The Gender Non-binary debate.

[catso]

feef said:

Does the doctor have a gender at all? Remember The Doctor is a time-lord, not a human. We know this being has two hearts, so what's to say the outward appearance is either male or female? Certainly, the current doctor might look more feminine in a human context, but as an alien being, what's to say this being has either a penis or a vagina? That the beings can transition between apparent genders would also suggest that they carry all the reproductive organs, not just a half or subset of them.

Eh? you do know Dr Who isn't real, don't you?

[ClockworkCupcake]

TurboHatchback said:

It is 2017 and I genuinely don't think that many people mind how people dress, act and get themselves off however they do mind being told to abandon their understanding of parts of their language to appease a militant minority pushing an agenda.

I respectfully suggest that I have personal experiences that disagree with you on this. As so most people like me.

Again, respectfully, I see a lot of white males saying that they don't notice any sexism or racism in the workplace. They genuinely believe the issue is overstated because they don't notice it happening. Because very often these things aren't big confrontational arguments that everyone notices.

TurboHatchback said:

Terms of address, titles, descriptors etc aren't picked by most of us to acknowledge the persons feelings, they are simply to aid identification. This hijacking of words which, to much of the population, have existing meanings and then getting offended when people use them as they understand them rather than as a certain minority would like them to be used is the root of the problems IMO.

But does it? Why does my gas or electricity supplier absolutely need to know if I am male or female (as in please choose one). How does this in any way affect their ability to supply the service or me to pay for the service?

TurboHatchback said:

Someone describing an 6'4" individual with a deep voice and a penis in a dress as him, he, Mr etc isn't usually trying to be offensive they are simply describing what they see in a manner which others will understand, it doesn't imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

But if they are trying to live as a woman, have taken on a female name, and have asked people to call them by female pronouns, and you say "well fk you, I'm going to use male pronouns for you because that's what I want to do" then what does that say about you? I'd say that it rather *does* imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

For example, I used to use the name Jon (which is why my username was JonRB). I actually loathe that name now, and don't use it any more. It has lots of unpleasantness associated with it, and is part of a life that I have put behind me. I dislike people using the name, because it reminds me of that life. I have specifically and explicitly asked friends not to call me that name any more. Some friends took the attitude "well that's the name I have always known you as, that's the name I'm going to continue to call you, and I'm not prepared to change". What does that say about them, and what does it say about their friendship with me? Their convenience is literally more important than the fact that it upsets me.

I freely admit that the English language hasn't really caught up to this and it can be rather clumsy. But in many circumstances someone's gender just isn't particularly important. For example "I went to the doctor and they gave me a prescription". In that context, it's not particularly important what the gender of the doctor is, any more than their name, date of birth, ethnicity, skin colour, what they had for lunch, or what they plan to do with their evening later on. Any one of those attributes might be relevant in a different context, but not that one. And in the same way, in a lot of instances, someone's gender is no more relevant. Other than the fact that saying "they" sounds rather clumsy compared with "he" or "she".

[ClockworkCupcake]

The Surveyor said:

You're last para is quite telling and sad to read as it suggests that when you're in 'girl mode' you are more accepted than when you are in 'guy mode'. Something I'd never considered.

It's quite fascinating seeing how people react differently to me depending on what gender I present as. Although as a scientific study it is probably flawed as I am probably more approachable and at ease in girl mode.

But if I flash someone a smile as a girl I will almost always get one back, but if I do so as a guy people will generally not. And may look at me suspiciously.
There just seems to be a lower barrier to niceness when you're a woman. Or so it feels like.

As I said though, this isn't exactly a scientific study and there are lots of variables so I could just be talking rubbish.

[ClockworkCupcake]

wiggy001 said:

I had absolutely no idea you and JonRB (a poster I've always thought had a good posting style with reasoned debate) were one and the same.

Thank you. That's very nice of you to say.

FlyingMeeces said:

Likewise! Hiya Cupcake. I was BVD back in the day - name change because of transition.

[WinstonWolf]

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

It is 2017 and I genuinely don't think that many people mind how people dress, act and get themselves off however they do mind being told to abandon their understanding of parts of their language to appease a militant minority pushing an agenda.

I respectfully suggest that I have personal experiences that disagree with you on this. As so most people like me.

Again, respectfully, I see a lot of white males saying that they don't notice any sexism or racism in the workplace. They genuinely believe the issue is overstated because they don't notice it happening. Because very often these things aren't big confrontational arguments that everyone notices.

TurboHatchback said:

Terms of address, titles, descriptors etc aren't picked by most of us to acknowledge the persons feelings, they are simply to aid identification. This hijacking of words which, to much of the population, have existing meanings and then getting offended when people use them as they understand them rather than as a certain minority would like them to be used is the root of the problems IMO.

But does it? Why does my gas or electricity supplier absolutely need to know if I am male or female (as in please choose one). How does this in any way affect their ability to supply the service or me to pay for the service?

TurboHatchback said:

Someone describing an 6'4" individual with a deep voice and a penis in a dress as him, he, Mr etc isn't usually trying to be offensive they are simply describing what they see in a manner which others will understand, it doesn't imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

But if they are trying to live as a woman, have taken on a female name, and have asked people to call them by female pronouns, and you say "well fk you, I'm going to use male pronouns for you because that's what I want to do" then what does that say about you? I'd say that it rather *does* imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

For example, I used to use the name Jon (which is why my username was JonRB). I actually loathe that name now, and don't use it any more. It has lots of unpleasantness associated with it, and is part of a life that I have put behind me. I dislike people using the name, because it reminds me of that life. I have specifically and explicitly asked friends not to call me that name any more. Some friends took the attitude "well that's the name I have always known you as, that's the name I'm going to continue to call you, and I'm not prepared to change". What does that say about them, and what does it say about their friendship with me? Their convenience is literally more important than the fact that it upsets me.

I freely admit that the English language hasn't really caught up to this and it can be rather clumsy. But in many circumstances someone's gender just isn't particularly important. For example "I went to the doctor and they gave me a prescription". In that context, it's not particularly important what the gender of the doctor is, any more than their name, date of birth, ethnicity, skin colour, what they had for lunch, or what they plan to do with their evening later on. Any one of those attributes might be relevant in a different context, but not that one. And in the same way, in a lot of instances, someone's gender is no more relevant. Other than the fact that saying "they" sounds rather clumsy compared with "he" or "she".

I always think of you as JonRB because I'm a geek and it's your primary key. That's not me being awkward or not respecting your wishes, it's how I know who *you actually are... If I'm being brutally honest the beard was never *you* anyway

[ClockworkCupcake]

WinstonWolf said:

I always think of you as JonRB because I'm a geek and it's your primary key. That's not me being awkward or not respecting your wishes, it's how I know who *you actually are... If I'm being brutally honest the beard was never *you* anyway

Oh, for sure. Much like "the artist formerly known as Prince".

I understand where you are coming from. But I'm sure you realise that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Edit: Also, I was talking about people calling me "Jon" to my face, not that they know that my old username was JonRB.

Although, having said that, it does feel very odd seeing those letters on the screen. It feels like an old life now, even though its just a username change.

Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Monday 17th July 14:43

[WinstonWolf]

ClockworkCupcake said:

WinstonWolf said:

I always think of you as JonRB because I'm a geek and it's your primary key. That's not me being awkward or not respecting your wishes, it's how I know who *you actually are... If I'm being brutally honest the beard was never *you* anyway

Oh, for sure. Much like "the artist formerly known as Prince".

I understand where you are coming from. But I'm sure you realise that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Edit: Also, I was talking about people calling me "Jon" to my face, not that they know that my old username was JonRB.

Although, having said that, it does feel very odd seeing those letters on the screen. It feels like an old life now, even though its just a username change.

Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Monday 17th July 14:43

Yup, just like that. It doesn't matter what Prince called himself, his primary key was always Prince, I just had to do some additional processing as his name changed

At least you've not gone for a bloody symbol!

[ClockworkCupcake]

WinstonWolf said:

Yup, just like that. It doesn't matter what Prince called himself, his primary key was always Prince, I just had to do some additional processing as his name changed

At least you've not gone for a bloody symbol!

[TurboHatchback]

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

It is 2017 and I genuinely don't think that many people mind how people dress, act and get themselves off however they do mind being told to abandon their understanding of parts of their language to appease a militant minority pushing an agenda.

I respectfully suggest that I have personal experiences that disagree with you on this. As so most people like me.

I did specify most not all, obviously there are those that will have rather extreme and outspoken opinions about such and those are the ones you will notice.

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

Terms of address, titles, descriptors etc aren't picked by most of us to acknowledge the persons feelings, they are simply to aid identification. This hijacking of words which, to much of the population, have existing meanings and then getting offended when people use them as they understand them rather than as a certain minority would like them to be used is the root of the problems IMO.

But does it? Why does my gas or electricity supplier absolutely need to know if I am male or female (as in please choose one). How does this in any way affect their ability to supply the service or me to pay for the service?

They don't need to know, though perhaps it is one extra differentiating piece of information if they have several customers with the same name.

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

Someone describing an 6'4" individual with a deep voice and a penis in a dress as him, he, Mr etc isn't usually trying to be offensive they are simply describing what they see in a manner which others will understand, it doesn't imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

But if they are trying to live as a woman, have taken on a female name, and have asked people to call them by female pronouns, and you say "well fk you, I'm going to use male pronouns for you because that's what I want to do" then what does that say about you? I'd say that it rather *does* imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

Because it's misleading and confusing. The words male/female, he/she, him/her are important and fundamental aspects of someones description (if it's not clear which that's even more clear given it's rarity). If I was mugged by an 18 stone person with stubble, testicles and wearing a dress I'm not going to report to the police that a woman mugged me because that's simply not true and will totally confuse what they are looking for. If a barman asks 'whos next' then I will say 'him' or 'her' as it's the most clear and immediately identifier (or them if I can't tell), how the person is feeling isn't relevant.

ClockworkCupcake said:

For example, I used to use the name Jon (which is why my username was JonRB). I actually loathe that name now, and don't use it any more. It has lots of unpleasantness associated with it, and is part of a life that I have put behind me. I dislike people using the name, because it reminds me of that life. I have specifically and explicitly asked friends not to call me that name any more. Some friends took the attitude "well that's the name I have always known you as, that's the name I'm going to continue to call you, and I'm not prepared to change". What does that say about them, and what does it say about their friendship with me? Their convenience is literally more important than the fact that it upsets me.

If I knew you and you legally changed your name to Jemima then I'd happily call you that, I would refer to you as he/him or they/them in discussion though and would have no idea who people were talking about if they referred to you as she/her, my understanding of the words he, him etc is to denote the subject as the holder of a penis.

ClockworkCupcake said:

I freely admit that the English language hasn't really caught up to this and it can be rather clumsy. But in many circumstances someone's gender just isn't particularly important. For example "I went to the doctor and they gave me a prescription". In that context, it's not particularly important what the gender of the doctor is, any more than their name, date of birth, ethnicity, skin colour, what they had for lunch, or what they plan to do with their evening later on. Any one of those attributes might be relevant in a different context, but not that one. And in the same way, in a lot of instances, someone's gender is no more relevant. Other than the fact that saying "they" sounds rather clumsy compared with "he" or "she".

I've argued before that gender (as defined by you as completely unrelated to physical sex) is more than just not particularly important, it's completely irrelevant and immaterial. It seems bizarre to me that the same people who invented the idea are the ones arguing it's unimportant, a rather self defeating argument it seems. Sex is all that ever matters, by inventing anything else you're just inventing problems.

Date of birth, ethnicity and skin colour are good analogies, they are what they are but what they are shouldn't matter apart from where it actually matters (age). I won't describe a white person as black or a pensioner as 12 no matter how they feel because it is factually incorrect and misleading. That's not to imply anything about someones dress, manner, occupation or anything other than the simple facts of their description.

[ClockworkCupcake]

TurboHatchback said:

If I knew you and you legally changed your name to Jemima then I'd happily call you that, I would refer to you as he/him or they/them in discussion though and would have no idea who people were talking about if they referred to you as she/her, my understanding of the words he, him etc is to denote the subject as the holder of a penis.

Well, that would confuse a lot of people then. They know a person called Jemima who is to all intents and purposes female unless you're a gynacologist or a voyeur, and then when someone asks you "Oh, do you know Jemima then?" and you reply "Yes, I know him" they're going to say "wait... huh?"

Also, I can't help sniggering at the concept of a "holder of a penis" *fnarr*
Visions of all "ladies of negotiable affection" now being reclassified whilst they are attending to the "job at hand" so to speak.

[Mothersruin]

I've a mate who's brother swapped out and went the whole hog, snip & tuck, so to speak.

His kids call her 'Uncle Louise'.

[p2c]

ClockworkCupcake said:

It's quite fascinating seeing how people react differently to me depending on what gender I present as. Although as a scientific study it is probably flawed as I am probably more approachable and at ease in girl mode.

But if I flash someone a smile as a girl I will almost always get one back, but if I do so as a guy people will generally not. And may look at me suspiciously.
There just seems to be a lower barrier to niceness when you're a woman. Or so it feels like.

As I said though, this isn't exactly a scientific study and there are lots of variables so I could just be talking rubbish.

Its not just you,

[p2c]

TurboHatchback said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

It is 2017 and I genuinely don't think that many people mind how people dress, act and get themselves off however they do mind being told to abandon their understanding of parts of their language to appease a militant minority pushing an agenda.

I respectfully suggest that I have personal experiences that disagree with you on this. As so most people like me.

I did specify most not all, obviously there are those that will have rather extreme and outspoken opinions about such and those are the ones you will notice.

I tend to agree with CC on this one, There are three types of people, the take it in their stride and totally unphased, The stare, point and comment to who they are with thinking they are being discrete, Their not. Then there are the dangerous ones, Fortunately the latter are not that common but are a constant worry because you never know when you may come across one and they ruin our day and maybe life. The middle ones are pretty common unfortunately and make everything a bit of a grind. I like the first group though, they are the nice people who smile and chat to me now. But the vast majority do care, just not enough to make a scene.

TurboHatchback said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

Terms of address, titles, descriptors etc aren't picked by most of us to acknowledge the persons feelings, they are simply to aid identification. This hijacking of words which, to much of the population, have existing meanings and then getting offended when people use them as they understand them rather than as a certain minority would like them to be used is the root of the problems IMO.

But does it? Why does my gas or electricity supplier absolutely need to know if I am male or female (as in please choose one). How does this in any way affect their ability to supply the service or me to pay for the service?

They don't need to know, though perhaps it is one extra differentiating piece of information if they have several customers with the same name.

Really, someone with the same name at the same address and unless its a gender neutral name, how is knowing their gender going to help sort out Jemima 1 from Jemima 2 who will likely both be down as female.

TurboHatchback said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

TurboHatchback said:

Someone describing an 6'4" individual with a deep voice and a penis in a dress as him, he, Mr etc isn't usually trying to be offensive they are simply describing what they see in a manner which others will understand, it doesn't imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

But if they are trying to live as a woman, have taken on a female name, and have asked people to call them by female pronouns, and you say "well fk you, I'm going to use male pronouns for you because that's what I want to do" then what does that say about you? I'd say that it rather *does* imply any opinion or prejudice about the individual concerned.

Because it's misleading and confusing. The words male/female, he/she, him/her are important and fundamental aspects of someones description (if it's not clear which that's even more clear given it's rarity). If I was mugged by an 18 stone person with stubble, testicles and wearing a dress I'm not going to report to the police that a woman mugged me because that's simply not true and will totally confuse what they are looking for. If a barman asks 'whos next' then I will say 'him' or 'her' as it's the most clear and immediately identifier (or them if I can't tell), how the person is feeling isn't relevant.

I think from your description of your attacker then your probably right, but that's no excuse for misgendering a trans person in the latter example and i'm not sure what the last bit says about you as a person to be around..

TurboHatchback said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

For example, I used to use the name Jon (which is why my username was JonRB). I actually loathe that name now, and don't use it any more. It has lots of unpleasantness associated with it, and is part of a life that I have put behind me. I dislike people using the name, because it reminds me of that life. I have specifically and explicitly asked friends not to call me that name any more. Some friends took the attitude "well that's the name I have always known you as, that's the name I'm going to continue to call you, and I'm not prepared to change". What does that say about them, and what does it say about their friendship with me? Their convenience is literally more important than the fact that it upsets me.

If I knew you and you legally changed your name to Jemima then I'd happily call you that, I would refer to you as he/him or they/them in discussion though and would have no idea who people were talking about if they referred to you as she/her, my understanding of the words he, him etc is to denote the subject as the holder of a penis.

really not sure how you would know who has a penis or vag without assaulting them.

TurboHatchback said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

I freely admit that the English language hasn't really caught up to this and it can be rather clumsy. But in many circumstances someone's gender just isn't particularly important. For example "I went to the doctor and they gave me a prescription". In that context, it's not particularly important what the gender of the doctor is, any more than their name, date of birth, ethnicity, skin colour, what they had for lunch, or what they plan to do with their evening later on. Any one of those attributes might be relevant in a different context, but not that one. And in the same way, in a lot of instances, someone's gender is no more relevant. Other than the fact that saying "they" sounds rather clumsy compared with "he" or "she".

I've argued before that gender (as defined by you as completely unrelated to physical sex) is more than just not particularly important, it's completely irrelevant and immaterial. It seems bizarre to me that the same people who invented the idea are the ones arguing it's unimportant, a rather self defeating argument it seems. Sex is all that ever matters, by inventing anything else you're just inventing problems.

Date of birth, ethnicity and skin colour are good analogies, they are what they are but what they are shouldn't matter apart from where it actually matters (age). I won't describe a white person as black or a pensioner as 12 no matter how they feel because it is factually incorrect and misleading. That's not to imply anything about someones dress, manner, occupation or anything other than the simple facts of their description.

I'm not sure the people you refer to in the first paragraph are the same people. There is a lot of diversity within the trans umbrella and quite a lot of what you speak of comes from feminism anyway although there is overlap.

With respect to the second paragraph, none of your examples are artificially applied binary choices. you are not black or white, there is an infinite range of skin tone in the middle, you are not old or young, Again a fair range in between and some old people will consider themselves still young compared to younger people who may say they are old. In fact I'm struggling to think of anything else in the analogue natural world which is truly binary, Even the artificial digital world of the computer is based on analogue variation which is approximated to binary. The simple fact is we live in a world of infinite variation, some of it approximates being the same but its not, If we cant attribute any other aspect of a human to one of two possibilities its preposterous to expect gender to be.

ps I'll be amazed if the quoting works and can be followed!

[Morningside]

Wow it appears now that adverts must be gender neutral.

[p2c]

Morningside said:

Wow it appears now that adverts must be gender neutral.

That's a bit of a stretch to post that news on this thread. Its less trans related than the Dr Who news.

[p2c]

Actually, I take that back as the reasons for the ASA changes is much like the TfL announcements and the power of subliminal and constant messages which are detrimental to society.

[xjay1337]

Morningside said:

Wow it appears now that adverts must be gender neutral.

Really? So what about size 12 adult shoes, do they need to be advertised neutrally? Or condoms? Or tampax? Or any countless numbers of products aimed solely at a certain gender?

[ClockworkCupcake]

xjay1337 said:

Really? So what about size 12 adult shoes, do they need to be advertised neutrally? Or condoms? Or tampax? Or any countless numbers of products aimed solely at a certain gender?

Condoms - suitable for people with a penis.
Tampax - suitable for people who menstruate
Size 12 adults shoes - suitable for people with size 12 adult feet.

[Zod]

Morningside said:

Wow it appears now that adverts must be gender neutral.

The PH massive should be happy, as part of the motivation here is to ban adverts that show men as useless at domestic and family tasks.

[gregs656]

TurboHatchback said:

If I knew you and you legally changed your name to Jemima then I'd happily call you that, I would refer to you as he/him or they/them in discussion though and would have no idea who people were talking about if they referred to you as she/her, my understanding of the words he, him etc is to denote the subject as the holder of a penis.

You said this earlier in the thread and it still staggers me. I just do not understand the rational behind wilfully choosing not to recognise what is in front of you. There are individuals in an organisation I work for who transitioned years a go and if you referred to them by their original sex pronoun people would have no idea who you were talking about. In the same way for example that if you referred to a married woman by their maiden name 15 years later people would have no idea who you were talking about.

You seem to centre your argument around language, you did it earlier also - here

TurboHatchback said:

We as humans have invented language as a means of conveying information, we have associated specific meanings with specific words in order to accurately represent concepts and entities. If we just abandon the meanings of words in order to avoid offending people then the word itself becomes meaningless.

I have to say that your understanding of language as something fixed and specific is not my understanding of language at all. I understand language primarily as a shared, plastic and often vague tool which allows me to interpret and express my environment. I firmly believe that the meaning of words can be found in how they are used. It is clear language changes over time, so it is some what odd to defend a particular snapshot of it as the 'correct' version - in the same way it would be odd to say the current course and contents of a river is the 'correct' version. What is important is what is current.

So to go back to my previous point - to insist on calling what is clearly a woman 'he', or what is clearly a man 'she', does not make you a defender of language, and it does not make you easier to understand - it is nothing more than an unnecessary cruelty which is all about you and nothing about them. And for what?

Edited by gregs656 on Tuesday 18th July 10:00

Edited by gregs656 on Tuesday 18th July 10:01