Is this the last tory government
Discussion
Rovinghawk said:
If labour get into power I might as well give up work as it won't be worth the effort. This might not benefit the economy.
Now multiply by thousands of others who feel the same.
Running a small business, employing a small number of people, and being neither rich enough nor old enough to retire, I'll be extremely vulnerable to a good McDonnelling. Now multiply by thousands of others who feel the same.
John knows that just as people who own houses are rich, so are people with small businesses. And so are people with stable marriages and families. Rich Rich Rich. I'm all three, so I'm going to get hammered. Despite not actually being rich, or anywhere close.
When he hits us, it might well finish the business. So we'll all go on the dole and enjoy the largesse of his fairer society.
otolith said:
SpeckledJim said:
(Answer, John's view of who is rich is very different to most of modern Britain's idea of the same. Got a house? You're rich.)
And everybody else's idea of who is rich is "people who are richer than me", which is why soaking them is so popular.70% of today's Labour voters haven't realised (because John's clever enough not to spell it out) that they are living the high life above John's dotted line where only greed and luxury exists. Which is, in my estimation of his estimation, a household income of about £35k and above.
All my Labour supporting friends exceed that level, and all of them are looking forward to improvements in their standard of living once Uncle John starts 'hitting the rich'.
They'll be staggered, in the weeks after the election, when it quickly becomes apparent that 'the rich' includes them. That he's not interested in their mortgage or their family commitments, their two new cars or their three foreign holidays a year, he just wants a lot more of what they've got, and he's going to take it.
SpeckledJim said:
True that.
70% of today's Labour voters haven't realised (because John's clever enough not to spell it out) that they are living the high life above John's dotted line where only greed and luxury exists. Which is, in my estimation of his estimation, a household income of about £35k and above.
All my Labour supporting friends exceed that level, and all of them are looking forward to improvements in their standard of living once Uncle John starts 'hitting the rich'.
They'll be staggered, in the weeks after the election, when it quickly becomes apparent that 'the rich' includes them. That he's not interested in their mortgage or their family commitments, their two new cars or their three foreign holidays a year, he just wants a lot more of what they've got, and he's going to take it.
I have watched a few YT vids on Venuezuela, and there are lots of them that include ex lefties who thought the same regarding taxing the rich more, and taking over the nasty corporations to spread the wealth. Now, they all eat the same zoo animals, pets and wildlife to stay alive - That's equality of outcome right there. Worked out really well.70% of today's Labour voters haven't realised (because John's clever enough not to spell it out) that they are living the high life above John's dotted line where only greed and luxury exists. Which is, in my estimation of his estimation, a household income of about £35k and above.
All my Labour supporting friends exceed that level, and all of them are looking forward to improvements in their standard of living once Uncle John starts 'hitting the rich'.
They'll be staggered, in the weeks after the election, when it quickly becomes apparent that 'the rich' includes them. That he's not interested in their mortgage or their family commitments, their two new cars or their three foreign holidays a year, he just wants a lot more of what they've got, and he's going to take it.
The leaders are very rich, though....
SpeckledJim said:
True that.
70% of today's Labour voters haven't realised (because John's clever enough not to spell it out) that they are living the high life above John's dotted line where only greed and luxury exists. Which is, in my estimation of his estimation, a household income of about £35k and above.
All my Labour supporting friends exceed that level, and all of them are looking forward to improvements in their standard of living once Uncle John starts 'hitting the rich'.
They'll be staggered, in the weeks after the election, when it quickly becomes apparent that 'the rich' includes them. That he's not interested in their mortgage or their family commitments, their two new cars or their three foreign holidays a year, he just wants a lot more of what they've got, and he's going to take it.
The baseline of poverty to the Facebook-mum level of the politically literate seems to be nurses ("share and like if you think nurses are heroes" etc.), and yet a two-earner household with one a nurse would be comfortably in the rich category, and thus apparently in need of a soaking. 70% of today's Labour voters haven't realised (because John's clever enough not to spell it out) that they are living the high life above John's dotted line where only greed and luxury exists. Which is, in my estimation of his estimation, a household income of about £35k and above.
All my Labour supporting friends exceed that level, and all of them are looking forward to improvements in their standard of living once Uncle John starts 'hitting the rich'.
They'll be staggered, in the weeks after the election, when it quickly becomes apparent that 'the rich' includes them. That he's not interested in their mortgage or their family commitments, their two new cars or their three foreign holidays a year, he just wants a lot more of what they've got, and he's going to take it.
But it's ok, because then you can just put taxes up on the rich to pay the nurses' salaries... <repeat cycle until the IMF are called in>
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
don'tbesilly said:
Can you point out in the EU referendum bill where it states a required margin be needed to declare a winning side?
We're not debating what the result of the referendum was. No-one's debating who won.The debate is about what does winning mean.
And we need to be pragmatic. It would be suicidal for the government to push for a hard Brexit.
fblm said:
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/
I've read it. Point out where it refers to bringing down capitalism?
Mentioning McDonnell's grandstanding is no more relevant to their actual policies than some of the rubbish that comes out of Boris's mouth is to Tory policy (and I'd add that McDonnell is no fool and is already starting to woo businesses and the City). I'm a Conservative voter (or was) but the Tories have lost their way completely, and society is getting more and more unfair. I felt it was worth reading the Labour manifesto to see for myself what they actually stand for. I'd urge anyone to do likewise.
If someone like me is f
ked off with the current government then the Tories have got a problem. If I'm even contemplating voting Labour then they've got a massive problem. The scare stories don't bother me. That st just doesn't work except on the echo-chamber that is NPE.oyster said:
We're not debating what the result of the referendum was. No-one's debating who won.
The debate is about what does winning mean.
And we need to be pragmatic. It would be suicidal for the government to push for a hard Brexit.
Equally suicidal to push for a non-Brexit, with the bonus of alienating core voters.The debate is about what does winning mean.
And we need to be pragmatic. It would be suicidal for the government to push for a hard Brexit.
The result of the Referendum was an expectation that the government would deliver on the Referendum. Outside of the nutty ends of the spectrum, most people expected a pragmatic deal, and expected it would take the full two years to get there.
They don't have to push for a hard Brexit - they have to push for something that is in the interest of the country as a whole, not the vested interests of a few. Both hard Brexit and Remain-at-any-cost Brexit are serving vested interests, not the general population. A good faith negotiation was exactly what was needed.
easytiger123 said:
Mentioning McDonnell's grandstanding is no more relevant to their actual policies
Potential chancellor wants to smash the economy & it's not relevant? Please get real.easytiger123 said:
society is getting more and more unfair.
Is 'fair' where everyone gets the same or is 'fair' where those who work harder get more? Or is your 'fair' something completely different?'Fair' can mean whatever the individual thinks it means and has no basis in government.
I'm about £500 a month net worse off since the Tories came to power just with their changes to higher income/tax free allowance (I've included no inflation or any other increased costs/taxes, I'd expect that to have at least doubled the number), and child benefit, so they certainly haven't helped me even maintain the status quo. Neither party gives me any confidence at all that I'm not seen as a soft target.
Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can fk off.
Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can f
k off.tankplanker said:
I'm about £500 a month net worse off since the Tories came to power just with their changes to higher income/tax free allowance (I've included no inflation or any other increased costs/taxes, I'd expect that to have at least doubled the number), and child benefit, so they certainly haven't helped me even maintain the status quo. Neither party gives me any confidence at all that I'm not seen as a soft target.
Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can fk off.
What you need to ask yourself is would you have been better off if they hadn't come to power.Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can f
k off.easytiger123 said:
fblm said:
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/
I've read it. Point out where it refers to bringing down capitalism?
Mentioning McDonnell's grandstanding is no more relevant to their actual policies than some of the rubbish that comes out of Boris's mouth is to Tory policy (and I'd add that McDonnell is no fool and is already starting to woo businesses and the City). I'm a Conservative voter (or was) but the Tories have lost their way completely, and society is getting more and more unfair. I felt it was worth reading the Labour manifesto to see for myself what they actually stand for. I'd urge anyone to do likewise.
If someone like me is f
ked off with the current government then the Tories have got a problem. If I'm even contemplating voting Labour then they've got a massive problem. The scare stories don't bother me. That st just doesn't work except on the echo-chamber that is NPE.Look at the history of the men in charge. They're in their sixties and seventies. Their die is cast. They can't and won't change. Any wooing they're doing is entirely and transparently cynical.
They don't like innovation, commerce, profit, enterprise or wealth. Which means they don't like the things that create and sustain jobs, and they don't like the main reason most of us have to get out of bed in the morning.
What possible benefit can result from reducing the reasons for normal people to get out of bed in the morning?
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
Mentioning McDonnell's grandstanding is no more relevant to their actual policies
Potential chancellor wants to smash the economy & it's not relevant? Please get real.easytiger123 said:
society is getting more and more unfair.
Is 'fair' where everyone gets the same or is 'fair' where those who work harder get more? Or is your 'fair' something completely different?'Fair' can mean whatever the individual thinks it means and has no basis in government.
It's not fair that many companies pay minimal tax relative to their profits, it's not fair that there are lord knows how many people on zero hours contracts, who can't get a mortgage, who can be let go without compensation, and who are not entitled to a single day of paid holiday or sick pay. It's not fair that more and more wealth is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Whether you like it or not people, rich and poor, are recognising it isn't fair and unless a political party can address some of these issue they are going to get slaughtered by the electorate.
tankplanker said:
I'm about £500 a month net worse off since the Tories came to power just with their changes to higher income/tax free allowance (I've included no inflation or any other increased costs/taxes, I'd expect that to have at least doubled the number), and child benefit, so they certainly haven't helped me even maintain the status quo. Neither party gives me any confidence at all that I'm not seen as a soft target.
Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can fk off.
Well you just wait for McDonnell to get his hands on the treasury and HMRC that £500 will look like a gift, plus at least Sterling is still worth something at the moment. Obviously there are a lot of people far worse off than me, but I should be a bread and butter voter for the Tories but instead their polices have been just as bad as Labours on my personal finances and they can f
k off.oyster said:
don'tbesilly said:
Can you point out in the EU referendum bill where it states a required margin be needed to declare a winning side?
We're not debating what the result of the referendum was. No-one's debating who won.The debate is about what does winning mean.
And we need to be pragmatic. It would be suicidal for the government to push for a hard Brexit.
ks thought up after the event to try and muddy the waters. It was one of the reasons I was umming and ahhing about which way to vote, in fairness since that time I've gone hardcore anti-EU and were there another vote tomorrow I'd not even need to think about in or out. Johnnytheboy said:
What you need to ask yourself is would you have been better off if they hadn't come to power.
On multiple levels at a personal level yes I would, as Labour would have still been in power, so no Corbyn as the Blairites would have still had a majority, no Brexit as a referendum was a UKIP and Tory promise (lack of freedom of movement and trade makes my job harder, its still uncertain if I will or will not be allowed to work in the EU without permits etc.), and I doubt I'd have had as much additional tax by a Blairite Labour as much as I actually have been under the Tories. easytiger123 said:
If you don't have an innate sense of what and what is not fair then there's little hope, and to assume it doesn't affect politics is I'd suggest to miss one of the fundamental tenets of any free society.
It's not fair that many companies pay minimal tax relative to their profits, it's not fair that there are lord knows how many people on zero hours contracts, who can't get a mortgage, who can be let go without compensation, and who are not entitled to a single day of paid holiday or sick pay. It's not fair that more and more wealth is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Whether you like it or not people, rich and poor, are recognising it isn't fair and unless a political party can address some of these issue they are going to get slaughtered by the electorate.
Is it more or less fair if, faced with a demand to convert a ZHC to a 'proper' job, a business decides it can't afford to do that, and thus removes the contract altogether?It's not fair that many companies pay minimal tax relative to their profits, it's not fair that there are lord knows how many people on zero hours contracts, who can't get a mortgage, who can be let go without compensation, and who are not entitled to a single day of paid holiday or sick pay. It's not fair that more and more wealth is being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Whether you like it or not people, rich and poor, are recognising it isn't fair and unless a political party can address some of these issue they are going to get slaughtered by the electorate.
Has the world, for the person who used to have a ZHC and now doesn't have a job at all, got more or less fair?
Complicated.
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