The Gender Non-binary debate.
Discussion
Noodle1982 said:
Why not?
They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
Well, if they completely pass as male then they may well find that they get treated as such. They might find their opinions listened to more, for example, as they are no longer "just a woman". It depends on whether or not they are seen as a man or not. They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
Male white privilege is a broad term, and of course there will be variation. A dodgy-looking geezer will probably experience less of it and a well-spoken middle class man will experience more of it, for example.
You only need to look at the gender pay gap and the glass ceiling to see that being male has its advantages, and you only need to look at casual racism and police profiling to see that being white has its advantages. But as I said, as a white male you are used to it and take it for granted, so are far less likely to notice it.
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 30th March 19:37
Clockwork Cupcake said:
How exactly does it impact you to play along with the charade, if that's what you consider it to be, for the sake of politeness? If someone is presenting as female, what exactly is the harm in just treating them as such, or at the very least using female pronouns for them, even if you are laughing behind their back at it?
Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
The problem i see with it all isn't the fact that people want to identify as a different gender, it's the almost double standards when it comes to the language.Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
Look at the fiasco involving Caroline Farrow on twitter last week. Now compare that to Rachel Mckinnon's (transgender cycling world champion) tweet about how all cis folk should be burned to death in a grease fire (tweet has since been deleted). She got a ban from twitter for a few hours.
She seems quite a prolific trans figure. Now imagine if a non trans person of a similar status was to say the same but about trans people.
I could only imagine what that persons life would be like!
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Noodle1982 said:
Why not?
They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
Well, if they completely pass as male then they may well find that they get treated as such. They might find their opinions listened to more, for example, as they are no longer "just a woman". It depends on whether or not they are seen as a man or not. They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
Male white privilege is a broad term, and of course there will be variation. A dodgy-looking geezer will probably experience less of it and a well-spoken middle class man will experience more of it.
Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
Noodle1982 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
How exactly does it impact you to play along with the charade, if that's what you consider it to be, for the sake of politeness? If someone is presenting as female, what exactly is the harm in just treating them as such, or at the very least using female pronouns for them, even if you are laughing behind their back at it?
Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
The problem i see with it all isn't the fact that people want to identify as a different gender, it's the almost double standards when it comes to the language.Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
Look at the fiasco involving Caroline Farrow on twitter last week. Now compare that to Rachel Mckinnon's (transgender cycling world champion) tweet about how all cis folk should be burned to death in a grease fire (tweet has since been deleted). She got a ban from twitter for a few hours.
She seems quite a prolific trans figure. Now imagine if a non trans person of a similar status was to say the same but about trans people.
I could only imagine what that persons life would be like!
Here is the tweet she was banned briefly for.
Noodle1982 said:
What about when it comes to disabilities?
Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
Take all those people and compare them to people with equivalent circumstances who are neither male or white and i think you will find that on every level in comparative circumstances white male privilege is real.Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
Only an idiot would try to say it doesn't by trying to claim for it to be so unless every white male has to be in better privileged position to any one single non white cis female
Noodle1982 said:
What about when it comes to disabilities?
Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
So because it isn't applied equally, it doesn't exist?Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
You only think it doesn't exist because you are surrounded by it, have always benefitted from it in one way or another, to a greater or lesser extent, and it is so normal for you that you don't notice it.
I freely admit to having benefitted from it too, but unlike you I don't deny it nor are blind to its existence. For example, I know I can earn more money presenting as male than as female. I know my professional knowledge and experience are less likely to be questioned when presenting as male than as female.
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
How exactly does it impact you to play along with the charade, if that's what you consider it to be, for the sake of politeness? If someone is presenting as female, what exactly is the harm in just treating them as such, or at the very least using female pronouns for them, even if you are laughing behind their back at it?
Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
The problem i see with it all isn't the fact that people want to identify as a different gender, it's the almost double standards when it comes to the language.Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
Look at the fiasco involving Caroline Farrow on twitter last week. Now compare that to Rachel Mckinnon's (transgender cycling world champion) tweet about how all cis folk should be burned to death in a grease fire (tweet has since been deleted). She got a ban from twitter for a few hours.
She seems quite a prolific trans figure. Now imagine if a non trans person of a similar status was to say the same but about trans people.
I could only imagine what that persons life would be like!
Here is the tweet she was banned briefly for.
The one she posted which she deleted clearly stated she wanted them burned to death in a grease fire.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
You only think it doesn't exist because you are surrounded by it, have always benefitted from it in one way or another, to a greater or lesser extent, and it is so normal for you that you don't notice it.
Give me examples of how I have benefited from it.You are assuming an awful lot and we know we shouldn't assume things in this day and age.
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
What about when it comes to disabilities?
Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
Take all those people and compare them to people with equivalent circumstances who are neither male or white and i think you will find that on every level in comparative circumstances white male privilege is real.Do people with down syndrome have white male privilege? Or dwarfs? or blind people? or deaf people?
Do gay people have it? do homeless people have it? do people born into poverty have it?
I feel that who ever came up with the whole white male privilege tagline didn't really think it through.
There needs to be a check list drawn up for folk like me to cross check each day.
Only an idiot would try to say it doesn't by trying to claim for it to be so unless every white male has to be in better privileged position to any one single non white cis female
Noodle1982 said:
Thats not the tweet. i was referring to.
The one she posted which she deleted clearly stated she wanted them burned to death in a grease fire.
Ok.... and? That's the behaviour of one person. It's a hell of an extrapolation to draw any conclusions from it other than that. The one she posted which she deleted clearly stated she wanted them burned to death in a grease fire.
Noodle1982 said:
Why not?
They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
As you and others have amply demonstrated, trans people are not viewed as real men or women by a large amount of the population and as a result they suffer a huge amount of discrimination that cis people don't. They are white and male.
Or is white male privilege selective? and if so who determines which white males have it and which don't?
Noodle1982 said:
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
How exactly does it impact you to play along with the charade, if that's what you consider it to be, for the sake of politeness? If someone is presenting as female, what exactly is the harm in just treating them as such, or at the very least using female pronouns for them, even if you are laughing behind their back at it?
Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
The problem i see with it all isn't the fact that people want to identify as a different gender, it's the almost double standards when it comes to the language.Were I to meet you face to face, I would do my best to be polite to you regardless of what I actually think of you. I'm just asking you to do the same for me, which includes using female pronouns.
Look at the fiasco involving Caroline Farrow on twitter last week. Now compare that to Rachel Mckinnon's (transgender cycling world champion) tweet about how all cis folk should be burned to death in a grease fire (tweet has since been deleted). She got a ban from twitter for a few hours.
She seems quite a prolific trans figure. Now imagine if a non trans person of a similar status was to say the same but about trans people.
I could only imagine what that persons life would be like!
Here is the tweet she was banned briefly for.
The one she posted which she deleted clearly stated she wanted them burned to death in a grease fire.
Now Caroline Farrow is unapologetic regarding her tweets and has indeed doubled down and been emboldened to abuse further, I feel its only a matter of time before she becomes the martyr in front of a court that she so desires to be.
Noodle1982 said:
Give me examples of how I have benefited from it.
I just did - in the very post you replied to (only you pruned it out of the quote). Noodle1982 said:
You are assuming an awful lot and we know we shouldn't assume things in this day and age.
I'm assuming nothing, because I have lived it and benefited from it and experienced it. I was born a white male, and lived as a man for a lot of my adult life. I see how women are treated differently from men, I see how I am treated differently as a woman than I was as a man, I see how my black friends are treated differently to my white friends and also to me. The fact that you demand proof and examples is a good indication that you are not used to having your statements and opinions challenged. There's an example right there.
Noodle1982 said:
Good to see Louise Moody barging into a conversation between two trans people and reporting the tweets and instigating a pile on . Who is being silenced again?Either way its out of context and only a complete idiot would take it literally,
George Smiley said:
Noodles there’s no debate, don’t try and impart your logic or reasoning you’ll just get beaten down as I was
On the contrary, you're just miffed that there *is* debate rather than everyone just sharing your outdated worldview and agreeing with you.All your logic and reasoning has been rebuffed with people showing your logic being flawed and your reasoning not being based on reality or probability.
So not so much beaten down as just beaten.
8.4L 154 said:
Noodle1982 said:
Either way its out of context and only a complete idiot would take it literally, It's a cesspit of sociopaths, nothing more.
I've followed this topic with interest, I'd love to comment and give my views but sadly, George Smiley is correct.
There is very little point engaging with posters such as cupcake, it's a one way street. It's sad really, I'm sure a lot can be learned but when individuals utterly refuse to give ground or concede in a debate but would rather "talk at you" until you give up then it's a waste of time.
It has,at times, only served to confirm some incorrect stereotypes rather than educate.
A fine topic wasted...........
NorfolkInClue1 said:
There is very little point engaging with posters such as cupcake, it's a one way street. It's sad really, I'm sure a lot can be learned but when individuals utterly refuse to give ground or concede in a debate but would rather "talk at you" until you give up then it's a waste of time.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I've always strived to answer questions asked of me, to correct misunderstandings with experience and facts, and to engage in debate where it is a debate. In fact, I've had many posters both here in the thread, and privately in email, thank me for my contributions and say that they have learned a lot. So, I'd like to think that much *can* be learned from posters such as me. Sadly, some of what gets posted here isn't debate though, but thinly veiled transphobia dressed up in strawman arguments. And I'm not sure what ground there is to give there.
My background is in science. If I'm presented with new facts that challenge my current understanding of something, I'm more than willing to accommodate them and modify my position. So I don't agree that I am intransigent. By all means engage in debate and I might be swayed.
For example, in George's bee in his bonnet, I conceded that in pretty much all cases a trans woman would make her history known one way or another, or at the least make an exit before it needed to be made known, and that therefore George's much-feared (and fantasised) scenario wouldn't happen. That was conceding ground, wasn't it?
Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Saturday 30th March 22:18
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