Van drives into crowd in Barcelona
Discussion
andy_s said:
Any progress is good, probably another 500 years and things should be fine...!
As I say - it does have a positive peripheral effect (even if nothing else but to distance moderate everyday Islam from the more medieval interpretation) but as I mentioned previously, when looked at with the backdrop of ferocious intervention in their territory for decades you can see that the 'hearts and minds' game is a bit problematic.
Agreed. But there has been ferocious intervention globally throughout time. Tribalism, crusades, empires etc. To some extent it continues today, but one has to ask why? Surely the answer is not always the well trotted out "oil". As I say - it does have a positive peripheral effect (even if nothing else but to distance moderate everyday Islam from the more medieval interpretation) but as I mentioned previously, when looked at with the backdrop of ferocious intervention in their territory for decades you can see that the 'hearts and minds' game is a bit problematic.
The intervention in the Middle East is not something I particularly agree with either. I personally don't know how we justify it, and this is probably not the thread to discuss it but in most historical cases folks on both sides have grown up a bit and moved on.
No true Muslim would be able to dissuade these extremists and convince them that what they are doing is against their religion, no matter their position in the religious organisation.
Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
andy_s said:
Cobnapint said:
The only way forward for Islam, and therefore the rest of civil society and the human race, is for the Koran to undergo massive reform. ie, take out the bits that are presently giving permission to these medievil f
kwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.
In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how fked up this world is at the minute.
Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
The bible's the same. kwits to throw gays of roofs, slit the throats of non-believers, and announce fatwas against anybody that insults Mohammed.In its present form, it incites religious hatred, subjugates women, and instructs death. Amazingly, you can quite legally buy this thing from your local WH Smith, but stand outside the store criticising it and you'd better have a good brief. That is how f
ked up this world is at the minute.Until reform happens (and it isn't) - fully expect this crap to continue for generations to come.
TTmonkey said:
No true Muslim would be able to dissuade these extremists and convince them that what they are doing is against their religion, no matter their position in the religious organisation.
Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
Just fuel to the fire. Until these guys are "justifiably" viewed as something different by the rest of the Muslim faith, you are attacking their faith in general. Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The non extremists need permission from within to view any such action as ok first. That is the hard bit IMHO.
TTmonkey said:
No true Muslim would be able to dissuade these extremists and convince them that what they are doing is against their religion, no matter their position in the religious organisation.
Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
The British government did, but don't want to publish the report, for fear of offending one of our bigger weapons customers... - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hom...Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
amusingduck said:
How on earth can you reform the Koran?
It's literally the word of God.
How can you believe in God, and believe that the Koran is his word, then chuck the sections that you don't like in the bin?!
Modern Christians do that with the Old Testament....It's literally the word of God.
How can you believe in God, and believe that the Koran is his word, then chuck the sections that you don't like in the bin?!
Well, all of it apart from the gays are bad bit.
TTmonkey said:
No true Muslim would be able to dissuade these extremists and convince them that what they are doing is against their religion, no matter their position in the religious organisation.
Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
As long as we enjoy being in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty unfortunately the gloves stay on - to a degree. Only intervention by their own God would be sufficient proof for these people to change their ways.
So the answer is clearly not criticism from within their own religious family.
The only way forward would be to unleash the spooks, spies, special forces etc with a total gloves off approach. When information is found that points to a terrorist cell or its support infrastructure, when you identify the people behind the crimes, the ones inciting the actions, supporting the actions, gloating in the aftermath, you need to take them down, take them out.
But our society no longer allows this type of action. Our forces have been persecuted for false crimes without the government and military standing their corner.
We need to find the source of the problem. Follow the money, find the mouthpieces. We should be doing more to hammer ISIS where it still exists.
The attack on Cambrills is very interesting. A soft target, and the death toll could have been extreme had things not obviously gone a bit wrong. But it shows they are looking away from the travel hubs and city centres. Cambrills is much like Bournemouth or Brighton or any other soft target.
ISIS lives in many places - where do you want to start 'hitting' them - join MINUSMA in the Sahel, put boots on the ground in Syria, bomb Iraq...? These things are already being done [by others] and large efforts are being made to do exactly as you suggest within the limits of not making the situation worse.
Domestically the intelligence services know their onions but one of the main problems that has dogged the west since it started on it's foreign adventures has been the paucity of humint, [which is why May wants to read our emails], also factor in to the equation that 'taking someone out' (not to lunch presumably) may not be the best way to advance your interest - turn them, watch them etc.
I'm pretty sure they are doing what they can, and I don't really want to live in a place where anyone can be potentially plucked from the street on foundless allegations never to be seen again, whatever their creed; 'first they came for the muslims' etc.
Cambrills was interesting, but double attacks are a common MO with IS. An iconic target (Barcelona) serves them well with global attention, a softer target [or more unexpected one] may yield more bodies - especially with the distraction of a major incident a few hours before just up the road. Fair play to the Spanish Police for their actions.
rscott said:
The British government did, but don't want to publish the report, for fear of offending one of our bigger weapons customers... - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hom...
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