So much cobblers talked about Brexit.
Discussion
Coolbanana said:
Well, that's not entirely true.
We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
Too many other, possibly more significant, factors which cannot be ignored. For example if Corbyn/Momentum were to win the next election, and in 5-10 years the economy had tanked, how will you know how much of that tanking to attribute to Brexit and how much to Corbyn ?We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
Coolbanana said:
Well, that's not entirely true.
We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
So, yes, there will be a time when Data will support the drawing of parallels.
That's all fine in theory but do you think historical data will be presented in a way that is easier to trace than a bowl of spaghetti? Any analysis will just turn into the kind of shouting match we get now, if anyone has got the energy left to be bothered.We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
So, yes, there will be a time when Data will support the drawing of parallels.
sidicks said:
Derek Smith said:
Yet it was put to the public to make the decision.
Which they did. Just as the public voted to go in, in the first place.That old myth again! The plan for political union was clear at the time of joining in 1973, and the public had more and better information available to it in 1975 than it had in 2016. Political union was plainly discussed. The EEC was still called the EEC, but all the stuff about sovereignty etc was on the table. It is a Leaver myth that this was not so.
No referendum sets in stone the will of the people, just as no election does. Democracy is a continuing thing, not a once and for all event.
No referendum sets in stone the will of the people, just as no election does. Democracy is a continuing thing, not a once and for all event.
Coolbanana said:
Well, that's not entirely true.
We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
So, yes, there will be a time when Data will support the drawing of parallels.
If another major EU country leaves during this time and it has a very negative effect upon the EU Project, then that would need to be taken into account and can point to any mitigation required for a UK not performing better than hoped - i.e, it would've happened anyway.
You'll never be able to tell. Any conclusions drawn will be full of ifs, buts and maybes that will be biased to a greater or lesser degree.We can point to Historical performance year on year in the EU, the good, the bad and the trajectory the UK was on immediately prior to the Referendum as it emerged from a Recession.
In 5-10 years time, we can compare that Data - and it will be. If the UK seems to be broadly similar in terms of average performance overall, then it will be deemed to have made no difference economically and Leavers can hail a success based upon whatever it was they Campaigned to Leave for most; apart from an improved economy, of course.
If the Data shows the UK as approaching and attaining new heights post Brexit, then Leavers can shout from the rooftops that it was all good and the correct decision regardless.
However, if after 5-10 years, the Data shows the UK economy as languishing somewhere near the low end of previous performance or worse, then the Critics will have their knives out asking if it was all worth it.
So, yes, there will be a time when Data will support the drawing of parallels.
If another major EU country leaves during this time and it has a very negative effect upon the EU Project, then that would need to be taken into account and can point to any mitigation required for a UK not performing better than hoped - i.e, it would've happened anyway.
After 44yrs in the EU/EEC/EC there was absolutely no conclusive proof that we were better off for that membership than we would have been without it. The member states are very different in make up and all have had differing fortunes over that time. Why will that situation change when we leave?
gothatway said:
Too many other, possibly more significant, factors which cannot be ignored. For example if Corbyn/Momentum were to win the next election, and in 5-10 years the economy had tanked, how will you know how much of that tanking to attribute to Brexit and how much to Corbyn ?
I think Corby is coming! But as a direct result of Brexit. His popularity will increase when the Tories fail to deliver the Brexit most Leavers want. He will offer to fix that but apply his special brand of extreme Socialism to it. This will make it all far worse. So, Corby and Brexit are intimately entwined; the vote to Leave leads to Corby.
Had we Remained, Corby wouldn't have won an election. I firmly believe that. He is only turning heads now because many do not believe the Tories are up to the task.
Once again, the Voters will gamble.
Funkycoldribena said:
Breadvan72 said:
Hey! Good news! Bigger than expected rebate from the EU. Oh... because of relatively poor economic performance measured against rest of EU. Still, Blighty yeah!
We get some of OUR money back...Woooo...
I'd be very happy if I rented a car, got all the benefits of driving it to my destination in comfort and then a rebate on top (Yes, some of MY money back!)
Coolbanana said:
I think Corby is coming! But as a direct result of Brexit. His popularity will increase when the Tories fail to deliver the Brexit most Leavers want. He will offer to fix that but apply his special brand of extreme Socialism to it. This will make it all far worse.
So, Corby and Brexit are intimately entwined; the vote to Leave leads to Corby.
Had we Remained, Corby wouldn't have won an election. I firmly believe that. He is only turning heads now because many do not believe the Tories are up to the task.
Once again, the Voters will gamble.
It's OK, the Tory Brexiteers have some Corbyn branded Project Fear all ready to go. They are utterly convinced that Remain's use of it won them the referendum, but that it will work in this case because they want it to.So, Corby and Brexit are intimately entwined; the vote to Leave leads to Corby.
Had we Remained, Corby wouldn't have won an election. I firmly believe that. He is only turning heads now because many do not believe the Tories are up to the task.
Once again, the Voters will gamble.
mx5nut said:
Funkycoldribena said:
Breadvan72 said:
Hey! Good news! Bigger than expected rebate from the EU. Oh... because of relatively poor economic performance measured against rest of EU. Still, Blighty yeah!
We get some of OUR money back...Woooo...
I'd be very happy if I rented a car, got all the benefits of driving it to my destination in comfort and then a rebate on top (Yes, some of MY money back!)
Tell you what, you and your neighbours pay me 35 quid a week,I'll slap some paint around the communal areas once a year and cut the lawns.
If its a particularly rainy year I'll give you a tenner back because I can't cut the lawns as much.You should be happy,right?
Oh and if you have a particularly good year at work,I'll send you an extra bill for 170 quid.
Sounds fair doesn't it?
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Tuesday 23 January 14:00
Funkycoldribena said:
I'll never understand this total obsession with belonging to a club hundreds of miles away unless you've got your fingers in the pie.
I'll never understand this total obsession with damaging our own country because some can't stand the idea of working more closely for mutual benefit with people who happen to have been born a few hundred miles away.Derek Smith said:
StevieBee said:
For all the pontification and opinions espoused by both sides of the debate, the simple fact is that we haven't a clue what the outcome will be.
Yet it was put to the public to make the decision. I'd liken it to voting to go on holiday but we don't know where. It might be a three week luxury all inclusive in the Bahamas. It might be a three week B&B stay in a Grimsby.
jsf said:
sidicks said:
Which they did. Just as the public voted to go in, in the first place.
The public did no such thing.So, whilst they may not have voted on the decision to join, they had the opportunity to vote once the scope of involvement had become known.
mx5nut said:
I'll never understand this total obsession with damaging our own country because some can't stand the idea of working more closely for mutual benefit with people who happen to have been born a few hundred miles away.
But you have no idea if its going to "damage the country", we haven't left yet.Pure speculation and you know it.
If we end up in mud huts,I'm fully willing to put my hands up and admit I was wrong,will you if we're doing fine?
I have a feeling you'll do what other posters have done and completely disappear or act completely dumb.
Breadvan72 said:
That old myth again! The plan for political union was clear at the time of joining in 1973, and the public had more and better information available to it in 1975 than it had in 2016. Political union was plainly discussed. The EEC was still called the EEC, but all the stuff about sovereignty etc was on the table. It is a Leaver myth that this was not so.
No referendum sets in stone the will of the people, just as no election does. Democracy is a continuing thing, not a once and for all event.
Totally and utterly wrong, The political elite may have had some idea that joining the EEC would eventually mean that the UK would become part of a political union. but the general public most certainly did not, most believed they were voting to join a trading bloc, and nothing more.No referendum sets in stone the will of the people, just as no election does. Democracy is a continuing thing, not a once and for all event.
If you had asked any thousand people in the street what the EU was in 1975, the vast majority would not have had a clue or an answer. There was no internet or many of the media communication outlets then, that we take for granted now, and even only a few channels on TV. so unless the almost every member of the public read ALL of ALL the newspapers of the day most would have any idea of what joining the EEC would mean for the UK.
Remainers whinge that people now don't know what leaving the EU would mean, but back in 1975 most people didn't have a clue what joining the the EEC would eventually mean. The only Myth is that you believe that the media was as widespread and as te simply it was notaccessible to the many n 1975 as it was in 2016. Quite simply it was not, or did you see hordes of miners and dock workers buying the Times or telegraph every single day to keep their finger on the political pulse in 1975?
As for democracy it has to be enacted, otherwise it is absolutely nothing at all, just hot air, or is democracy only democracy when it returns the result `you' wanted , but anything other than that, is not democracy and must be overturned or subverted?
Selective remainer democracy in action it would seem.
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