and it's all internal 'knowing'.
And you seem to deny my own experience, and that of others, that we knew we were not the correct gender before we even knew such a thing was possible. I can categorically state that I had no information or knowledge that there was such a thing as being transgender, or that such people existed, yet decided completely on my own without any other information being available to me, that I wished I had been born a girl / should have been born a girl.

This realisation was long before the internet as we know it existed. The information was simply not available to me; I can assure you that my parents most definitely did not avail me of it.

Which brings me rather neatly to this...

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
CC, just a random question. Have all your friends and family accepted your 'transition' (for want of a better term, if that sounds clumsy) and who you now identify as, and has anyone surprised you by not doing so? Hope I'm not being too personal, I'm just genuinely curious.
My friends are all accepting, but my parents are totally not accepting. To the extent that when I see them they expect me to dress and act like a heterosexual male, and any talk of being otherwise is very quickly swept under the carpet with looks of nausea. That doesn't stop me from turning up with nail varnish, earrings, and rings, and carrying a unisex handbag though. Like I would give up any of those things. They just about tolerate that.

So, in summary, my realisation that I was transgender was most certainly not through nurture, nor through education, nor through parental support or coercion. Quite the opposite.




Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 11th February 20:15

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Question for the heterosexual people - at what point did you decide to be heterosexual? Who influenced and coerced you into it? What turned you heterosexual?


Randy Winkman

6,056 posts

127 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Question for the heterosexual people - at what point did you decide to be heterosexual? Who influenced and coerced you into it? What turned you heterosexual?
When I saw Blondie for the first time on Tops of the Pops. wink

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
When I saw Blondie for the first time on Tops of the Pops. wink
thumbup

Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too. hehe

br d

6,592 posts

164 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
thumbup

Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too. hehe
Yeah Blondie defo, and Julia Woods at school.
She was 3 years older than me and had spikey hair, I had zero chance of her even knowing I existed but christ on a bike it was a good job that it didn't really make you go blind!

8.4L 154

4,495 posts

191 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Randy Winkman said:
When I saw Blondie for the first time on Tops of the Pops. wink
thumbup

Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too. hehe
And quite a few lesbian/bi/pan trans girls were left conflicted between who they wanted to be and who they wanted to be with.

Edited by 8.4L 154 on Monday 11th February 20:31

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
And quite a few lesbian/bi/pan trans girls were left conflicted between who they wanted to be and who they wanted to be with.
Oh isn't that the truth. When I see a girl I'm attracted to, I never know if I want to date her, be her, or am envious of her. smile

Not so much the "be her" these days as I am very happy and at peace with being myself now. But certainly true in the past.


Fermit and Sexy Sarah

5,219 posts

38 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
CC, just a random question. Have all your friends and family accepted your 'transition' (for want of a better term, if that sounds clumsy) and who you now identify as, and has anyone surprised you by not doing so? Hope I'm not being too personal, I'm just genuinely curious.
My friends are all accepting, but my parents are totally not accepting. To the extent that when I see them they expect me to dress and act like a heterosexual male, and any talk of being otherwise is very quickly swept under the carpet with looks of nausea. That doesn't stop me from turning up with nail varnish, earrings, and rings, and carrying a unisex handbag though. Like I would give up any of those things. They just about tolerate that.

So, in summary, my realisation that I was transgender was most certainly not through nurture, nor through education, nor through parental support or coercion. Quite the opposite.




Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 11th February 20:15
That's harsh, and I'm sorry to hear that. Do you think they'll ever soften their rebuke?

Clockwork Cupcake

58,615 posts

210 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
That's harsh, and I'm sorry to hear that. Do you think they'll ever soften their rebuke?
I don't know.

I was going to write more here, but I thought perhaps it wasn't appropriate for a public forum.


Randy Winkman

6,056 posts

127 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
br d said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
thumbup

Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too. hehe
Yeah Blondie defo, and Julia Woods at school.
She was 3 years older than me and had spikey hair, I had zero chance of her even knowing I existed but christ on a bike it was a good job that it didn't really make you go blind!
smile In all seriousness, my Blondie comment was just a way of saying that I don't feel anyone influenced or coerced me into heterosexuality. For me it's always been a gut-feeling. I can spot what I think is a good looking fella or a guy with a good physique, but I'm not aware of any attraction. I'd no more want to have sex with them than an unattractive bloke. But with respect to how I look at women, I've joked to mates recently that my life mainly involves looking at the chest of every women I see without (hopefully) getting a slap around the face. However, sexuality isn't the main element of this thread and I wont deny that cultural/parental influences could have affected me in how I dress and in any number of other ways.

Fermit and Sexy Sarah

5,219 posts

38 months

Monday 11th February
quotequote all
Fully understand.