45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 4)
Discussion
When you consider what commitments the US had to NATO up until 1991, you would recognise that what they contribute now is a tiny fraction compared to then. The Americans were keener than anyone on the expected "Peace Dividend" that the end of the Cold War was supposed to bring. As an example of how much US involvement in Europe has dropped, just look at a list of the UK air bases they had in 1991 compared to now -
Lakenheath
Upper Heyford
Bentwaters
Woodbridge
Alconbury
Mildenhall
Greenham Common
Fairford
Now its just Mildenhall and Lakenheath - with Mildenhall set to close. Fairford is used for deployments only with no operational units actually based there.
Lakenheath
Upper Heyford
Bentwaters
Woodbridge
Alconbury
Mildenhall
Greenham Common
Fairford
Now its just Mildenhall and Lakenheath - with Mildenhall set to close. Fairford is used for deployments only with no operational units actually based there.
Dindoit said:
NATO members have a target, by 2024, to spend 2% of their GDP on defence.
USA is the biggest arms exporter so it’s in Trump’s interests to get everyone up to that 2% figure. The second biggest is Russia so it’s in Trump’s interest to get everyone up to that 2% figure.
EADS would like a word.USA is the biggest arms exporter so it’s in Trump’s interests to get everyone up to that 2% figure. The second biggest is Russia so it’s in Trump’s interest to get everyone up to that 2% figure.
As said above the only requirement is for 2% of spending so why would the EU make themselves dependant on someone else's supply chain when they can lob it all at Leo 2's, eurofighters, H&K guns, etc?
Other than reduced influence in Europe and increased competition for the death trade I don't see what America's getting out of this. I mean sure they could potentially reduce their military spending and spend it on schools, hospitals and infrastructure instead but... oh hang on I just saw a flying pig go past the window.
I thought Burtonwood was active till the 90s, but seems it was just a deployment thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Burtonwood
as an aside, one of the stories told to me by my mum's uncle, was of all the yank iron dumped in the MSC by the leaving yanks, all the harleys and whatnot, because it was a faff to import them back to the USA, cheaper to dump and buy new.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Burtonwood
as an aside, one of the stories told to me by my mum's uncle, was of all the yank iron dumped in the MSC by the leaving yanks, all the harleys and whatnot, because it was a faff to import them back to the USA, cheaper to dump and buy new.
Nanook said:
ou sont les biscuits said:
Basically, he's using the 2% as blackmail.
Doesn't change the fact that it's been the figure NATO quote for a long time now.This isn't something he's invented. It's just something he's brought up. He feels others aren't carrying their own weight, and he has a point. He's not complaining that in outright terms, the USA contributes more to defence than anyone else in NATO, that would be stupid.
He's complaining that no-one else is meeting the NATO quoted figure. He might be doing a lousy job of putting the point across, but I can't disagree much with the point.
_dobbo_ said:
All this NATO talk has me wondering, is Trump preparing to pull the USA out of NATO? He's just about clueless enough about the consequences of that to do it, and all this posturing has to be for something. Maybe he wants more defense spending, or maybe he's lining up his excuses...
He's only the president, withdrawing from NATO is beyond his pay grade, that's congress's decision and I'm not sure the GOP are quite that mental. Trump is a vehicle for the GOP to slash taxes, take control over women's wombs and ensure mentally ill people continue to have access to firearms. As soon as he stops providing that service to the GOP I can't see them having any qualms about feeding him to Mueller's lions. Up to the American public really, though it would help if the dems were producing more than tumbleweed.
Tartan Pixie said:
Other than reduced influence in Europe and increased competition for the death trade I don't see what America's getting out of this. I mean sure they could potentially reduce their military spending and spend it on schools, hospitals and infrastructure instead but... oh hang on I just saw a flying pig go past the window.
That’s the thing. Americans are happy to send money on their military, it’s almost a matter of pride. Western Europeans seem to prefer spending money on healthcare, education, and social welfare.Countdown said:
Tartan Pixie said:
Other than reduced influence in Europe and increased competition for the death trade I don't see what America's getting out of this. I mean sure they could potentially reduce their military spending and spend it on schools, hospitals and infrastructure instead but... oh hang on I just saw a flying pig go past the window.
That’s the thing. Americans are happy to send money on their military, it’s almost a matter of pride. Western Europeans seem to prefer spending money on healthcare, education, and social welfare.Tartan Pixie said:
Trump's technique of lashing out at everyone until an oppertunity opens up is finally producing results... for China and the EU: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-09...
Merkel's been in China securing trade deals ahead of yet another Sino European meeting in what has become something of a trend of late, European and Chinese people standing on a podium together to confirm their commitment to rules based international trade (aka rewriting the rules of global trade in their favour instead of America's favour).
The video accompanying the article is a good demonstration of what's happening, the presenters demonstrate pure arrogance in talking about Americans as the 'consumers of last resort' as if this is some god given situation that will last for eternity rather than a result of two world wars stacking the deck of global trade in America's favour. This arrogance runs right through American understanding of the world from top to bottom.
What they are missing is that China needs to find a way to increase internal consumption because the authority of the government relies on expanding the Chinese middle class and continuing economic growth, failure to do so is an existential threat to the Chinese government. Similarly Germany and the EU have a consumption related existential threat, the euro can not function properly unless Spain, Italy and other countries outside the northern manufacturing block have money to consume goods, nor can the problems with the euro be resolved while fiscal transfers are politically impossible due to it being seen by northern taxpayers as a subsidy towards the south.
The thing about existential threats is that they tend to get acted on. The incentive to strip America of its role as the global consumer of choice is extremely high and only really held back by two things, 1) Europe's long cultural and military ties with America, 2) Political and cultural barriers between the EU and China. Trump is going a good job of destroying 1 and it appears that the EU and China are prepared to put effort in to making 2 come about.
It would be a fools errand to predict where this is all headed but the direction of travel is clear, Make Europe and China Great Again at the expense of American consumers.
Have a Merkel's been in China securing trade deals ahead of yet another Sino European meeting in what has become something of a trend of late, European and Chinese people standing on a podium together to confirm their commitment to rules based international trade (aka rewriting the rules of global trade in their favour instead of America's favour).
The video accompanying the article is a good demonstration of what's happening, the presenters demonstrate pure arrogance in talking about Americans as the 'consumers of last resort' as if this is some god given situation that will last for eternity rather than a result of two world wars stacking the deck of global trade in America's favour. This arrogance runs right through American understanding of the world from top to bottom.
What they are missing is that China needs to find a way to increase internal consumption because the authority of the government relies on expanding the Chinese middle class and continuing economic growth, failure to do so is an existential threat to the Chinese government. Similarly Germany and the EU have a consumption related existential threat, the euro can not function properly unless Spain, Italy and other countries outside the northern manufacturing block have money to consume goods, nor can the problems with the euro be resolved while fiscal transfers are politically impossible due to it being seen by northern taxpayers as a subsidy towards the south.
The thing about existential threats is that they tend to get acted on. The incentive to strip America of its role as the global consumer of choice is extremely high and only really held back by two things, 1) Europe's long cultural and military ties with America, 2) Political and cultural barriers between the EU and China. Trump is going a good job of destroying 1 and it appears that the EU and China are prepared to put effort in to making 2 come about.
It would be a fools errand to predict where this is all headed but the direction of travel is clear, Make Europe and China Great Again at the expense of American consumers.
Great post.LoonyTunes said:
Countdown said:
Tartan Pixie said:
Other than reduced influence in Europe and increased competition for the death trade I don't see what America's getting out of this. I mean sure they could potentially reduce their military spending and spend it on schools, hospitals and infrastructure instead but... oh hang on I just saw a flying pig go past the window.
That’s the thing. Americans are happy to send money on their military, it’s almost a matter of pride. Western Europeans seem to prefer spending money on healthcare, education, and social welfare.According to my letter from HMRC from 2016-2017 my tax was spent as follows:
5.2% defence
25.3% welfare (excluding pensions)
12.9% state pensions
12.3% education
20.3% health
Hasn't the warm weather bought the trolls out again...
Nice to see the latest round of Tariffs trumps introducing doesn't affect Ivanka Trump’s Chinese-made products, I mean that's only $34 billion worth of Chinese goods....
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-china...
Nice to see the latest round of Tariffs trumps introducing doesn't affect Ivanka Trump’s Chinese-made products, I mean that's only $34 billion worth of Chinese goods....
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/trump-china...
This ones sneaking in today whilst trump is stiring the s
t at NATO. He's signed an Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will (and probably appointed).
Oh and add to that tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote to confirm Benczkowski as Asst AG. He would be in the line is succession should Rosenstein get fired The problem? He worked for Kremlin-linked Alfa Bank that the FBI was investigating as part of Russia probe
t at NATO. He's signed an Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will (and probably appointed).Oh and add to that tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote to confirm Benczkowski as Asst AG. He would be in the line is succession should Rosenstein get fired The problem? He worked for Kremlin-linked Alfa Bank that the FBI was investigating as part of Russia probe
Edited by Byker28i on Wednesday 11th July 16:24
LoonyTunes said:
Countdown said:
Tartan Pixie said:
Other than reduced influence in Europe and increased competition for the death trade I don't see what America's getting out of this. I mean sure they could potentially reduce their military spending and spend it on schools, hospitals and infrastructure instead but... oh hang on I just saw a flying pig go past the window.
That’s the thing. Americans are happy to send money on their military, it’s almost a matter of pride. Western Europeans seem to prefer spending money on healthcare, education, and social welfare.UK: 453 Canada: 158 France: 88 Germany: 57 Italy: 53 Poland: 44 Denmark: 43
Byker28i said:
This ones sneaking in today whilst trump is stiring the st at NATO. He's signed an Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will (and probably appointed).
Oh and add to that tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote to confirm Benczkowski as Asst AG. He would be in the line is succession should Rosenstein get fired The problem? He worked for Kremlin-linked Alfa Bank that the FBI was investigating as part of Russia probe
Is there no check or balance on this, can one of the houses not introduce a bill or something? This is full on banana republic stuff.t at NATO. He's signed an Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will (and probably appointed).Oh and add to that tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote to confirm Benczkowski as Asst AG. He would be in the line is succession should Rosenstein get fired The problem? He worked for Kremlin-linked Alfa Bank that the FBI was investigating as part of Russia probe
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