The Gender Non-binary debate.

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Discussion

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Just asking 8.4L/CC if they were to use such a service provider and said service provider refused (assuming notified up front about the changes) - would that male escort be breaching the act?
Dunno.

But what if the moon was made of cheese?

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
Just asking 8.4L/CC if they were to use such a service provider and said service provider refused (assuming notified up front about the changes) - would that male escort be breaching the act?
Dunno.

But what if the moon was made of cheese?
I guess NASA would know the answer.

descentia

116 posts

74 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George what if you to set yourself up as a male escort and find out for us. Then you would have the truth.
You might find that the norm in the profession is not to limit themselves to one gender or the other, AIUI and it's only my understanding as it's not something I've used or much experience with, but choosing one over the other would be reducing your clientele by 50%.
Note I haven't exposed you to the thought of non-binary or intersex people using your services. You may if you wish add them in for consideration.

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Don't forget the male heterosexual porn starts who do "gay for pay" (ie. appear in gay porn because it pays well).

If you're in the sex industry, then you can probably separate your own sexual preference from work.

Of course, I very much doubt that George is actually interested in the answer - I think he just wants to keep on banging his drum whilst denying he's doing so.


Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 15th March 13:22

The Li-ion King

360 posts

3 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Isnt it a case that people that are transgender are in the wrong body? Or is transgender a new word for transvestite?
I think there's still regular transvestites, though there's a new subset who just refer to themselves as 'men in skirts'



[url]

|https://thumbsnap.com/0ibSRN6j[/url]

who make no efforts to do the makeup, heels etc, but may find a denim skirt more practical (and cheaper) than a kilt wink

Plus fashion is changing a lot, this is apparently in for 2019 from what's been shown at London Fashion Week rolleyes

If there's another heatwave, cue headlines of boys wearing skirts to school, or headlines like this

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6514743/builders-wea...



Edited by The Li-ion King on Friday 15th March 16:56

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Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
The Li-ion King said:
I think there's still regular transvestites, though there's a new subset who just refer to themselves as 'men in skirts'

[...]

who make no efforts to do the makeup, heels etc, but may find a denim skirt more practical (and cheaper) than a kilt wink

Plus fashion is changing a lot, this is apparently in for 2019 from what's been shown at London Fashion Week rolleyes
Wow. It's almost as if those men are just wearing clothes. wink

Always amuses me how a woman can wear a t-shirt and jeans, and if she does then she's just wearing a t-shirt and jeans. But if a guy puts on a skirt then he's a cross-dresser.






Halb

46,671 posts

122 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Wow. It's almost as if those men are just wearing clothes. wink
Always amuses me how a woman can wear a t-shirt and jeans, and if she does then she's just wearing a t-shirt and jeans. But if a guy puts on a skirt then he's a cross-dresser.
Have you read, MOnstrous Regiment?
A quote from it, 'And a woman by herself is missing a man, while a man by himself is his own master.
Trousers. That's the secret. Trousers and a pair of socks. I never dreamed it was like this. Put on trousers and the world changes. We walk different. We act different. I see these girls and I think: Idiot's Get yourself some trousers!'
biggrin

j_4m

982 posts

3 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Halb said:
Have you read, MOnstrous Regiment?
A quote from it, 'And a woman by herself is missing a man, while a man by himself is his own master.
Trousers. That's the secret. Trousers and a pair of socks. I never dreamed it was like this. Put on trousers and the world changes. We walk different. We act different. I see these girls and I think: Idiot's Get yourself some trousers!'
biggrin
Great book, good old fashioned silliness with a sharp satire stick.

Vealie

104 posts

65 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Vealie said:
CC - show me where I have said anything even remotely like that. I AM critical of woke, beardy-bro activists though. Their tactics of closing down debate are really tiresome.
Oh, come on. You came charging into the thread throwing around combative terms, making accusations of sealioning (thank you for introducing me to this term, and also demonstrating what it means), demanding people engage you in debate on things already discussed ad nauseum, and generally being obnoxious.

What you are now doing is something we have seen from several posters before you - softening your stance, setting yourself up as "the good guy who is only asking questions", making out that it is the trans people who are the unreasonable ones. Next you'll be claiming you are the victim, and people are ganging up on you. You'll poke people until you provoke a negative response, and then claim that you are being abused and picked on. As I said, we've seen this MO several times on this thread. You may even be the same person, for all I know.

Vealie said:
Their tactics of closing down debate are really tiresome.
Your tactics of trying to invalidate the debate are even more tiresome. As is having to go over the same ground again and again. It's like a revolving door.

Of course, you'll respond to this post by denying everything and claiming you're the victim. But I know gaslighting when I see it - I've been on the receiving end of it enough times to recognise it.


Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Friday 15th March 11:33
Where have you been debating this issue if you think an ongoing discussion with the occasional hotspot makes one of the participants a victim? I'll hold back the tears and respond if you are ok to go on?

When I joined the discussion you were all arguing endlessly about pronouns and misgendering and some of the discourse was quite testy. I joined in in the same spirit. Almost straight away I was asked to stop using the term TRA as some found it offensive. I did. I also moderated my tone. Moving forward i am going to assume it is ok to hold a contrary view and to argue in defence of that view.

Now, to avoid going over old ground I'm going back into lurk mode until a new topic comes up. Hopefully, I'll get onto that topic on the ground floor.

Ciao!



Gecko1978

2,241 posts

96 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
What if the service provider was a male escort with a strict female only rule?
"What if", "what if", "what if". It's all about whatifism with you isn't it.

You're so concerned with edge cases and unlikely scenarios, and using them to show ipso facto that this means that the exception disproves the rule.
what if indeed ffs George I read this debate as I was curious about people's thought process in respect of being trans. I don't understand it really and a sure as hell don't get the 97 or more different categories people seem to have come up with and frankly I am not bothered. Male Female, something else seems to work for me. As for a trans women getting access to women to commit crimes or a trans women wanting to dupe straight men who don't like the idea of trans women. Jesus has it happend to you does it happen at all in any volume to suggest its a actual risk.

people are s regardless of how they identify or claim to identify and you are as likely to be a victim as anyone else.

Also you don't HAVE TO, use the term they want you to use but equally you might try an be civil

Women at work is called Helen, I say women but when I see her I just see a dude with pink hair in a pink dress with child like hair bands. Helen wants to dress like that be called a she then so be it. Who am I to challenge it. It does not affect me, but at same time I don't believe Helen is a women but have no reason to voice that in public etc. She is not a threat to me or anyone so live an let live.

You don't seem to be able to do that which is a real worry.

George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Gecko, come back from a date after you've fked a trans without know g then tell me my scenario isn't a risk

Gecko1978

2,241 posts

96 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Gecko, come back from a date after you've fked a trans without know g then tell me my scenario isn't a risk
how would I fk a trans as you put it without knowing and then know. Your basically saying I meet a great looking women go back to hers etc do the deed all night and then she says Ha Gotcha I used to have a cock.....it's not going to happen is it.

The world is not like that where someone after having sex puts themself in harms way etc. So I either have sex and never find out or she tells me she was a he and I feeling uncomfortable (don't mind admitting that) say what a cock etc.

You are trying to say you have sex enjoy it then feel you have been duped into a homosexual act you would other wise not do.....it's just farcical unless your holiday plans are causing for lady boys in thailand

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Gecko, come back from a date after you've fked a trans without know g then tell me my scenario isn't a risk
Is that what this is all about then? It happened to you, and now you have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder?

Also, risk of what? Catching homosexuality?

Do you *really* think that trans women prey on men like you, trying to dupe them into sex with them? Honestly?


George Smiley

1,148 posts

20 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Yes they do

Vealie

104 posts

65 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
8.4L 154 said:
Vealie said:
What's your take then 8.4L?

The equality act says;

"There are six main areas set out in the Equality Act 2010 that acknowledge the need for women-only spaces, services, roles and activities and makes it lawful to exclude males (including trans-identifying males). In all cases the use of an exemption must be a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. There are no blanket rules since each situation must be considered on its own merits and due regard must be given to all groups affected by invoking the exemption. The least discriminatory option must always be chosen.

Single-sex services, Occupational requirements, Communal accommodation, Gender-affected activities, Single-characteristic associations, Women-only shortlists(applicable to political parties only)"

Right enough it doesn't mention toilets specifically and I concede that they are a grey area but it clearly lays out exemptions as above.

What's your case law? I want to educate myself.

For the lurkers.....I just admitted I might be wrong. Ever heard that from a trans ally?

Interesting that the person who came into this thread shouting about sea lioning is demanding evidence!

But anyway, that's not really a quote or text from the Equality act, its an interpretation (with added transphobia) from one of the Anti Trans Political Lobby groups. Having said that they do seem to have captured the important parts where use of exemptions has to be justified as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim. I can't however for the life of me see how it supports your claim that a GRC is required to access single sex spaces. Especially given guidance from the EHRC has explicitly stated the opposite and made it clear the expectation of the EQ act is inclusion of trans people in their experienced gender and "proportionate means to legitimate aim" is in very restricted circumstances and on a case by case basis.






And for the record the Equality act actually defines a person as having the "gender reassignment" protected characteristic as

EQ Act 2010 said:
A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.






Edited by 8.4L 154 on Friday 15th March 10:27
Sorry!

One last thing. The EHRC screenshots above are not the latest take on this issue from the EHRC. They issued the following statement last year. This was intended to clear up confusion on the subject of transgender people and single-sex exemptions.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/ne...

The key passage for CC and 8.4L is as follows; (and from an unimpeachable source)

"Certain exceptions in the Act set out circumstances in which it is permissible to treat someone differently because of their sex or gender reassignment, for reasons of public policy or to protect the rights of others. The use of such exceptions generally needs to be justified as being a proportionate way to achieve a legitimate objective. This will often require a case-by-case approach to determine what is legitimate and proportionate in any given circumstance.

Under the Act, the protection from gender reassignment discrimination applies to all trans people who are proposing to go, are undergoing or have undergone (part of) a process of gender reassignment. At the same time, a trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC."

'....apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC'. Toilets are still a grey area but this is quite clear when considering the sex-based exemptions.

8.4L. Something to think about at least?

Back to lurking.......

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
Only in your nightmares / fantasies.

In reality, they don't.

Fermit and Sexy Sarah

5,366 posts

39 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
As more of a reader than a contributor to this thread I have to say, George, the playing of your one stringed guitar is getting frightfully boring.

Please provide one link showing an instance of a man being duped in to bed by a trans female. I can't recall ever reading (etc) of it happening.

It's not impossible, but I would presume that the majority of trans ladies are not actually ashamed of who they are, and would want to be accepted. Why would they be interested in someone who thought 'yuck' about their identity?

Halb

46,671 posts

122 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
Clockwork Cupcake said:
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
Only in your nightmares / fantasies.

In reality, they don't.
In that sort of projection, it explains the phobia.

Gecko1978

2,241 posts

96 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
George Smiley said:
Yes they do
OK I think that statement sums you up. I would be more worried if I were a women trans or other wise and a shagged a like you...your hatred is just totally irrational. Bar women at work I have never met a trans women and believe its relatively rare so the chance of me unknowingly having sex with one is about as concerning as black holes in space

Clockwork Cupcake

59,054 posts

211 months

Friday 15th March
quotequote all
In fairness, if I were I the kind of girl to be sleeping around, I think I would be equally concerned about shagging a tt like George as he is about shagging a tt like mine. evil