The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too.
She was 3 years older than me and had spikey hair, I had zero chance of her even knowing I existed but christ on a bike it was a good job that it didn't really make you go blind!
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Randy Winkman said:
When I saw Blondie for the first time on Tops of the Pops. 
Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Monday 11th February 20:31
8.4L 154 said:
And quite a few lesbian/bi/pan trans girls were left conflicted between who they wanted to be and who they wanted to be with.
Oh isn't that the truth. When I see a girl I'm attracted to, I never know if I want to date her, be her, or am envious of her. 
Not so much the "be her" these days as I am very happy and at peace with being myself now. But certainly true in the past.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:
CC, just a random question. Have all your friends and family accepted your 'transition' (for want of a better term, if that sounds clumsy) and who you now identify as, and has anyone surprised you by not doing so? Hope I'm not being too personal, I'm just genuinely curious.
My friends are all accepting, but my parents are totally not accepting. To the extent that when I see them they expect me to dress and act like a heterosexual male, and any talk of being otherwise is very quickly swept under the carpet with looks of nausea. That doesn't stop me from turning up with nail varnish, earrings, and rings, and carrying a unisex handbag though. Like I would give up any of those things. They just about tolerate that. So, in summary, my realisation that I was transgender was most certainly not through nurture, nor through education, nor through parental support or coercion. Quite the opposite.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Monday 11th February 20:15
br d said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Probably a fair few girls who realised they were lesbian, or at least bisexual, right around then too.
She was 3 years older than me and had spikey hair, I had zero chance of her even knowing I existed but christ on a bike it was a good job that it didn't really make you go blind!
In all seriousness, my Blondie comment was just a way of saying that I don't feel anyone influenced or coerced me into heterosexuality. For me it's always been a gut-feeling. I can spot what I think is a good looking fella or a guy with a good physique, but I'm not aware of any attraction. I'd no more want to have sex with them than an unattractive bloke. But with respect to how I look at women, I've joked to mates recently that my life mainly involves looking at the chest of every women I see without (hopefully) getting a slap around the face. However, sexuality isn't the main element of this thread and I wont deny that cultural/parental influences could have affected me in how I dress and in any number of other ways. 
j_4m said:
Dromedary66 said:
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a cat (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a cat and had undertaken body modification to more resemble a cat.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...
Well, not really. It's one thing to want to be another variety of human, it's another to call yourself another species/attack helicopter.https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...
amusingduck said:
I don't see the difference in principle, and I don't see how it's logical to effectively remove biology from the conversation when it comes to transgender people, but then use biology as the justification as to why this tiger guy's identity is illegitimate.
There have been a few research projects that have shown general structural and chemical differences in the brain between transgender, cisgender, hetero and homosexual people. There’s definitely some element of being born that way based on that evidence. Catman is just a fetishist.Dromedary66 said:
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a tigress (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a female tiger and had undertaken body modification to more resemble one.
Funnily enough I think people would rightly be claiming mental illness!j_4m said:
Dromedary66 said:
And if people are adamant that doing the above does classify a man as a women, then those people HAVE to agree that this gentleman was a cat (he's dead now). Since he self-identified as a cat and had undertaken body modification to more resemble a cat.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...
Well, not really. It's one thing to want to be another variety of human, it's another to call yourself another species/attack helicopter.https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/25/35580398_529e12c2...
would have been worse for that poor soul
gregs656 said:
Except of course my 'final sentence' is demonstrably true, because I and many others have experienced it.
Like I have said previously; not having the language to describe something is not the same as not experiencing it.
I think the similarities to sexuality are striking - particularly around how people describe knowing, often from a very young age, but it is precisely this that you are trying to deny. Another similarity is that it was a commonly held belief that it was a choice, and something you could unlearn.
Indeed it was believed that kids shouldn't learn about homosexuality because it would corrupt them and make them all gay.
I don't think you believe that, but I think you are making exactly the same argument.
My earlier point is nothing to do with language. With no frame of reference (ie. having never seen or heard of the other sex), that person cannot wish to be the other sex or know that they are in the wrong body. Some element of learning (or influence) must have happened beforehand to wish to be something. And that's what I mean when I say that there were influencing factors, not that your mates or parents were saying "go on Barry, be a girl", like CC is suggesting to try and make me look like a w@nker. Therefore knowing you were in the wrong body since birth is something I don't believe.Like I have said previously; not having the language to describe something is not the same as not experiencing it.
I think the similarities to sexuality are striking - particularly around how people describe knowing, often from a very young age, but it is precisely this that you are trying to deny. Another similarity is that it was a commonly held belief that it was a choice, and something you could unlearn.
Indeed it was believed that kids shouldn't learn about homosexuality because it would corrupt them and make them all gay.
I don't think you believe that, but I think you are making exactly the same argument.
How can you be born knowing something is different? Different to what?
Anyway, I'm not going to convince you of anything and it's unlikely that you're going to convince me of anything, so I'll leave it there.
Maybe my internal diagnostic system just isn't as finely tuned as yours.
witko999 said:
... like CC is suggesting to try and make me look like a w@nker.
To be absolutely clear, I have no such agenda. I have no reason or desire to make you look like anything. I was merely putting forward my personal experience as counterpoint to your assertions. Don't go making this personal, or making insinuations about me.
It is to do with language. A person raised in isolation can't have a language, so their ability to express anything is somewhat moot.
However, just because they wouldn't know if they were tall or short (relative measures) they would still have a height, they would still have a sexuality, they would still be right or left handed etc etc, I don't see why you couldn't experience body dysmorphia similarly.
Also, I don't think infants 'know something is wrong' but I do think in many cases people come to understand something is different about them. Of course in your example they wouldn't recognise that as a difference, but that doesn't mean they are not experiencing it - in the same way people don't notice they are aware they are the same as everyone else (if they are brought up in a predominantly straight environment) but I don't believe they come to this realisation at 16.
However, just because they wouldn't know if they were tall or short (relative measures) they would still have a height, they would still have a sexuality, they would still be right or left handed etc etc, I don't see why you couldn't experience body dysmorphia similarly.
Also, I don't think infants 'know something is wrong' but I do think in many cases people come to understand something is different about them. Of course in your example they wouldn't recognise that as a difference, but that doesn't mean they are not experiencing it - in the same way people don't notice they are aware they are the same as everyone else (if they are brought up in a predominantly straight environment) but I don't believe they come to this realisation at 16.
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