Where is the dark web, and what's on it?
Discussion
pip t said:
You're absolutely right - apologies.
Deep Web = unindexed 'normal' web
Dark Web = TOR/ Onion sites.
It's been a long old day......!
They seem to be regularly mixed up by journalists who imply that the deep/dark web is 500 times bigger than the open one for extra shock value. Deep Web = unindexed 'normal' web
Dark Web = TOR/ Onion sites.
It's been a long old day......!
That adds up to several extra solar systems of nonces and drug dealers.
pip t said:
Stuff and
It has many uses. Whistle blowers use it,
Best description I’ve read of it so far thanks.It has many uses. Whistle blowers use it,
So how do whistle blowers use it ( asking for a freind)
if when you access your email account that shows who you are I think you mentioned?
The sicko that got caught I belive used a identity like a forum name on here to sign off on his blackmail emails, he then used the same name to place an advert somewhere that’s how they found him apparently. How was he sending emails without being traced.
Secure email clients...
ProtonMail – protonirockerxow.onion
Torbox – torbox3uiot6wchz.onion
Bitmessage – bitmailendavkbec.onion, clearweb
Mail2Tor – mail2tor2zyjdctd.onion
RiseUp – nzh3fv6jc6jskki3.onion, clearweb
Cock.li (NSFW) – cockmailwwfvrtqj.onion, clearweb
Lelantos – lelantoss7bcnwbv.onion paid accounts only
Autistici – wi7qkxyrdpu5cmvr.onion, clearweb
AnonInbox – ncikv3i4qfzwy2qy.onion paid accounts only
VFEMail – 344c6kbnjnljjzlz.onion, clearweb
ProtonMail – protonirockerxow.onion
Torbox – torbox3uiot6wchz.onion
Bitmessage – bitmailendavkbec.onion, clearweb
Mail2Tor – mail2tor2zyjdctd.onion
RiseUp – nzh3fv6jc6jskki3.onion, clearweb
Cock.li (NSFW) – cockmailwwfvrtqj.onion, clearweb
Lelantos – lelantoss7bcnwbv.onion paid accounts only
Autistici – wi7qkxyrdpu5cmvr.onion, clearweb
AnonInbox – ncikv3i4qfzwy2qy.onion paid accounts only
VFEMail – 344c6kbnjnljjzlz.onion, clearweb
The rise and fall of Silk Road and Dread Pirate Roberts for those interested - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road_(marketp...
gizlaroc said:
The Dark web is simply the internet that is not on the regular URLs in laymans terms.
You are logging in with a hidden IP address, thus you can go onto market places with your identity hidden, and log into hidden markets like "silk Road" and "Dream Market" and buy what you want.
It is the 'dark' Amazon of the the internet.
So that's what's I've never quite understood. If I order a '10kg brick from Mexico', then how do they get it to me? Presumably it's a little more complex than waiting in for a DHL delivery!You are logging in with a hidden IP address, thus you can go onto market places with your identity hidden, and log into hidden markets like "silk Road" and "Dream Market" and buy what you want.
It is the 'dark' Amazon of the the internet.
Sending emails without being easily traceable doesn’t need the dark web - a hotmail account with bogus credentials accessed from public computers (with no cameras pointing at them) can do that easily.
Most low level criminality doesn’t need the sort of technology the dark web offers - because unpicking the trail of someone moderately careful requires more skill and time that most police forces have. Are they really going to raid Internet cafes to get cctv tapes for a low level druggie - probably not. But they would for someone selling guns (probably). And this is the whole point - how much effort do you want to go to in order to remain anonymous? The reason that everyone is in a flap about it is that the effort required is declining rapidly.
Simple example - Tor used to be a pig to install. You needed to be able compile stuff and know about networks. Now it comes with an installer. Click, done, you’re on. It used to be dog slow, as there were so few nodes - now there are loads of them and everyone has a 6 Mbit uplink, so loads of bandwidth. With Tor, you are using it to browse, but you are also a node for others to encrypt/decrypt. So while you are browsing, deals for guns, kiddy porn and Chinese dissidents could be flowing through your computer. You have no idea, you can’t see it, it’s all encrypted gibberish.
If you use a VPN, your service provider (and hence the U.K. gov) has no idea what you are doing. You could be watching Peppa Pig all day, or er, some other videos on Tor.
I remember in the early days of the whole music piracy debate some commentator likened the whole battle to a disease/antibiotic balance. If you fight the disease, it gets stronger over time. If no one has clamped down on music piracy, they’d all be using FTP sites and there would be no encryption in general use. That war has pushed real encryption into the casual mainstream, and now we have elements of communication that are pretty much unbreakable, and that’s without going into the debate about whether Facebook is a front for the CIA and they have the keys for snapchat already.
At the end of it, people get caught in the real world. A gangster sells guns on the dark web, but gets busted when he posts a photo of himself in a bathtub full of cash on the clear web.
Most low level criminality doesn’t need the sort of technology the dark web offers - because unpicking the trail of someone moderately careful requires more skill and time that most police forces have. Are they really going to raid Internet cafes to get cctv tapes for a low level druggie - probably not. But they would for someone selling guns (probably). And this is the whole point - how much effort do you want to go to in order to remain anonymous? The reason that everyone is in a flap about it is that the effort required is declining rapidly.
Simple example - Tor used to be a pig to install. You needed to be able compile stuff and know about networks. Now it comes with an installer. Click, done, you’re on. It used to be dog slow, as there were so few nodes - now there are loads of them and everyone has a 6 Mbit uplink, so loads of bandwidth. With Tor, you are using it to browse, but you are also a node for others to encrypt/decrypt. So while you are browsing, deals for guns, kiddy porn and Chinese dissidents could be flowing through your computer. You have no idea, you can’t see it, it’s all encrypted gibberish.
If you use a VPN, your service provider (and hence the U.K. gov) has no idea what you are doing. You could be watching Peppa Pig all day, or er, some other videos on Tor.
I remember in the early days of the whole music piracy debate some commentator likened the whole battle to a disease/antibiotic balance. If you fight the disease, it gets stronger over time. If no one has clamped down on music piracy, they’d all be using FTP sites and there would be no encryption in general use. That war has pushed real encryption into the casual mainstream, and now we have elements of communication that are pretty much unbreakable, and that’s without going into the debate about whether Facebook is a front for the CIA and they have the keys for snapchat already.
At the end of it, people get caught in the real world. A gangster sells guns on the dark web, but gets busted when he posts a photo of himself in a bathtub full of cash on the clear web.
I went to a cyber security day some time back and one of the sessions demo'd the "dark web" via Tor. It looked a bit like the early days of the internet to me, when you went to bulletin boards you already knew about and followed links around, rather than having decent search engines. He showed us some for sale sites where you could buy stuff like 100 credit card numbers or even hire an assassin.
deckster said:
So that's what's I've never quite understood. If I order a '10kg brick from Mexico', then how do they get it to me? Presumably it's a little more complex than waiting in for a DHL delivery!
A 10 kilo brick maybe, but smaller amounts get shipped all the time. Millions of parcels arrive in the U.K. every day - some are x-rayed, hardly any are opened. Simple example - I ordered some brass bullet cases from the US. Perfectly legal to do. If someone had x-rayed them the parcel would come up as “bullets”. It wasn’t opened, so it hadn’t been x-rayed. Yes, there is a chance that your parcel would be caught. And then it largely comes down to how careful you have been. You get a big parcel of drugs delivered, and plod are waiting outside. Did you deliver it to a grotty block of flats that you have access to rather than your home address? Did you use a false name? Did you use bitcoin to pay from it using an anonymous wallet .... or did you do a fx transfer from your current account. Etc.....
Pesty said:
Best description I’ve read of it so far thanks.
So how do whistle blowers use it ( asking for a freind)
if when you access your email account that shows who you are I think you mentioned?
The sicko that got caught I belive used a identity like a forum name on here to sign off on his blackmail emails, he then used the same name to place an advert somewhere that’s how they found him apparently. How was he sending emails without being traced.
So whistle blowers could use it in a few different ways, depending on what they're doing.So how do whistle blowers use it ( asking for a freind)
if when you access your email account that shows who you are I think you mentioned?
The sicko that got caught I belive used a identity like a forum name on here to sign off on his blackmail emails, he then used the same name to place an advert somewhere that’s how they found him apparently. How was he sending emails without being traced.
You could use a 'secure drop' - this is kinda like an open dropbox, only run over TOR, and therefore anonymising. You connect via TOR, upload your files of whatever you're sharing to it, job done. NY Times has one I believe, as does the Washington Post and the Guardian. Alternatively there are secure emails available - someone else has posted a list of them above. There's also secure chat networks - think the old MSN Messenger only anonymous. TorChat is one (Or used to be, don't know if it still exists. If you sign up to these while using TOR, and are very careful not to reveal anything about yourself, you can remain anonymous.
You could create anonymous 'normal' emails, like Hotmail or Gmail, but this is becoming increasingly difficult as the majority require a phone number during the sign up. So unless you also have a phone number not tied to you, that would reveal who you are. Also, obviously Gmail scans emails, as I would have thought do many of the other big providers, so unless you use your own encryption anything you send/receive can be read.
I haven't read the details of how that pretty depraved guy got caught, but yes, using the same forum name across different services (TOR and non TOR) will easily get you de-anonymised. It's the kind of mistake that gets most people using it illegally caught. Even your writing style, specific words you often use, the way you sign off things can get you identified if someone is trying hard enough. For example if I always signed off my posts on here with 'Lots of sparkles!' and then absentmindedly signed off a post on a dark net forum with that, the connection can be made. The human element is by far the weakest element of any security.
Edited - sorry, your email question was more specific. Yes, if you access your normal personal email over `TOR' you are obviously no longer anonymous to that site as you've already given it all your information. If you use an email address you've created anonymously, you could use that and remain anonymous.
'Rxe' has explained things well on his posts too - just one point - using the TOR browser to search does not automatically make you a TOR 'node' that other peoples traffic flows through. You have to set yourself up specifically to be one of those. Using just the TOR browser is just the same as using any other browser, just anonymous.
Edited by pip t on Tuesday 20th February 08:58
Looking at the list of agencies involved with tracking down the guy who was convicted yesterday I see that the Oz police were involved. They took over a known dark web s
t hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.
t hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.gizlaroc said:
There are only 2 type of people that would use it, those that are doing something wrong, or those that are trying to tell about people doing something wrong.
People who are doing something the authorities where they live don't want them to do. Whether it's something wrong depends on how moral those authorities are. I think generally in western democracies, it's people up to no good. tankplanker said:
Looking at the list of agencies involved with tracking down the guy who was convicted yesterday I see that the Oz police were involved. They took over a known dark web st hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.
Indeed - a very in depth article about that here:t hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.https://www.vg.no/spesial/2017/undercover-darkweb/...
deckster said:
So that's what's I've never quite understood. If I order a '10kg brick from Mexico', then how do they get it to me? Presumably it's a little more complex than waiting in for a DHL delivery!
Good ol' Dream Market - the best one out there currently.There are few things better than the postman dropping a jiffybag containing a vac-sealed baggie of a couple grams of one's drug of choice through the letterbox.
Infinitely better than dealing with some geezer in a pub selling something that's cut to s
t.It's all very sophisticated with vendor reviews enabling one to make an informed purchase. It's obviously not without risk but works better than many would initially think.
I had a shufty about a few years ago; overlaying a VPN, use anon bitcoin from 3rd party escrow, swapping encryption keys etc - quite a palaver but an interesting process. As far as I could suss out, the market places had 'feedback' for sellers so you knew (as far as you can) that some people were genuine but I can imagine that a lot of the more dubious services - 'hitman for hire' etc - were either stings, fantasists or cons. To get to anything very illegal, child porn, bomb making and such, it didn't pop out at you - you would really have to delve deep into it and get into that circle I'd imagine. I can imagine it being a good tool of those that want to store or transfer information secretly, particularly from oppressive regimes or sensitive human rights related business etc.
Otherwise it just seemed like the internet from the nineties.
Looking up '420' on Craigslist shows how even the surface internet marketplaces can be used perfidiously if you know where/how to look.
[Caveat - this was a curiosity driven exercise for academic purposes!]
Otherwise it just seemed like the internet from the nineties.
Looking up '420' on Craigslist shows how even the surface internet marketplaces can be used perfidiously if you know where/how to look.
[Caveat - this was a curiosity driven exercise for academic purposes!]
deckster said:
gizlaroc said:
The Dark web is simply the internet that is not on the regular URLs in laymans terms.
You are logging in with a hidden IP address, thus you can go onto market places with your identity hidden, and log into hidden markets like "silk Road" and "Dream Market" and buy what you want.
It is the 'dark' Amazon of the the internet.
So that's what's I've never quite understood. If I order a '10kg brick from Mexico', then how do they get it to me? Presumably it's a little more complex than waiting in for a DHL delivery!You are logging in with a hidden IP address, thus you can go onto market places with your identity hidden, and log into hidden markets like "silk Road" and "Dream Market" and buy what you want.
It is the 'dark' Amazon of the the internet.
t!!!!? You don't suppose DHL has been delivering 10kg bricks of Mexico's finest to KFCdo you? Just imagine the looks of disapointment when some poor f
kers open 10kg parcels of raw chicken.
pip t said:
tankplanker said:
Looking at the list of agencies involved with tracking down the guy who was convicted yesterday I see that the Oz police were involved. They took over a known dark web st hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.
Indeed - a very in depth article about that here:t hole and kept it running for a while so they could collect evidence to prosecute a number of people unrelated to the running of the forum. The Oz police have been given significant funding for this, and as the rules seem to be lax in Oz, they have ended up running this sort of operation for a number of other countries including the UK.https://www.vg.no/spesial/2017/undercover-darkweb/...
Interestingly, a bit like the silk road podcast I linked on the first page, it's always the simplest human errors that results in these criminals being caught.
pip t said:
Indeed - a very in depth article about that here:
https://www.vg.no/spesial/2017/undercover-darkweb/...
That's a fascinating insight, thanks. https://www.vg.no/spesial/2017/undercover-darkweb/...
to be truly anonymous on the net it's best to use some kind of Anonymous Unix based OS. These are loaded off a USB rather than on your hard drive as it's easier, should the fuzz be closing in, to get rid of a usb stick rather than your laptop. I had a play a while ago with these things and it's encrypted up to stupid levels and passwords have to be at least 32 characters long. There is zero to no chance of anyone getting info out it.
There has also been cases where the people that run TOR routers/bridges have been forced, probably to save themselves from prosecution, to hand over all the information they have i.e. logs to enforcement agencies. I imagine this is how most people get caught.
As mentioned all sorts of people use it, some for good, some for bad. For example, Anonymous used it to help activists get info out of Egypt during the beginning of uprising.
Just don't login to anything you normally use. don't stream and stay away from dodgy IRC chat.
Forgot to mention, last itme I used TOR/Anonynix google wasn't happy about it, You have to use the TOR search engine. Just be very careful with what you type
There has also been cases where the people that run TOR routers/bridges have been forced, probably to save themselves from prosecution, to hand over all the information they have i.e. logs to enforcement agencies. I imagine this is how most people get caught.
As mentioned all sorts of people use it, some for good, some for bad. For example, Anonymous used it to help activists get info out of Egypt during the beginning of uprising.
Just don't login to anything you normally use. don't stream and stay away from dodgy IRC chat.
Forgot to mention, last itme I used TOR/Anonynix google wasn't happy about it, You have to use the TOR search engine. Just be very careful with what you type
Edited by Never you mind on Tuesday 20th February 13:47
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