More money to find missing girl
Discussion
PastelNata said:
This.
They should have locked the doors.
I have lived in the region for over 5 years and the Algarve can indeed instil a sense of security given that Portugal generally is one of the safest places in Europe.
The locals are very family-centric and it is very different to many places in the UK where I would absolutely not trust leaving kids unattended for any length of time.
In Portugal, kids can and do wander freely but at night, that young...no.
There is no doubt in my mind that this was a grave error of judgement that coincided with the terrible coincidence of a paedo tourist being in the exact same spot at the exact same time.
The dam they recently searched is a popular spot, I must have cycled there a 100x in the past few years. It is a kayaking venue, picnic area etc. I'd be surprised if they now find remains as it isn't as remote as some media are suggesting but not impossible I guess.
Agree with most of that.They should have locked the doors.
I have lived in the region for over 5 years and the Algarve can indeed instil a sense of security given that Portugal generally is one of the safest places in Europe.
The locals are very family-centric and it is very different to many places in the UK where I would absolutely not trust leaving kids unattended for any length of time.
In Portugal, kids can and do wander freely but at night, that young...no.
There is no doubt in my mind that this was a grave error of judgement that coincided with the terrible coincidence of a paedo tourist being in the exact same spot at the exact same time.
The dam they recently searched is a popular spot, I must have cycled there a 100x in the past few years. It is a kayaking venue, picnic area etc. I'd be surprised if they now find remains as it isn't as remote as some media are suggesting but not impossible I guess.
I lived in the Algarve before during and after 2007 when the McCann abduction happened.
The whole thing makes no sense.
Back then Praia da Luz was very undeveloped, most of the tourism ended at Lagos (and even that was slim pickings). Apart from the Mark Warner there was nothing much over that way, Luz was a tiny quiet fishing village with a small beach, and the last place along the coast for tourists, there was literally nothing further west. It was a long drive from the airport, most tourists didnt entertain going that far over. What I found odd about the German paedo story was that it was highly unlikely a random single tourist would be wandering around Luz at night looking for an opportunity to commit any crime, let alone snatching a child. The best hunting grounds would have been further east around Praia da Rocha, Carvoeiro, Vilamoura, Albufeira where there were lots of tourists in lots of resorts. Luz was just not that kind of place back then. Any disturbance or strange behaviour would have been observed by someone which I find odd isn't the case here.
Then there is the police. Understanding the local Portuguese police back then is to understand the definition of unprofessionalism. Before the McCann incident there was violent crime in the Algarve. It was rare but it happened. One year a dead body washed up on the beach near Lagos and the local police pushed it back out to sea so the currents would take it along to the next juristiction because they didnt want the paperwork. Turned out to have been a drug smuggler from North Africa that had fallen off a boat, so nobody really cared. Everybody knew about it, but nothing much was done about it. In a similar vein there was a case to be heard about a man accused of voilently raping a young girl. The police disclosed loads of information about the case to local media, and whipped up such a frenzy that there was a lynch mob waiting for him outside the courthouse when he was due to appear, so the case had to be moved to Lisbon. It really was a s
t show back then, luckily crime was rare so the cops got away with it. When McCann happened it was obvious to me that the whole thing would be handled badly and the investigation would be a mess.I feel that now they are clutching at straws. The countryside is essentailly scrub land, bushes and rocks for miles. The reservoir is one of many, but an interesting development hopefully. My best guess is that if she did end up somewhere remote (regardless of how she got there) wild dogs and other animals would have destroyed any remains long ago. I hope they do find MM and everyone concerned can get closure. It must be a terrible burden to carry as as the parents but as others have said, I'd never leave my kids alone like that, ever. Parents have a duty of care to their children and in this instance they failed with devastating consequences.
BikeBikeBIke said:
RB Will said:
Muzzer79 said:
What did they whisper to you? 
The dog thing has been reasonably de-bunked.
got a link? would be interested to see itThe dog thing has been reasonably de-bunked.
This came from an actual cadaver dog handler some time ago:
dog handler said:
I am a cadaver dog handler and I think there's a very high chance of false positives in this case. The first thing to consider is that there were two dogs, but there was only one handler, and most false alerts are handler error.
As others have noted, there were huge breaches of search protocol in the vehicle search. Any dog will eventually give a false alert if you keep telling it to work the same area over and over, which is what happened. It's been awhile since I read it, but I recall that the pattern of alerts in the apartment also made me suspicious that they were reworking the dogs over the same areas over and over again in there. So they were basically asking for a false alert.
Even if the alerts were correct, though, we're talking about hotel rooms/vehicles where who knows what could have occurred. Someone crashes their bike and bleeds all over their clothes, then drops them in the trunk of the car and the fluid soaks into the fibers of the upholstery (or behind the sofa, or anywhere else the dogs alerted)? That could be enough to get a cadaver dog alert even though it has no relevance to the McCann case.
Dogs are pretty amazing and I have a tremendous amount of faith in mine, and all of their alerts have been backed up by forensic evidence. I'd still never convict someone just based on the evidence they provide, especially since on a few occasions that forensic evidence showed that, while the alert was correct (there was actually blood there), it had nothing to do with the actual mission we were on.
As others have noted, there were huge breaches of search protocol in the vehicle search. Any dog will eventually give a false alert if you keep telling it to work the same area over and over, which is what happened. It's been awhile since I read it, but I recall that the pattern of alerts in the apartment also made me suspicious that they were reworking the dogs over the same areas over and over again in there. So they were basically asking for a false alert.
Even if the alerts were correct, though, we're talking about hotel rooms/vehicles where who knows what could have occurred. Someone crashes their bike and bleeds all over their clothes, then drops them in the trunk of the car and the fluid soaks into the fibers of the upholstery (or behind the sofa, or anywhere else the dogs alerted)? That could be enough to get a cadaver dog alert even though it has no relevance to the McCann case.
Dogs are pretty amazing and I have a tremendous amount of faith in mine, and all of their alerts have been backed up by forensic evidence. I'd still never convict someone just based on the evidence they provide, especially since on a few occasions that forensic evidence showed that, while the alert was correct (there was actually blood there), it had nothing to do with the actual mission we were on.
Muzzer79 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
RB Will said:
Muzzer79 said:
What did they whisper to you?
The dog thing has been reasonably de-bunked.
got a link? would be interested to see itThe dog thing has been reasonably de-bunked.
This came from an actual cadaver dog handler some time ago:
dog handler said:
I am a cadaver dog handler and I think there's a very high chance of false positives in this case. The first thing to consider is that there were two dogs, but there was only one handler, and most false alerts are handler error.
As others have noted, there were huge breaches of search protocol in the vehicle search. Any dog will eventually give a false alert if you keep telling it to work the same area over and over, which is what happened. It's been awhile since I read it, but I recall that the pattern of alerts in the apartment also made me suspicious that they were reworking the dogs over the same areas over and over again in there. So they were basically asking for a false alert.
Even if the alerts were correct, though, we're talking about hotel rooms/vehicles where who knows what could have occurred. Someone crashes their bike and bleeds all over their clothes, then drops them in the trunk of the car and the fluid soaks into the fibers of the upholstery (or behind the sofa, or anywhere else the dogs alerted)? That could be enough to get a cadaver dog alert even though it has no relevance to the McCann case.
Dogs are pretty amazing and I have a tremendous amount of faith in mine, and all of their alerts have been backed up by forensic evidence. I'd still never convict someone just based on the evidence they provide, especially since on a few occasions that forensic evidence showed that, while the alert was correct (there was actually blood there), it had nothing to do with the actual mission we were on.
As others have noted, there were huge breaches of search protocol in the vehicle search. Any dog will eventually give a false alert if you keep telling it to work the same area over and over, which is what happened. It's been awhile since I read it, but I recall that the pattern of alerts in the apartment also made me suspicious that they were reworking the dogs over the same areas over and over again in there. So they were basically asking for a false alert.
Even if the alerts were correct, though, we're talking about hotel rooms/vehicles where who knows what could have occurred. Someone crashes their bike and bleeds all over their clothes, then drops them in the trunk of the car and the fluid soaks into the fibers of the upholstery (or behind the sofa, or anywhere else the dogs alerted)? That could be enough to get a cadaver dog alert even though it has no relevance to the McCann case.
Dogs are pretty amazing and I have a tremendous amount of faith in mine, and all of their alerts have been backed up by forensic evidence. I'd still never convict someone just based on the evidence they provide, especially since on a few occasions that forensic evidence showed that, while the alert was correct (there was actually blood there), it had nothing to do with the actual mission we were on.
Two dogs were taken, one that was trained to detect blood and the other, cadaverine. They both alerted in Madeleine's bedroom. Blood alone would presumably not have made the cadaverine dog bark. That kinda suggests someone died in that room - and there were no records of anyone having done so previously.
The comments about the handling of the dogs are interesting. They went with their handler, they weren't just handed over to someone. What were these breaches of protocol, by a guy who had (it's fair to assume) a lot of experience? Who made the observations and allegations of the breaches? Was it someone who thought too long had been spent investigating the car, expecting the dogs to alert in the first few seconds? - or who, perhaps, did not understand that the dogs needed some time to acclimatise to somehing that lots of different people had used?
Edited by Lotusgone on Wednesday 31st May 17:37
Muzzer79 said:
This came from an actual cadaver dog handler some time ago:
This is supposition from someone who wasn't actually there rather than evidence. The supposition is false positive followed by an explanation of how that MIGHT happen.dog handler said:
I am a cadaver dog handler and I think there's a very high chance of false positives in this case. The first thing to consider is that there were two dogs, but there was only one handler, and most false alerts are handler error.
I'm more willing to trust those who were there & trained dogs rather than someone who's never been within miles of the place.
Biggy Stardust said:
Muzzer79 said:
This came from an actual cadaver dog handler some time ago:
This is supposition from someone who wasn't actually there rather than evidence. The supposition is false positive followed by an explanation of how that MIGHT happen.dog handler said:
I am a cadaver dog handler and I think there's a very high chance of false positives in this case. The first thing to consider is that there were two dogs, but there was only one handler, and most false alerts are handler error.
I'm more willing to trust those who were there & trained dogs rather than someone who's never been within miles of the place.
What does him being there have to do with it? He's a trained cadaver dog handler, every job they go to is in a strange new place. Why would a dog trainer be at the crime scene?He's giving a professional opinion based on standard protocols, you couldn't get a more expert opinion.
sugerbear said:
eldar said:
Biggy Stardust said:
I wonder what goes through the minds of the remaining kids................
A very good question. Add grandparents, inlaws and friends.Are you both hopeful they disown their parents and join in the attacks on them? Would that give you a warm feeling inside?
eccles said:
What does him being there have to do with it? He's a trained cadaver dog handler, every job they go to is in a strange new place. Why would a dog trainer be at the crime scene?He's giving a professional opinion based on standard protocols, you couldn't get a more expert opinion.
Biggy Stardust said:
Him not being there would suggest that he didn't see what happened. I would lend greater credence to the dog handler who was there and who did see what happened.
Who was killed by her mum and dad in such a way that she bled (during a quick check on a meal out), who then temporarily hid her until the world media were all over them and then hired a car to move the body!If the dogs support a ludicrous hypothesis, the dogs are wrong. The fact there was no conviction suggests the Portuguese legal system has very little faith in the dogs.
Biggy Stardust said:
eccles said:
What does him being there have to do with it? He's a trained cadaver dog handler, every job they go to is in a strange new place. Why would a dog trainer be at the crime scene?He's giving a professional opinion based on standard protocols, you couldn't get a more expert opinion.
ScotHill said:
768 said:
Now society's full of anxious children and anxious parents, with the parents chucking back anti-depressants and daily behaviours are driven by the one in a billion events etched at the forefront of their minds and reinforced by daily news stories about the latest TV presenter's antics.
Possibly the biggest load of ste posted on this thread, and this is a Madeleine McCann thread.eccles said:
Biggy Stardust said:
eccles said:
What does him being there have to do with it? He's a trained cadaver dog handler, every job they go to is in a strange new place. Why would a dog trainer be at the crime scene?He's giving a professional opinion based on standard protocols, you couldn't get a more expert opinion.
Some people don't choose to believe the dogs- fine. However, my understanding of the dogs' purpose there was to indicate what they could detect; if they aren't to be believed then what was the point of their being there?
BikeBikeBIke said:
Biggy Stardust said:
Him not being there would suggest that he didn't see what happened. I would lend greater credence to the dog handler who was there and who did see what happened.
Who was killed by her mum and dad in such a way that she bled (during a quick check on a meal out), who then temporarily hid her until the world media were all over them and then hired a car to move the body!If the dogs support a ludicrous hypothesis, the dogs are wrong. The fact there was no conviction suggests the Portuguese legal system has very little faith in the dogs.
OkBiggy Stardust said:
eccles said:
Biggy Stardust said:
eccles said:
What does him being there have to do with it? He's a trained cadaver dog handler, every job they go to is in a strange new place. Why would a dog trainer be at the crime scene?He's giving a professional opinion based on standard protocols, you couldn't get a more expert opinion.
Some people don't choose to believe the dogs- fine. However, my understanding of the dogs' purpose there was to indicate what they could detect; if they aren't to be believed then what was the point of their being there?
The dogs are there for guidance. They are not evidence in themselves. They indicated blood in the car for example, but they can’t say who’s blood, how much, when it got there or how.
What’s more likely - two parents, with no motive or history of violence or crime, killed their daughter intentionally or accidentally and then moved her body under the full glare of the world’s media to another location, in a hire car, without covering their tracks…….or a previous renter of the car cut themselves on holiday and spilt some blood in it?
Muzzer79 said:
They (the dog team) filmed the dogs searching the car and apartment. The whole thing…….
The dogs are there for guidance. They are not evidence in themselves. They indicated blood in the car for example, but they can’t say who’s blood, how much, when it got there or how.
What’s more likely - two parents, with no motive or history of violence or crime, killed their daughter intentionally or accidentally and then moved her body under the full glare of the world’s media to another location, in a hire car, without covering their tracks…….or a previous renter of the car cut themselves on holiday and spilt some blood in it?
It's not a case of what's more likely- it's that there is evidence which people are desperate to dismiss.The dogs are there for guidance. They are not evidence in themselves. They indicated blood in the car for example, but they can’t say who’s blood, how much, when it got there or how.
What’s more likely - two parents, with no motive or history of violence or crime, killed their daughter intentionally or accidentally and then moved her body under the full glare of the world’s media to another location, in a hire car, without covering their tracks…….or a previous renter of the car cut themselves on holiday and spilt some blood in it?
Biggy Stardust said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Biggy Stardust said:
It's not a case of what's more likely-
It is.Investigations are all about what is more likely. People are convicted in court on the basis of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’
Muzzer79 said:
Why are you desperate to amplify evidence which is, at best, circumstantial and, at worst, irrelevant?
Investigations are all about what is more likely. People are convicted in court on the basis of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’
So prosecute for child neglect if the police need to justify their frequent trips abroad. The evidence consists of parental confessions to that effect.Investigations are all about what is more likely. People are convicted in court on the basis of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’
Biggy Stardust said:
So prosecute for child neglect if the police need to justify their frequent trips abroad. The evidence consists of parental confessions to that effect.
How did we jump from cadaver dogs to the Police needing to justify their trips abroad? If there was enough evidence to convict the parents of anything, it would have happened by now.
Biggy Stardust said:
So prosecute for child neglect if the police need to justify their frequent trips abroad. The evidence consists of parental confessions to that effect.
I strongly suspect that leaving babies alone for 30 minutes at a time on holiday doesn't even get close to criminal neglect. My wife works with disadvantaged primary school kids and their day to day life involves *far* worse stuff than that and even that doesn't warrant a conviction.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff