Richard Dawkins PH prophet

Author
Discussion

Funk

26,254 posts

208 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
otolith said:
Funk said:
otolith said:
It's a fair point that these massive collective endeavours - whether driven by religion or by government or by philanthropy - represent effort that could have been used to improve lives in other ways and wealth that was collected in some way that was inequitable. Whether we're talking about Egyptian pyramids, cathedrals, mosques, royal palaces, opera houses, football stadia, skyscrapers or Bugatti Veyrons. But would the world be a better place without them?
As Derek mentions above, there's a massive difference to buildings which were built for profit (football stadia, skyscrapers, Veyrons etc) using private funding etc and buildings such as churches, mosques etc which were built for showing 'the glory of xyz deity' etc, often at huge physical and financial cost to the poorest at the time.
I'm not sure how profit matters. People build these buildings because someone has the power to make it so. The craftsmen and labourers are paid. The money is acquired by a range of means - rich men, the church's own fundraising, kings using public funding. So yes, there is the question of how sufficient wealth to pay for a cathedral or a mosque gets concentrated in the hands of the men who make it so. Well, how does sufficient wealth to build something like Trump Tower get into the hands of someone like Trump? How does enough money to build the Millennium Dome get into the hands of Blair? Is a monument to a rich man's ego inherently more noble than one to his theist delusions?

Humans do lots of things which are fundamentally pointless other than that someone is willing or can be made to pay for them to happen. How many of us spend our lives in jobs which are ultimately just as pointless as constructing a piece of architecture?
The profit wasn't the point, it was more the point it was built using private investment and sold to someone. A church or mosque is built using funds from the public (sure, given but in the past it was most likely given through coercion or FUD about 'the afterlife' which your average person at the time was in no position to argue with...). Trump (or any other developer) isn't using funds gleaned from members of the public who've been told that if they don't tithe the money the Devil will take them to Hell... A property such as a block of flats or office buildings are built for a purpose where the space is sold or leased, used daily etc. Most churches stand empty, doing nothing.

My point is relatively simple; religions 'scare' money out of people to feather their own nests. People building office blocks or hotels use earned money or investment from financial institutions to create wealth (which may also be for others as well as the developer, eg. a person or company buying offices to lease etc). The two aren't comparable.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Indeed, we do have Islam to thank for taking care of Greek and Roman science and philosophy while the West was bumbling around in the dark.

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Ireland, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
Truly, it is a miracle from God himself that you were born in the correct place, and the correct time, with the correct influences and surroundings to find yourself in the only true religion.

Amen brother.

ciege

424 posts

98 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Ireland, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
Truly, it is a miracle from God himself that you were born in the correct place, and the correct time, with the correct influences and surroundings to find yourself in the only true religion.

Amen brother.
But I'm a Christian I do believe it's a miracle...

D- for a piss poor wind up attempt



Burwood

18,709 posts

245 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Island, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
His bks hehe I assume you include his work on evolutionary Biology?

May I just point out that what you said in the opening lines (3rd) is fking bks. He can't prove his lack of faith? Come again? I assure you he can.

The old 'you can't prove god doesn't exist' line is peddled by thick people who don't realise you can't disprove something that doesn't exist. It's not possible.

Reminds me of my FIL who scoffed at a scientist who claimed Dinosaurs did not live with humans. To which he replied, how would they know, were they there. I looked at him like, I hope your daughter got more brains from her mother.

Edited by Burwood on Wednesday 18th July 19:06


Edited by Burwood on Wednesday 18th July 19:09

Burwood

18,709 posts

245 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
ciege said:
amusingduck said:
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Ireland, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
Truly, it is a miracle from God himself that you were born in the correct place, and the correct time, with the correct influences and surroundings to find yourself in the only true religion.

Amen brother.
But I'm a Christian I do believe it's a miracle...

D- for a piss poor wind up attempt
it's not a wind up. biggrin

I think he is saying that you wouldn't be a Christian if you born in a number of other countries. You could have been born muslim, jew, catholic etc etc. Im not going to debate though smile

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
ciege said:
But I'm a Christian I do believe it's a miracle...

D- for a piss poor wind up attempt
Let's narrow the suffering right down to one category, genocide. Your God sat idly and watched these genocides:

2 Pre–World War I
2.1 Before 1490
2.1.1 Neanderthals
2.1.2 Ancient and medieval gendercides
2.1.3 Destruction of Carthage
2.1.4 Anasazi
2.1.5 mongol Empire
2.1.6 Tamerlane
2.1.7 Wu Hu and Jie
2.2 1490 to 1914
2.2.1 Africa
2.2.1.1 Congo
2.2.1.2 French conquest of Algeria
2.2.1.3 German South West Africa
2.2.1.4 Zulu Kingdom
2.2.2 Americas
2.2.2.1 Argentina
2.2.2.2 Canada
2.2.2.3 Haiti
2.2.2.4 Mexico
2.2.2.4.1 Yaquis
2.2.2.5 Newfoundland
2.2.2.6 Peru
2.2.2.7 United States
2.2.3 Asia
2.2.3.1 Afghanistan
2.2.3.2 British rule of India and elsewhere
2.2.3.3 Dzungar genocide
2.2.3.4 Japanese colonization of Hokkaido
2.2.3.5 Ottoman Empire
2.2.3.6 Russian Empire
2.2.3.6.1 Circassians
2.2.3.6.2 Siberia
2.2.3.6.3 Kyrgyz
2.2.3.7 Vietnam
2.2.4 Europe
2.2.4.1 France
2.2.4.2 13th-century extermination of the Cathars
2.2.4.3 Huguenot persecutions
2.2.4.4 Vendee
2.2.4.5 Ireland
2.2.4.5.1 War of the Three Kingdoms
2.2.4.6 British Empire
2.2.4.6.1 Great Irish Famine
2.2.4.6.2 Oceania
2.2.4.6.3 Australia
2.2.4.6.4 New Zealand
3 20th century (from World War I)
3.1 World War I through World War II
3.1.1 Ottoman Empire/Turkey
3.1.1.1 Armenians
3.1.1.2 Assyrians
3.1.1.3 Greeks
3.1.1.4 Dersim Kurds
3.1.2 Kingdom of Iraq
3.2 Soviet Union
3.2.1 Decossackization
3.2.2 Holodomor
3.2.3 Poles in the Soviet Union
3.2.4 Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachay and Kalmyks
3.2.5 Deportations of Baltic people
3.2.6 Crimean Tatars
3.3 Japan
3.4 Dominican Republic
3.5 Republic of China and Tibet
3.6 Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe
3.6.1 The Holocaust
3.6.2 Non-Jewish victims
3.6.2.1 Slavic population in the Soviet Union
3.6.2.2 Croatia
3.6.2.3 Poland
3.6.2.4 Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
3.6.2.5 Romani people
3.6.2.6 Disabled and mentally ill
3.7 Post–World War II Central and Eastern Europe
3.7.1 Ethnic cleansing of Germans
3.8 Partition of India
3.9 1951 onwards
3.9.1 Australia 1900–1969
3.9.2 Zanzibar
3.9.3 Algeria
3.9.4 Cambodia 1975-1979
3.9.5 Guatemala 1981–1983
3.9.6 Bangladesh Liberation War Genocide of 1971
3.9.7 Burundi 1972 and 1993
3.9.8 North Korea
3.9.9 Equatorial Guinea
3.9.10 Indonesia
3.9.10.1 Indonesian killings of 1965–66
3.9.10.2 West New Guinea/West Papua
3.9.10.3 East Timor
3.9.11 Bangladesh
3.9.11.1 Biharis
3.9.11.2 Indigenous Chakmas
3.9.12 Argentina
3.9.13 Ethiopia
3.9.14 Baathist Iraq
3.9.14.1 Genocide of Kurds
3.9.14.2 Marsh Arabs
3.9.15 People's Republic of China
3.9.15.1 Tibet
3.9.16 Brazil
3.9.17 Democratic Republic of the Congo
3.9.17.1 Hutus
3.9.18 Somalia
3.9.18.1 1988 - 1991 Isaaq genocide
3.9.18.2 2007 Bantu attacks
3.9.19 Sri Lanka
3.9.20 Myanmar
3.9.21 ISIL


Next time you speak to him, can you pass on a message? Tell him to get fked smile

Many thanks

RTB

8,273 posts

257 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Ireland, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
Nerve touched....

If only organised religion could take a similar pragmatic approach to others views. Alas, in a great many parts of the world saying I don't believe in God will get you killed. The worst Dawkins does is write a few books.



Funk

26,254 posts

208 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
ciege said:
Dawkins is more religious than me and I go to church.

He's a fking publicity we and anyone who feeds him is a total fking idiot.

I can't obviously prove any of my faith, nor can he prove any of his lack.

Difference is I couldn't give two fks whether anyone on an internet forum or real life believes me or not.

He needs to make a living from the mugs who buy his bks!

Suggesting the world may or may not be better of with or without is as old as the hills, believe him if you want or not doesn't matter to anyone what you believe and ultimately that's something Dawkins and his disciples will have to cope with.

And don't give me any st about relegious people blowing each other up someone somewhere always wants to kill someone else, if it was Islam it'd be Northern Ireland, or Poland, or cotton, or silk or something else.

Fact is we're all different but Dawkins fking self righteous smugness and his fawning fking fans are a thousand times more annoying that the street preacher who tells me I'm going to Hell without fking asking me all about the service I've just enjoyed the previous day.

And yes, I'm feeding an obvious trolls post!
Truly, it is a miracle from God himself that you were born in the correct place, and the correct time, with the correct influences and surroundings to find yourself in the only true religion.

Amen brother.
Absofkinglutely. Had ciege been born in the Middle East he'd be facing Mecca several times a day and chanting "Allahu Akbar".

Also completely agree about the bullst of making someone prove a negative - that's not the way things work.

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Digga said:
FWIW Grand Mosque in Muscat, Oman:
Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. Thanks.

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
Blue Mosque, Istanbul
I keep being told that Istanbul is an amazing City to visit - what's the safety situation like now?

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Funk said:
otolith said:
Funk said:
otolith said:
It's a fair point that these massive collective endeavours - whether driven by religion or by government or by philanthropy - represent effort that could have been used to improve lives in other ways and wealth that was collected in some way that was inequitable. Whether we're talking about Egyptian pyramids, cathedrals, mosques, royal palaces, opera houses, football stadia, skyscrapers or Bugatti Veyrons. But would the world be a better place without them?
As Derek mentions above, there's a massive difference to buildings which were built for profit (football stadia, skyscrapers, Veyrons etc) using private funding etc and buildings such as churches, mosques etc which were built for showing 'the glory of xyz deity' etc, often at huge physical and financial cost to the poorest at the time.
I'm not sure how profit matters. People build these buildings because someone has the power to make it so. The craftsmen and labourers are paid. The money is acquired by a range of means - rich men, the church's own fundraising, kings using public funding. So yes, there is the question of how sufficient wealth to pay for a cathedral or a mosque gets concentrated in the hands of the men who make it so. Well, how does sufficient wealth to build something like Trump Tower get into the hands of someone like Trump? How does enough money to build the Millennium Dome get into the hands of Blair? Is a monument to a rich man's ego inherently more noble than one to his theist delusions?

Humans do lots of things which are fundamentally pointless other than that someone is willing or can be made to pay for them to happen. How many of us spend our lives in jobs which are ultimately just as pointless as constructing a piece of architecture?
The profit wasn't the point, it was more the point it was built using private investment and sold to someone. A church or mosque is built using funds from the public (sure, given but in the past it was most likely given through coercion or FUD about 'the afterlife' which your average person at the time was in no position to argue with...). Trump (or any other developer) isn't using funds gleaned from members of the public who've been told that if they don't tithe the money the Devil will take them to Hell... A property such as a block of flats or office buildings are built for a purpose where the space is sold or leased, used daily etc. Most churches stand empty, doing nothing.

My point is relatively simple; religions 'scare' money out of people to feather their own nests. People building office blocks or hotels use earned money or investment from financial institutions to create wealth (which may also be for others as well as the developer, eg. a person or company buying offices to lease etc). The two aren't comparable.
Yes, a lot of projects are built by extorting money from people with the dubious chance of a wonderful future if only they spend a few quid now.

But enough about the National Lottery biggrin

I think you may also be judging the church by its obsolescence in modern life. A significant part of what is now done by the state and by secular charities was once the remit of the church. I'm not looking to apologise for religion, but I think you are missing the point that it's just one of the ways that power has been wielded and wealth extracted. And equally, I'm not against capitalism, but holding it up as a better example in terms of the exploitation of the masses is - well, good luck finding the clean end of that turd.


jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
Blue Mosque, Istanbul
I keep being told that Istanbul is an amazing City to visit - what's the safety situation like now?
Amazing, imo, is an understatement. I was more impressed by it than I was by the Vatican (which is also one of the favourite destinations). The people, the food, the architecture, absolutely fantastic. As for situation right now, I don't know, haven't been in a while, I guess Jockers would know more.

sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
sidicks said:
jjlynn27 said:
Blue Mosque, Istanbul
I keep being told that Istanbul is an amazing City to visit - what's the safety situation like now?
Amazing, imo, is an understatement. I was more impressed by it than I was by the Vatican (which is also one of the favourite destinations). The people, the food, the architecture, absolutely fantastic. As for situation right now, I don't know, haven't been in a while, I guess Jockers would know more.
The government website isn't particularly comforting in this regard:
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/turkey

I think I'll pass for now and hope things improve wink

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
otolith said:
Funk said:
otolith said:
It's a fair point that these massive collective endeavours - whether driven by religion or by government or by philanthropy - represent effort that could have been used to improve lives in other ways and wealth that was collected in some way that was inequitable. Whether we're talking about Egyptian pyramids, cathedrals, mosques, royal palaces, opera houses, football stadia, skyscrapers or Bugatti Veyrons. But would the world be a better place without them?
As Derek mentions above, there's a massive difference to buildings which were built for profit (football stadia, skyscrapers, Veyrons etc) using private funding etc and buildings such as churches, mosques etc which were built for showing 'the glory of xyz deity' etc, often at huge physical and financial cost to the poorest at the time.
I'm not sure how profit matters. People build these buildings because someone has the power to make it so. The craftsmen and labourers are paid. The money is acquired by a range of means - rich men, the church's own fundraising, kings using public funding. So yes, there is the question of how sufficient wealth to pay for a cathedral or a mosque gets concentrated in the hands of the men who make it so. Well, how does sufficient wealth to build something like Trump Tower get into the hands of someone like Trump? How does enough money to build the Millennium Dome get into the hands of Blair? Is a monument to a rich man's ego inherently more noble than one to his theist delusions?

Humans do lots of things which are fundamentally pointless other than that someone is willing or can be made to pay for them to happen. How many of us spend our lives in jobs which are ultimately just as pointless as constructing a piece of architecture?
Not really. The great cathedrals were built with money and labour which the people who provided it couldn’t really spare.

The cathedrals were built on, for want of better words, slavery and coercion.

The church cynically exploited its ‘monopoly’ position and mercilessly wrung money and labour out of the poor people it claimed to be protecting. Thus ensuring their ongoing poverty.

They are very tall though, so there’s that.


Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
Burwood said:
His bks hehe I assume you include his work on evolutionary Biology?

May I just point out that what you said in the opening lines (3rd) is fking bks. He can't prove his lack of faith? Come again? I assure you he can.

The old 'you can't prove god doesn't exist' line is peddled by thick people who don't realise you can't disprove something that doesn't exist. It's not possible.

Reminds me of my FIL who scoffed at a scientist who claimed Dinosaurs did not live with humans. To which he replied, how would they know, were they there. I looked at him like, I hope your daughter got more brains from her mother.
Damn. As I read his diatribe, I perked up at the suggestion Dawkins couldn't prove his lack of faith.

He's got to be a troll, hasn't he?


jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
sidicks said:
The government website isn't particularly comforting in this regard:
https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/turkey

I think I'll pass for now and hope things improve wink
If / when they do, don't go for less than 7 days for the first trip. You'll feel rushed, and if you do, you'll miss on the point of being there.


sidicks

25,218 posts

220 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
If / when they do, don't go for less than 7 days for the first trip. You'll feel rushed, and if you do, you'll miss on the point of being there.
beer

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
I don't believe in any religion. I think they are all man-made and therefor nonsensical. However, I don't want to be classified as an atheist. It suggests some sort of club, a group. I don't go to meetings for mutual reinforcement of no feelings about it. I don't ask for special considerations from government, employers and laws so why do I need a label? I don't engage in plane spotting but I don't classify myself as a non-plane spotter.

(As an aside, I think the most pleasant group of people, the least aggressive, the most cooperative, the most sensitive to others - if you didn't want to know about planes, they didn't mention them - mob that I've known were plane spotters, and I came across a few when working at Gatwick. Move along please, and they would.)

I think we should reclaim the word pagan. All it really means is that such a person does not follow the local mores regarding religion. It doesn't go beyond that.

One can't be accused of believing in paganism as there is no creed. (Nor is there for atheism either, I know, but it affronts the religious so they make out we do.) We could be New Pagans. A bit like new labour - no one knew what it meant because it didn't mean anything.

We New Pagans could have buildings to go to in order not worship anyone/thing. We could have readings from books with blank pages. We could sing songs with no words. We could also, and here's a good one, have two sabbaths so regain a weekend.

Pagans, or rather New Pagans, of the world unite. You have nothing to lose. You've got nothing to gaineither, but it doesn't bother the religious so shouldn't bother us.

Reverting, rather reluctantly, to the OP, I can't say I particularly like bell ringing. There's no rhythm that I can differentiate. It's a cacophony. But Dawkins is fully entitled to like it in the same way as he's within his rights to dislike other forms of calling to prayer/church/weddings.


SamR380

725 posts

119 months

Wednesday 18th July 2018
quotequote all
I had a stop-over in Istanbul courtesy of Turkish Airlines a few years ago. I was amazed when I heard the call to prayer from one of the big mosques, I actually stopped in the street just to listen to it. Some of the calls in the back-woods town I was working in weren't quite so pleasant though.