The Irish border
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
The whole argument is that the economies of the EU countries are prepared to commit suicide along with the UK.
For some, untold economic harm to their own country is fine as long as they get to see the same happening to Johnny Foreigner.Eric Mc said:
The basis of that argument being the UK is so important they HAVE to bow to our terms (if the UK can actually agree to what these terms are supposed to be).
If only our own government could even agree between themselves we'd be off to a good start!Tuna said:
Eric Mc said:
Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?mx5nut said:
Tuna said:
Eric Mc said:
Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?majordad said:
mx5nut said:
Tuna said:
Eric Mc said:
Once in NI, they are in the UK and there will be no more checks once they are in - the DUP is insisting (quite rightly) that those travelling between NI and GB do not get checked. They do not want any sort of "border" - either real or virtual, between NI and GB.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need to provide ID - such as passport to sail any of the ferries between Ireland (RoI and NI) and the UK?Tuna said:
slow_poke said:
But Leave voters do give f
ks, because they voted to take back control of immigration. And i don't seee how relying on another government, in Dublin, to assist UK immigration control by passing information of arrivals in the RoI is anywhere near "in control".
It's a circle that I haven't seen being squared yet.
"Control" is about being able to decide who is eligible to stay - live and work - in the UK, not standing on a border yelling "papers please!".ks, because they voted to take back control of immigration. And i don't seee how relying on another government, in Dublin, to assist UK immigration control by passing information of arrivals in the RoI is anywhere near "in control".It's a circle that I haven't seen being squared yet.
The issue is as much the concern of the EU (people travelling in the other direction), so there is no reason not to agree a mutual sharing of traveller IDs at external borders.
Some people are determined to claim that there is "no solution" for any of this because it suits their political agenda. There was also "no solution" to advancing peace in Ireland right up until the Good Friday Agreement was brokered.
If 20bn a year were being offered, the Irish border would cease being an issue overnight.
mx5nut said:
Mrr T said:
You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.
That's because "WTO" is just a buzzword they've heard. Few of them seem to understand what it would actually mean for the country.WTO rules mean we have to treat imports from all countries (other than those we have FTAs with) the same way. They do not mean that every 'border' in the sense of a line on a map has to have the same infrastructure as Felixstowe. The Dublin to Belfast motorway doesn't need that any more than Mousehole harbour or Brighton marina does.
Dr Jekyll said:
It's the Remainers that don't understand.
WTO rules mean we have to treat imports from all countries (other than those we have FTAs with) the same way. They do not mean that every 'border' in the sense of a line on a map has to have the same infrastructure as Felixstowe. The Dublin to Belfast motorway doesn't need that any more than Mousehole harbour or Brighton marina does.
A few pages ago you claimed the UK did not need to create a border for goods with Ireland on a no deal brexit. Now its about infrastructure. WTO rules mean we have to treat imports from all countries (other than those we have FTAs with) the same way. They do not mean that every 'border' in the sense of a line on a map has to have the same infrastructure as Felixstowe. The Dublin to Belfast motorway doesn't need that any more than Mousehole harbour or Brighton marina does.
I have posted a link to the rules for importing goods from outside the EU. They require customs declarations, tracking of the goods, etc, etc. While the infrastructure required on a land border is different to at a port. You still need places where lorries can stop and paper work can be checked. This can all be built in Ireland but there is a cost, not just to build, but in the delays it will cause to cross border moment of goods.
It's been over two years since the referendum. However long since Art 50 was triggered. And here we still are, still no fking idea what the shape ofthe UK's only land border is going to look like. Plenty of waffle, plenty of hot air, plenty of speculation, plenty of everything except a plan.
wtf guys? wtf is going on? This was supposed to be simple wasn't it? So simple, the Irish border didn't even feature with any prominence in any Leaver Leader's thought process apparently.
You guys, the UK electorate, you've been played. You've made your decision based on incomplete information and now you're stuck with it. And so is Ireland - your closest neighbour, a natural ally, a friendly State where relations had been improving massively beyond recognition from 20 years ago. The UK is/was going to fk them over without apparently a second thought.
It's a crying shame. But it is what it is. So get on with it. Ireland's suffered far worse decisions & action from GB in history, it'll survive this too.
I wonder if the UK as it's constituted today will?
king idea what the shape ofthe UK's only land border is going to look like. Plenty of waffle, plenty of hot air, plenty of speculation, plenty of everything except a plan.wtf guys? wtf is going on? This was supposed to be simple wasn't it? So simple, the Irish border didn't even feature with any prominence in any Leaver Leader's thought process apparently.
You guys, the UK electorate, you've been played. You've made your decision based on incomplete information and now you're stuck with it. And so is Ireland - your closest neighbour, a natural ally, a friendly State where relations had been improving massively beyond recognition from 20 years ago. The UK is/was going to f
k them over without apparently a second thought. It's a crying shame. But it is what it is. So get on with it. Ireland's suffered far worse decisions & action from GB in history, it'll survive this too.
I wonder if the UK as it's constituted today will?
slow_poke said:
It's been over two years since the referendum. However long since Art 50 was triggered. And here we still are, still no fking idea what the shape ofthe UK's only land border is going to look like. Plenty of waffle, plenty of hot air, plenty of speculation, plenty of everything except a plan.
wtf guys? wtf is going on? This was supposed to be simple wasn't it? So simple, the Irish border didn't even feature with any prominence in any Leaver Leader's thought process apparently.
You guys, the UK electorate, you've been played. You've made your decision based on incomplete information and now you're stuck with it. And so is Ireland - your closest neighbour, a natural ally, a friendly State where relations had been improving massively beyond recognition from 20 years ago. The UK is/was going to fk them over without apparently a second thought.
It's a crying shame. But it is what it is. So get on with it. Ireland's suffered far worse decisions & action from GB in history, it'll survive this too.
I wonder if the UK as it's constituted today will?
1. Nobody, but nobody, said it was going to be simple.king idea what the shape ofthe UK's only land border is going to look like. Plenty of waffle, plenty of hot air, plenty of speculation, plenty of everything except a plan.wtf guys? wtf is going on? This was supposed to be simple wasn't it? So simple, the Irish border didn't even feature with any prominence in any Leaver Leader's thought process apparently.
You guys, the UK electorate, you've been played. You've made your decision based on incomplete information and now you're stuck with it. And so is Ireland - your closest neighbour, a natural ally, a friendly State where relations had been improving massively beyond recognition from 20 years ago. The UK is/was going to f
k them over without apparently a second thought. It's a crying shame. But it is what it is. So get on with it. Ireland's suffered far worse decisions & action from GB in history, it'll survive this too.
I wonder if the UK as it's constituted today will?
2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
SpeckledJim said:
1. Nobody, but nobody, said it was going to be simple.
2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
3. Remain did, leave took no notice and labled it as project fear.2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
Ghibli said:
SpeckledJim said:
1. Nobody, but nobody, said it was going to be simple.
2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
3. Remain did, leave took no notice and labled it as project fear.2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
Boris Johnston said travelling across the Northern Irish border could be as easy as travelling between London boroughs
Ghibli said:
SpeckledJim said:
1. Nobody, but nobody, said it was going to be simple.
2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
3. Remain did, leave took no notice and labled it as project fear.2. Very few of us give any kind of toss what kind of border ends up between NI and RoI. Even in NI, 40% voted leave. It's as big a deal as we choose to make it.
3. Neither campaign made anything of the border issue. If it was such an obvious deal-breaker, perhaps Remain should have mentioned it, and then they might have won?
4. RoI is a big boy. Independent and everything. It's not our job to do what they want. It's their job to do what they want.
None of that happened, complete failure all round, and it's certainly not the fault of the Leave campaign.
(Or, maybe, some people are making a mountain of a molehill because it suits their purposes)
SpeckledJim said:
It's not Leave's job to take notice. It was Remain's job to do a good job of describing the situation, and the population's job of saying "Jesus Christ, what about NI! Not on my watch, Remain Wins!"
None of that happened, complete failure all round, and it's certainly not the fault of the Leave campaign.
(Or, maybe, some people are making a mountain of a molehill because it suits their purposes)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qJzsmJoW2M0None of that happened, complete failure all round, and it's certainly not the fault of the Leave campaign.
(Or, maybe, some people are making a mountain of a molehill because it suits their purposes)
Ghibli said:
SpeckledJim said:
It's not Leave's job to take notice. It was Remain's job to do a good job of describing the situation, and the population's job of saying "Jesus Christ, what about NI! Not on my watch, Remain Wins!"
None of that happened, complete failure all round, and it's certainly not the fault of the Leave campaign.
(Or, maybe, some people are making a mountain of a molehill because it suits their purposes)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qJzsmJoW2M0None of that happened, complete failure all round, and it's certainly not the fault of the Leave campaign.
(Or, maybe, some people are making a mountain of a molehill because it suits their purposes)
4 of 10 votes in NI were to Leave. So even THEY weren't really bothered.
? Ghibli said:
SpeckledJim said:
We for the very most part didn't care. For the most part we still don't.
4 of 10 votes in NI were to Leave. So even THEY weren't really bothered.
That would explain why you didn't take any notice.4 of 10 votes in NI were to Leave. So even THEY weren't really bothered.
If your reason for voting Remain was because you wanted to avoid hassle on the NI RoI border, then fair enough, that's perfectly legitimate.
But you'd be in a group of maybe 1% who shared that motivation. Even the people of NI didn't share that motivation.
So, if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal it will be able to put whatever border it likes, including no controls at all between NI and the republic.
The boot would then be on the other foot because the republic would have to set up some kind of border controls at the behest of the EU, and it would be up them how they do it.
The boot would then be on the other foot because the republic would have to set up some kind of border controls at the behest of the EU, and it would be up them how they do it.
Ayahuasca said:
So, if the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal it will be able to put whatever border it likes, including no controls at all between NI and the republic.
The boot would then be on the other foot because the republic would have to set up some kind of border controls at the behest of the EU, and it would be up them how they do it.
I would imagine that there will be lorry loads of asylum seekers heading straight through an open border into the UK and lorries backed up for miles trying to get out of the UK. The boot would then be on the other foot because the republic would have to set up some kind of border controls at the behest of the EU, and it would be up them how they do it.
Ghibli said:
I would imagine that there will be lorry loads of asylum seekers heading straight through an open border into the UK and lorries backed up for miles trying to get out of the UK.
Seriously ? Just because they will have got into the EU through its southern border doesn't mean that it will be so easy to get from there to the RoI - or do you think the people smugglers will include the cost of an air ticket from Rome/Athens/wherever to Dublin in their tariff ? Or maybe just pop them on a dinghy like the ones used for crossing the relatively benign Med, but to get from say Brest around the Scillies and up to Cork ?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff